Quad Axel

tafattsbarn · Dec 18, 2019

skylark said:
I don't know if Yuzuru's said that, pretty much or outright, but I'll take your word for it.

But I did read a translation of an interview with him this past year (it was a link from one of our GS threads, but sorry, I didn't keep the link) when Yuzuru was asked why he continues to compete. His answer was (paraphrasing) that he wanted to continue to express the programs that only he could express.

I thought that was a great answer, and really the only good answer in my opinion. I love the idea that he continues because he can express such beautiful programs, balanced, artistic, musical, and technically superb. When he can do that, I don't know why he'd want to put himself at such high risk just to do another jump. Of course, I'm not him. But I don't enjoy his programs nearly as much when he's so focused on the jumps that he sacrifices some of the beauty and connection. JMO.

I remember him saying/confessing after worlds that last season he had just wanted to land the 4A and then retire. Obviously this plan was derailed when he got injured. Now his motivation seems to be a mix between the 4A and beating Nathan. I also thought the answer he gave that you listed is a very nice one. It's basically what i as a fan want for him too and hopefully he can find a blanace between all these things he's mentioned.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Dec 18, 2019

Charlotte 71 said:
I don't like to be a pooper, but these are scary attempts. I hate the way his head and neck are whipping around on these falls. It is exciting to see these attempts, and of all the skaters in the world, I'd put my bet on him, but I don't think it's worth it. He's at least a quarter turn short and doesn't seem to have control of the rotation to safely practice these. I hope he'll prove me wrong, since he seems determined to do it, but I'm scared for him.

Agreed. To attempt it because the coach was away so the skater's gonna play was poor judgment and frankly kind of immature for a veteran like him. The fact that some people are encouraging him for having done that is not being a good fan, given the recklessness of it and potential danger. It was a practice - it wouldn't have even been ratified.

Brian was quite measured in his response "I wouldn't have suggested he do that. But he's a man on a mission with that jump." -- but I'm pretty sure in his mind he wanted to say something more like "continuing with those hard fall attempts because he wasn't being supervised was exceedingly foolish and disrespectful to the coaching relationship... not to mention also compromised his FS".

What if he had injured himself? He would have been alone having to deal with that with no coach to be there for him (although, I'm sure some of the same people encouraging the attempts would have blamed Brian/Ghislain's absence for allowing him to get injured if that had happened :rolleye:

).

CanadianSkaterGuy · Dec 18, 2019

KatGrace1925 said:
He could probably move some more difficult jumping passes to the second half, there are likely a handful of jump combos he could do. I know he did a 3S where he had intended to do a 3Flip at the grand prix final. The 4Lo could make a comeback, maybe a second 4Ltz. I feel like there's room it's just risk vs reward cause he could likely still win with the current layout if Hanyu shows up to worlds without the stamina to pull out all the technical content he plans.

His SP could also easily have the 4F+3T thrown in there which he did in his FS.

A 4A wouldn't make up for that though, if Chen adds a 4F+3T to his SP and swaps the 3S with 3F or adds in a 4L. I like Nathan's FS layout now though (save for swapping the 3S with the 3F). I'm not sure how Hanyu would incorporate a 4A into his existing layout - I assume it would replace the 4L but then where would that go?

discode · Dec 18, 2019

Raf implied moving jumps around, adding the 4lz and 4F later. More combos in the 2nd half is also pretty obvious. He actually only did one combo in the 2nd half, the 3lz3T. He was pretty obviously working on 4lz3T in the SP as well, though I kinda like the 4T3T, 4lz in the SP. He could do 4F3T, 4lz too. There's just so much Nathan could do. Raf also mentioned 4lo and mysterious things Nathan is working on in practice, but not bothering to show yet. :laugh:

Anyway, back the 4A it's not much more than a 4lz. It'll be an amazing moment for it to be landed in competition, but I'm not sure it's enough to win anything. Especially since Yuzu is going to run of stamina well before Nathan does. Though I don't think that's the point of him working on the jump.

eaglehelang · Dec 18, 2019

I thought it's already been established long ago that Yuzuru wants to be the 1st one the land the 4A. He announced it after 2018 Olympics.
Yuzuru has said the 4A is harder than he expected.

So, the 4A is not for points, it's to make history.
Similar to the 4T+3A combo last season, it's less points due to the sequence but Yuzuru did anyway cos well, nobody else does it.

kolyadafan2002 · Dec 19, 2019

I could see nathan going for a 4-4 if shoma uno does 3A+4T. The main issue would be Nathan's flow going from the first jump. However nathan may have enough strength to make up for that. 4-4 would be a game changer, as he could use that in the sp to put him a quad ahead.

