Name Origins... And Vikings!

Is Brandon's name "Mroz" a shortened version of the Russian name "Morozov"?

Mathman said:

Is Brandon's name "Mroz" a shortened version of the Russian name "Morozov"?

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Yes, only it is in Polish. Both words come from the pre-Slavic word "morz" (normal, hard "r" - like spanish or russian "r" not the weird sound you guys call "r" , and distinct solid "z" after that) In Polish, it transformed into "mroz", in Russian "moroz". Both, and original, mean "frost".

The ending "ov" that you can often see in Russian last names indicates belonging. This is the old Russian equivalent of " 's ". For example, some ancestor was nicknamed Moroz and he was so cool/rich/popular in a village that they said about his son like "It's Ivan, Moroz's son". And so there was a surname "Morozov"(Moroz's, Frost's)

Orlov said:

Yes, only it is in Polish. Both words come from the pre-Slavic word "morz" (normal, hard "r" - like spanish or russian "r" not the weird sound you guys call "r" , and distinct solid "z" after that) In Polish, it transformed into "mroz", in Russian "moroz". Both, and original, mean "frost".

The ending "ov" that you can often see in Russian last names indicates belonging. This is the old Russian equivalent of " 's ". For example, some ancestor was nicknamed Moroz and he was so cool/rich/popular in the village that they said about his son like "It's Ivan, Moroz's son". And so there was a surname "Morozov"(Moroz's, Frost's)

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In Bulgarian the word is "mraz".

Ah, and we are always struck by Vladimir's red hair, dour expression and pasty complexion, and had devised an alternative etymology, as a Russification of the Scottish surname of Morrow.

Orlov said:

Yes, only it is in Polish. Both words come from the pre-Slavic word "morz" (normal, hard "r" - like spanish or russian "r" not the weird sound you guys call "r" , and distinct solid "z" after that) In Polish, it transformed into "mroz", in Russian "moroz". Both, and original, mean "frost".

The ending "ov" that you can often see in Russian last names indicates belonging. This is the old Russian equivalent of " 's ". For example, some ancestor was nicknamed Moroz and he was so cool/rich/popular in the village that they said about his son like "It's Ivan, Moroz's son". And so there was a surname "Morozov"(Moroz's, Frost's)

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Thank you so much, Orlov. I always love these stories about name meanings and derivatives.

pesto said:

Ah, and we are always struck by Vladimir's red hair, dour expression and pasty complexion, and had devised an alternative etymology, as a Russification of the Scottish surname of Morrow.

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Hey, I claimed Vladimir Morozov as an Irishman years ago, due to his physical appearance fitting the Irish stereotype perfectly.

And if you read on down that Wikipedia page, you'll see that we have Morrows too! :agree:

So, I'm not letting the Jocks try to steal him off us!



CaroLiza_fan

CaroLiza_fan said:

Hey, I claimed Vladimir Morozov as an Irishman years ago, due to his physical appearance fitting the Irish stereotype perfectly.

And if you read on down that Wikipedia page, you'll see that we have Morrows too! :agree:

So, I'm not letting the Jocks try to steal him off us!



CaroLiza_fan

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There has been so much movement over the centuries between Scotland and Ireland - both the red hair and the Morrow surname and that angular boniness that Vlad possesses have a common source.:agree:

pesto said:

There has been so much movement over the centuries between Scotland and Ireland - both the red hair and the Morrow surname and that angular boniness that Vlad possesses have a common source.:agree:

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. Yup

Vikings
https://wildeyedsoutherncelt.com/celtic-red-hair-from-vikings/

They were in Russia too.
http://factsanddetails.com/russia/History/sub9_1a/entry-4932.html

And Ukraine, for that matter
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?ParagraphID=eid

pesto said:

There has been so much movement over the centuries between Scotland and Ireland - both the red hair and the Morrow surname and that angular boniness that Vlad possesses have a common source.:agree:

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That is so true. I am nearly sure I have Scottish blood in me, because of my maternal Grandmother's maiden name (it's the name of a well-known Scottish clan). But, I have no idea how far back it was that they came over to Ireland.

And there was recently a well good example of this close relationship in Ice Dance - the Kerrs have an Irish Mum and a Scottish Dad.

So, given that the Scotland got the Kerrs, I think it's only fair that we get Vladimir Morozov (and, by extension, Evgenia Tarasova). :agree:

OK, I think we better wrap up this fun conversation, before we get told off for going so far off-topic.

CaroLiza_fan

dorispulaski said:

. Yup

Vikings
https://wildeyedsoutherncelt.com/celtic-red-hair-from-vikings/

They were in Russia too.
http://factsanddetails.com/russia/History/sub9_1a/entry-4932.html

And Ukraine, for that matter
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?ParagraphID=eid

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Just wanted to add that I have long reckoned that a lot of the differences that can be seen in the British Isles are down to the Vikings. Because the Vikings that came to Ireland and Scotland were mostly Norwegain, while the Vikings that came to England and Wales were mostly Danish.