I have similar views on hanyus 4A. What I deeply suspect might happen is he tries it and falls, and it ruins his FP, and then somebody else might go and land it, whilst hanyu is left injured and without the gold medal.
If he wants it badly he will go for it,
However looking at the ankle alignment on the landing some things are not meant to be.
I hope he proves me wrong though.

monidi · Dec 19, 2019

kolyadafan2002 said:
I could see nathan going for a 4-4 if shoma uno does 3A+4T. The main issue would be Nathan's flow going from the first jump. However nathan may have enough strength to make up for that. 4-4 would be a game changer, as he could use that in the sp to put him a quad ahead.

I have similar views on hanyus 4A. What I deeply suspect might happen is he tries it and falls, and it ruins his FP, and then somebody else might go and land it, whilst hanyu is left injured and without the gold medal.
If he wants it badly he will go for it,
However looking at the ankle alignment on the landing some things are not meant to be.
I hope he proves me wrong though.

Currently a 4-4 combo is not allowed in SP. See page 19 in ISU's handbook:
https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/sandp-handbooks-faq/17594-tp-handbook-singles-2018-19/file

kolyadafan2002 · Dec 19, 2019

monidi said:
Currently a 4-4 combo is not allowed in SP. See page 19 in ISU's handbook:
https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/sandp-handbooks-faq/17594-tp-handbook-singles-2018-19/file

Ah sorry my bad you're right!

I guess though it could be used to slip another quad into the program.
If he did let's say: 4Lz, 4F+3T, 4F , 4Lo, 4S+Eu+3S, 4T+4T, 3A

CanadianSkaterGuy · Dec 19, 2019

kolyadafan2002 said:
I could see nathan going for a 4-4 if shoma uno does 3A+4T. The main issue would be Nathan's flow going from the first jump. However nathan may have enough strength to make up for that. 4-4 would be a game changer, as he could use that in the sp to put him a quad ahead.

I have similar views on hanyus 4A. What I deeply suspect might happen is he tries it and falls, and it ruins his FP, and then somebody else might go and land it, whilst hanyu is left injured and without the gold medal.
If he wants it badly he will go for it,
However looking at the ankle alignment on the landing some things are not meant to be.
I hope he proves me wrong though.

I think Nathan actually could do a 4-4 but he will take care of his body and not just rashly try to acquire an element that could injure himself.

I think that injury at US nationals on the foolish quad attempt years ago was an important learning experience for him, and his maturity was bolstered by that. You can see he takes care of his body and doesn’t take unnecessary risks or even max his difficulty when he doesn’t need to. He realizes the Olympics changing his plan from Raf compromised his medal chances, even gold. He learns from his mistakes.

Hanyu evidently isn’t particularly concerned about trying the 4A and how it could affect his healthiness or chances of winning. He just wants to land it for the history and personal challenge, which is respectable and understandable even if pretty rash.

From a practicality standpoint, he did 5 quads and ran out of gas and couldn't do a 3A. A 4A will take up more energy and puts the rest of the program at risk. Dmitriev’s 4A was << but at least it looked like a measured, thoughtful attempt. Those GPF coachless practice attempts by Hanyu were downright scary 4As. I would be very very very surprised if he brings the 4A to Worlds because it can really compromise his World title chances; as much as people love to fantasize about 6-quad layouts with it, you have to be pragmatic.

Like the GPF, don’t complain about the result when he goes for a 4A and it compromises other elements (like his 3A-3A). He did that costly error himself - the blame is not Chen’s, not the judges’, not Brian’s.

It’s also so paradoxical to me how so many will bemoan injuries plaguing him and pray for him to stay healthy, while simultaneously encouraging him to go for a 4A, and cheering over how “close” his GPF kamikaze practice attempts were. :disapp:

champagnerain · Dec 19, 2019

kolyadafan2002 said:
Ah sorry my bad you're right!

I guess though it could be used to slip another quad into the program.
If he did let's say: 4Lz, 4F+3T, 4F , 4Lo, 4S+Eu+3S, 4T+4T, 3A

Actually, that's not allowed with current rules either. In the FP, you're allowed to repeat two triple or quad jumps, but only one of the repetitions can be a quad. Thus, the second 4T attempt would be called invalid and get zero points (because the 4F was already repeated).

EDIT: BTW, this rule is on page 18 of the handbook in case you wanted to check.

yulikali · Dec 19, 2019

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
It’s also so paradoxical to me how so many will bemoan injuries plaguing him and pray for him to stay healthy, while simultaneously encouraging him to go for a 4A, and cheering over how “close” his GPF kamikaze practice attempts were. :disapp:

I don't get what you mean. Probably that he needs to be discouraged from trying the 4A? Well, learning any hard jump comes with the risk of injuries. And of course no one wants to see a skater injured. However, that doesn't mean we can't cheer for the technical progress that is happening. If everyone played it safe, skaters would be jumping only doubles today still.

luckyu2 · Dec 19, 2019

I had the feelings that some random skater may land the first 4A eventually. In order to do that, he needs to get to the height like Yuzu and combine with Nathan's fast rotation.
Obviously my impression was based on Yuzu's GPF practice attempt. I remember seeing some report says he already landed 4A successfully in practice before. If that is true, Yuzu may be the man.

eaglehelang · Dec 19, 2019

Yuzuru's point of view is different from the other men. He has won all the major titles, with 2 OG Golds safely tucked under his belt.

Hence the next goal, 4A, announced shortly after 2018 OG was over, even before the gala.
So, Yuzuru will go for it, he has publically announced since almost 2 years ago . Every competition he is asked abt it.

Thing is, in the process, his ankle got injured a 2nd time and delayed the 4A training. If not mistaken, he planned to land the 4A last season, 2018/2019. Then he got injured.
Plus he hates losing. Like Javier said, it's either winning titles or 4A, Yuzuru has to choose.

So, priority has gone back to the 4A. Land it, get it ractified, over and done with.

As for risks, ever since the quad craze started, there are always risks with quads. Yuzuru would not have won 2 OG Golds without taking risks, esp in 2018 with his injured ankle.
So yeah, he's rash, he does crazy things while others play safe.

kolyadafan2002 · Dec 19, 2019

champagnerain said:
Actually, that's not allowed with current rules either. In the FP, you're allowed to repeat two triple or quad jumps, but only one of the repetitions can be a quad. Thus, the second 4T attempt would be called invalid and get zero points (because the 4F was already repeated).

EDIT: BTW, this rule is on page 18 of the handbook in case you wanted to check.

Ah thank you once again.
I suppose it would however allow him to execute quads in more jumping passes if he decided to repeat the 3A though (assuming he could do 3A+4T?).
E.g: 4Lz,4F,4S,4Lo,4T,3A,3A+4T.
Just a shame his 3A isnt strong enough for a 3A+4T (yet).

I've come to the conclusion a 4-4 is pretty useless unless the ISU change the rules (e.g allowing in the sp, or allowing to repeat 2 quads).

champagnerain · Dec 19, 2019

kolyadafan2002 said:
Ah thank you once again.
I suppose it would however allow him to execute quads in more jumping passes if he decided to repeat the 3A though (assuming he could do 3A+4T?).
E.g: 4Lz,4F,4S,4Lo,4T,3A,3A+4T.
Just a shame his 3A isnt strong enough for a 3A+4T (yet).

I've come to the conclusion a 4-4 is pretty useless unless the ISU change the rules (e.g allowing in the sp, or allowing to repeat 2 quads).

IIRC Nathan said at the GPF press conference that he isn't going to go back to training the 4Lo because he thinks the jump is scary and doesn't like it. That said, didn't Hanyu say that he is also training a 4F? So in a theoretical situation in which Hanyu got both a 4F and a 4A into a FP - he did say that he wants to one day do a FP with all six varieties of quads - I imagine that Nathan might change his tune and go back to training the 4Lo, since he's obviously capable of landing it.

I have my doubts as to whether Hanyu could possibly build up the stamina to do a FP with all six varieties of quads and actually land them all - after all, we saw how drained he was with a five quad layout without a 4A or a 4F, and that's when they had a day off between the SP and the FS. Hanyu might have been a bit less tired if he hadn't decided that, without a coach to stop him, he'd spend that day between merrily practicing 4A's, but in a theoretical future in which he starts landing the 4A and putting it in his program, it's inevitable that he'll probably be exhausted from trying to practice and maintain five varieties of quads - or six if he starts adding a 4F too.