Although I had never thought about it before, I wonder if you can make the same distinctions in those areas of Eastern Europe that Vikings travelled to.

Is Vladimir descended from Norwegian Vikings?

It's an interesting thought.

Sorry for going off-topic again.

CaroLiza_fan

CaroLiza_fan said:

Just wanted to add that I have long reckoned that a lot of the differences that can be seen in the British Isles are down to the Vikings. Because the Vikings that came to Ireland and Scotland were mostly Norwegain, while the Vikings that came to England and Wales were mostly Danish.

Although I had never thought about it before, I wonder if you can make the same distinctions in those areas of Eastern Europe that Vikings travelled to.

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Alas, Vikings left surprisingly little genetic heritage from their stay on the British Isles - at least according to a couple of studies within the past 5 years (each sounds fairly solid and they are so recent that the latest developments in the field have probably been noted). Here's one from 2015 covering the UK and studying genetics of rural Brits: https://www.nature.com/news/british-isles-mapped-out-by-genetic-ancestry-1.17136 Another study gone into preprint this summer goes into the genetics of the Viking period and finds that the picture is not that simple, with influences going back and forth between Scandinavia and different parts of Europe (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/07/17/703405.full.pdf). Their remarks on the modern population is less extensive, but includes a short section on pigmentation - the source areas are already so mixed that no direct link btw eg light haired and blue eyed can be made with the Scandinavian ancestry. The third study focuses on Scotland and the isles around it (https://www.pnas.org/content/116/38...wkD2P_lUDAiSmlfHxi2xqWYFqqx5VMSK87ZbxZI6-M6kk) and the current situation and they confirm what the 2015 study said, that Orkneys and Shetlands are clearly different from the mainland Britain (if such a word can be used for that island!) with lots of genetic material from Scandiavia (they talk about Norwegians, not Danes). No similar studies exists for Russia or the countries along the Viking trade routes (and it might be difficult to do a similar study considering the recent unheavals in the populations of those areas).

Sorry, just let myself get carried way a little there.

E

I loved that little piece of history Eppen. So, being the greedy type, what about the Normans in Sicily and the South of Italy? I know, the Normans came from France, but they settled there originally as Norsemen. (In fact in Sicily tour guides often talk about Norsemen when they actually are referring to Normans). Of course they also went to England in 1066 AD, (which would probably deserve a whole post by itself), but I've always been fascinated by the relatively abundance of blondes (true colour, not dyed) in Sicily. Yeah, off topic, though fascinating.

If Vikings did not manage to make a dent in the genetic makeup of the British Isles except for the Orkneys and Shetlands, then Normans in Sicily had even less of a chance. And I would assume that the Viking genes in Normans would also be already low based on that same comparison. Could not find studies on genetic signatures in Normandy, but for Sicily the Greek component and North Africa seem to be strongish. Also, the pigmentation part was considered a non-starter based on strongly varying pigmentation in the Scandinavian area (not all of them are blond and blue-eyed!).

But a couple of studies here. This one is in general about Italian genomes and their differences with some vague suggestions as to their varying origins: https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015233 Another one focuses on the period of Greek colonization from around 1000-400 BCE and the connection there seems to be clear https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015124

The Mediterranean is much more difficult than the British Isles in this respect because traffic from all directions has been going on for the entire history of human kind... Early hominids from the south or maybe east (the oldest early humans have been found from Spain), Neandertals, modern humans 40-50 000 years ago, then everything that went on after that.

Sicily had an indigenous population before the Greeks came - Roman history books give us sevaral names and maybe languages. There were Punic settlements from North Africa about the same time as the Greeks were there, then the Romans with their own mix of genetics (a new article on that https://www.genengnews.com/news/dna...c-crossroads-of-europe-and-the-mediterranean/), then what happened during the Migration period after the Roman Empire collapsed (Vandals from the north), followed by arabs again from North Africa, then Normans. And whatever has happened after that... So, shortish occupation with probably relatively small numbers of settlers (apart from the Greeks who came in large numbers)?

The probablity of blondness and blue eyes disappearing is also very great - I don't know what Camden Pulkinen's Finnish ancestors looked like, but he sure could not be mistaken for a Finn (the surname is pure Finnish apart from the second k that has been dropped, Pulkkinen is the original). The same with Meghan Duhamel whose grandmother is Finnish.