Either way, if the men continue their quad race, I think the ISU will eventually have to rethink the rules about a 4+4 in the SP and maybe also allow both repetitions in the FS to be quads instead of just one, just like they're probably going to have to allow ladies to do a quad in the SP at some point. With the current rules, a 4+4 isn't all that useful unless you do have all 6 varieties of quads and the stamina to do all of them and include a 4+4 (which is maybe why there seems less talk about people trying it), but if the athletes keep pushing the boundaries, presumably the ISU will have to respond in kind.

skylark · Dec 19, 2019

discode said:
Raf implied moving jumps around, adding the 4lz and 4F later. More combos in the 2nd half is also pretty obvious. He actually only did one combo in the 2nd half, the 3lz3T. He was pretty obviously working on 4lz3T in the SP as well, though I kinda like the 4T3T, 4lz in the SP. He could do 4F3T, 4lz too. There's just so much Nathan could do. Raf also mentioned 4lo and mysterious things Nathan is working on in practice, but not bothering to show yet.
.

I think Nathan likes to keep his options open. He doesn't let anyone pin him down on exactly what jumps he's going to do, or when. Ondrej asked him in the post GPF interview (of course, nearly everyone does) what his plans are going forward. Nathan said, (paraphrasing) we'll be working on new things, but for now I'd just like to enjoy the moment.

I think that's why he and Raf leave it up to Raf to hint around at what jumps, and when. Goodness knows Nathan's one of the most disciplined persons in the sport, maybe on the planet! So he likes to keep a space of freedom in his mind. Of course, I'm not him and I don't know what he's thinking, so that is JMO.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
I think Nathan actually could do a 4-4 but he will take care of his body and not just rashly try to acquire an element that could injure himself.

I think that injury at US nationals on the foolish quad attempt years ago was an important learning experience for him, and his maturity was bolstered by that. You can see he takes care of his body and doesn’t take unnecessary risks or even max his difficulty when he doesn’t need to. He realizes the Olympics changing his plan from Raf compromised his medal chances, even gold. He learns from his mistakes.

I totally agree.

Like the GPF, don’t complain about the result when he goes for a 4A and it compromises other elements (like his 3A-3A). He did that costly error himself - the blame is not Chen’s, not the judges’, not Brian’s.

It’s also so paradoxical to me how so many will bemoan injuries plaguing him and pray for him to stay healthy, while simultaneously encouraging him to go for a 4A, and cheering over how “close” his GPF kamikaze practice attempts were.

I also agree with this. But there are many things about Yuzuru's fans, and the effects of his behavior on theirs, that puzzle me.

OT: by the way, are the :agree: and :2thumbs: icons meant to agree wholeheartedly, or to agree with a wink and a nod, thereby indicating some joke or tongue-in-cheek?

CanadianSkaterGuy · Dec 19, 2019

yulikali said:
I don't get what you mean. Probably that he needs to be discouraged from trying the 4A? Well, learning any hard jump comes with the risk of injuries. And of course no one wants to see a skater injured. However, that doesn't mean we can't cheer for the technical progress that is happening. If everyone played it safe, skaters would be jumping only doubles today still.

I just mean if people were concerned with his safety they would be more concerned about him doing those continuous 4A fall attempts, but it seems several of them are lauding him for having tried it at the GPF practice (without a coach and continuing to wipe out thereby putting his body at risk). It's one thing to try it in a controlled practice setting with a coach, but to do it to please the fans in the middle of practice right before a FSwas pretty irresponsible of him. And indeed, it compromised the FS which he had yet to skate.

At least Nathan's quad attempt where he got injured was during a gala, but it was also still so foolish to go rogue like that just to please the fans or have something newsworthy.

I hope Brian/Ghislain/Tracy/etc. had a conversation about it with Hanyu to the effect of -- it's fine if you pursue the 4A, but let's be there to guide you and ensure that you stay safe. Time and a place for everything -- he's 25, and should have the maturity, experience and wherewithal to be more cognizant of the risks and inherent recklessness in continually attempting a 4A because he isn't being supervised.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Dec 19, 2019

champagnerain said:
IIRC Nathan said at the GPF press conference that he isn't going to go back to training the 4Lo because he thinks the jump is scary and doesn't like it. That said, didn't Hanyu say that he is also training a 4F? So in a theoretical situation in which Hanyu got both a 4F and a 4A into a FP - he did say that he wants to one day do a FP with all six varieties of quads - I imagine that Nathan might change his tune and go back to training the 4Lo, since he's obviously capable of landing it.

I have my doubts as to whether Hanyu could possibly build up the stamina to do a FP with all six varieties of quads and actually land them all - after all, we saw how drained he was with a five quad layout without a 4A or a 4F, and that's when they had a day off between the SP and the FS. Hanyu might have been a bit less tired if he hadn't decided that, without a coach to stop him, he'd spend that day between merrily practicing 4A's, but in a theoretical future in which he starts landing the 4A and putting it in his program, it's inevitable that he'll probably be exhausted from trying to practice and maintain five varieties of quads - or six if he starts adding a 4F too.