E

Eppen you may be interested in this article on Camden: https://www.goldenskate.com/2018/10/camden-pulkinen/

States that his mom is born in Thailand and his dad is Finnish and French.

eppen said:

Alas, Vikings left surprisingly little genetic heritage from their stay on the British Isles - at least according to a couple of studies within the past 5 years (each sounds fairly solid and they are so recent that the latest developments in the field have probably been noted). Here's one from 2015 covering the UK and studying genetics of rural Brits: https://www.nature.com/news/british-isles-mapped-out-by-genetic-ancestry-1.17136 Another study gone into preprint this summer goes into the genetics of the Viking period and finds that the picture is not that simple, with influences going back and forth between Scandinavia and different parts of Europe (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/07/17/703405.full.pdf). Their remarks on the modern population is less extensive, but includes a short section on pigmentation - the source areas are already so mixed that no direct link btw eg light haired and blue eyed can be made with the Scandinavian ancestry. The third study focuses on Scotland and the isles around it (https://www.pnas.org/content/116/38...wkD2P_lUDAiSmlfHxi2xqWYFqqx5VMSK87ZbxZI6-M6kk) and the current situation and they confirm what the 2015 study said, that Orkneys and Shetlands are clearly different from the mainland Britain (if such a word can be used for that island!) with lots of genetic material from Scandiavia (they talk about Norwegians, not Danes). No similar studies exists for Russia or the countries along the Viking trade routes (and it might be difficult to do a similar study considering the recent unheavals in the populations of those areas).

Sorry, just let myself get carried way a little there.

E

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Many thanks for sharing this E...

Haha, Vladimir Morozov looks perfectly Russian to me. The red hair is probably from some Volga Finn admixture.

What I don't understand is the reverse: why do so many Scottish people look Russian? There have been so many times I've been sure some athlete or celebrity is part Russian, and then they turn out to have no documented Eastern European ancestry at all but are ALWAYS all or part Scottish.

So topic:, I know but it is early am.. i get up to check on animals, etc.. and often log on to GS before going back to sleep.. usually with 3 cats..haha..
When you get to North America, results are even more strung out..
My own DNA results have been updated twice and show Russian, Eastern European, Balkan origins (Mum) then Engand, Scotland, Ireland, Norwegian (Dad); first test revealed 1-2 percent European Jewish... the second update included 1-2 percent Congo, Camaroon, Southern Bantu people.. amazing!! Given that what I know for sure about my family history is accurate, the rest must be too.. comparing results among immediate family members is a surprise in that there are wide-ranging differences among the closest of us.... we are all varying shades of blond with light (not blue) eyes.. at a younger age I would have killed for red hair but it all turns gray in the end..

elbkup said:

So topic:, I know but it is early am.. i get up to check on animals, etc.. and often log on to GS before going back to sleep.. usually with 3 cats..haha..
When you get to North America, results are even more strung out..
My own DNA results have been updated twice and show Russian, Eastern European, Balkan origins (Mum) then Engand, Scotland, Ireland, Norwegian (Dad); first test revealed 1-2 percent European Jewish... the second update included 1-2 percent Congo, Camaroon, Southern Bantu people.. amazing!! Given that what I know for sure about my family history is accurate, the rest must be too.. comparing results among immediate family members is a surprise in that there are wide-ranging differences among the closest of us.... we are all varying shades of blond with light (not blue) eyes.. at a younger age I would have killed for red hair but it all turns gray in the end..

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Everybody in my family has brown hair and brown eyes. Every single member. With the exception of yours truly, who was born white blonde (eventually went through red to dark and is now stylishly streaked with silver) and with very, very green eyes. Yeah, that was fun in genetics class at school...

hanyuufan5 said:

Haha, Vladimir Morozov looks perfectly Russian to me. The red hair is probably from some Volga Finn admixture.

What I don't understand is the reverse: why do so many Scottish people look Russian? There have been so many times I've been sure some athlete or celebrity is part Russian, and then they turn out to have no documented Eastern European ancestry at all but are ALWAYS all or part Scottish.

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Possibly because the Rus' were originally a Scandinavian tribe and also there were Rus' vikings? So maybe more of them were involved with raiding (and trading) with Scots, and it's a holdover. Kind of like there's a hypothesis that English's weird use of "do' (for instance "Do you smoke?" "No, I don't smoke.") is a holdover from the Celtics/Welsh people who were the before the Vikings and Normans because the only other language that uses "Do" is that way is Celtic.

Actually, if you think about it, Vladimir Morozov has a pretty "russian" name (at least "Hollywood russian" )

Lord of the World, son of the Frost

WednesdayMarch said:

Everybody in my family has brown hair and brown eyes. Every single member. With the exception of yours truly, who was born white blonde (eventually went through red to dark and is now stylishly streaked with silver) and with very, very green eyes. Yeah, that was fun in genetics class at school...

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Lol, my family is mostly blond, blue-eyed babies who very, very, very gradually become brunettes or redheads with gray, green, or hazel eyes. Those genetics lessons had me seething about why the :curse: they were teaching us incorrect/oversimplifed information.