Either way, if the men continue their quad race, I think the ISU will eventually have to rethink the rules about a 4+4 in the SP and maybe also allow both repetitions in the FS to be quads instead of just one, just like they're probably going to have to allow ladies to do a quad in the SP at some point. With the current rules, a 4+4 isn't all that useful unless you do have all 6 varieties of quads and the stamina to do all of them and include a 4+4 (which is maybe why there seems less talk about people trying it), but if the athletes keep pushing the boundaries, presumably the ISU will have to respond in kind.

Well that's the intriguing thing. Nathan HAS landed a 4L, but doesn't throw it in there just to be the first to do 5 different quads in a FS. He acknowledges it's "scary" and is being conscientious of his limitations at the moment. Hanyu is still a way's away from a fully rotated + upright quad axel, so if I were Nathan I'd just do my thing, and only upgrade if it ever becomes an issue (which is a strong unlikelihood). Hanyu has shown he can do 5 quads, but he hasn't shown the ability to do a clean, full-energy FS with 5 quads, so Chen's still got quite a comfortable cushion if he just stays his course. It's Hanyu who has to play catch up now.

champagnerain · Dec 19, 2019

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Well that's the intriguing thing. Nathan HAS landed a 4L, but doesn't throw it in there just to be the first to do 5 different quads in a FS. He acknowledges it's "scary" and is being conscientious of his limitations at the moment. Hanyu is still a way's away from a fully rotated + upright quad axel, so if I were Nathan I'd just do my thing, and only upgrade if it ever becomes an issue (which is a strong unlikelihood). Hanyu has shown he can do 5 quads, but he hasn't shown the ability to do a clean, full-energy FS with 5 quads, so Chen's still got quite a comfortable cushion if he just stays his course. It's Hanyu who has to play catch up now.

I think Hanyu's public 4A attempts have made some fans rather overexcited. I'd agree that he looks pretty far from being able to land it in competition (even if he said he hadn't been attempting it in practice much recently, so maybe the attempts would have been closer if he had) - and even if he does, there's no guarantee that his other jumps won't suffer due to less training time on his other quads, general fatigue and stamina issues, etc. Nathan has been very consistent since the Olympics, and I'd imagine he probably knows that an attempt to add in a 4Lo (a jump he has landed in the past but admittedly dislikes) might threaten his consistency - which is certainly part of what has helped keep him ahead of Hanyu, who has had trouble putting together two clean programs when he goes up against Nathan.

It can certainly be fun/interesting to do all the math about theoretical layouts Nathan or Hanyu could have if they added in new quads, or a 4+4, or a 3A+4T - I have spreadsheets, too! - but it seems premature to start expecting/speculating about full quad layouts from them when Hanyu hasn't yet done a clean FP with the five quad layout, let alone the 4A, and Nathan is admittedly not intending to add a 4Lo into his FS at this point in time. Like I said, I'm sure he'd probably reconsider in the theoretical world in which Hanyu was able to successfully execute a higher BV layout, but it does seem some people are putting the cart before the horse. Even if one or both of them reach the point where they're able to successfully execute all varieties of quads in isolation, or a 4+4, that doesn't guarantee that either of them would be able to do all of it in one four minute program without making a mistake.

eaglehelang · Dec 19, 2019

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
I just mean if people were concerned with his safety they would be more concerned about him doing those continuous 4A fall attempts, but it seems several of them are lauding him for having tried it at the GPF practice (without a coach and continuing to wipe out thereby putting his body at risk). It's one thing to try it in a controlled practice setting with a coach, but to do it to please the fans in the middle of practice right before a FSwas pretty irresponsible of him. And indeed, it compromised the FS which he had yet to skate.

.

1) Huh? If by 'people' you mean Hanyu fans, most certainly we were concerned about safety. That's why he needs a coach with him.-> But even this comment gets ridiculed by certain other fans.

2) Hanyu didnt attempt the 4As for the sake pleasing the fans, far from it, obviously. Lol.
He wasnt knew he wasnt going to win the GPF anyways, so decided to try it & see its readiness in competition setting.

Quad Axel

tafattsbarn

CanadianSkaterGuy

CanadianSkaterGuy

discode

eaglehelang

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada

monidi

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada

CanadianSkaterGuy

champagnerain

yulikali

luckyu2

eaglehelang

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada

champagnerain

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset

CanadianSkaterGuy

CanadianSkaterGuy

champagnerain

eaglehelang

Similar threads

Connect with us