Edge vs. Toe Jumpers and Adding Revolutions?

CanadianSkaterGuy · Dec 13, 2019

I always found edge jumps easier to execute (triple loop was my first triple, even though I'm not a fan of loops). However I much preferred doing toe jumps because of the vault/height I could get from them. Edge jumps felt more like I wasn't getting much lift and had to spin quickly to rotate them whereas with toe jumps the vault gave me way more height and I could delay my rotation and make the jump bigger. Toe jumps also felt more natural, but it depends on the skater.

yulikali · Dec 14, 2019

Funnily, I've always grouped them into categories based on whether one needs to transfer the rotation from the jumping foot to the landing foot (axel, toeloop, salchow) or jumps pretty much from the in-air position (flip, lutz, loop). It makes sense for me because I can never straighten my right leg on the axel, two-foot or just fall badly on my double sal attempts, but are the closest to getting my double loop (just ur) and have a solid 1.5 flip...

hanyuufan5 · Dec 14, 2019

yulikali said:
Funnily, I've always grouped them into categories based on whether one needs to transfer the rotation from the jumping foot to the landing foot (axel, toeloop, salchow) or jumps pretty much from the in-air position (flip, lutz, loop). It makes sense for me because I can never straighten my right leg on the axel, two-foot or just fall badly on my double sal attempts, but are the closest to getting my double loop (just ur) and have a solid 1.5 flip...

This seems to be the case with me too, only your opposite. If I could just get my left leg around faster on those loops and flips...

Flying Feijoa · Dec 14, 2019

yulikali said:
Funnily, I've always grouped them into categories based on whether one needs to transfer the rotation from the jumping foot to the landing foot (axel, toeloop, salchow) or jumps pretty much from the in-air position (flip, lutz, loop).

Same! Jumps involving in-air weight transfer have never been my favourite. 1T-1T actually feels worse than 1Lz-1Lo for me (to the consternation of my coach :laugh:

)

1111bm · Dec 15, 2019

This thread is about edge v.s toe-assisted jumps, but from what I observe with skaters who don't start out as children or young teenagers:

- It seems that the older they are, the more difficult or even impossible it is to learn jumps that have no weight transfer such as Loop and Flip. Many adult skaters never get past a Toe and Sal. It also gets increasingly less likely you will ever get comfortable with landing in a backspin position.

- The older they are, the more skaters struggle with a proper toe-loop. Most do a Toe-Waltz.

I think that both the backspin position and the take-off position on a Toe-Loop feel so unnatural, that it is difficult to make it feel comfortable and part of your muscle memory, unless you start out young. And I think that at least for adults, this has more of an impact on how they execute their jumps than edge vs. toe-assist.

For me personally it's neither weight-transfer, nor edge vs. toe-pick. It's more like a mix of different things.

I hate toe-loops because of the way I have to twist my body to pick in and it just feels uncomfortable having to pick in behind yourself and not in more of a straight line, the way you do with a flip. Flip otoh feels so nice and smooth in comparison.

I hate Salchows because my back inside edges are weak and jumping off of them feels bad and ineffective. I do love jumping of an outside edge though, so Loop/Waltz/Axel are fine in that regard.

On Salchows I also can't get the timing right on when to push off the ice, so oftentimes I don't get enough height or end up doing a 3-turn on the ice when I wait too long. On a Flip it feels like there's much more wiggle room on when to pick in, and I can take my sweet time. I don't have much of a problem with the timing on the other edge jumps such as Loop etc.

kolyadafan2002 · Dec 15, 2019

For me all doubles have the same consistency and are similarly easy. I landed 4/5 of them on the same day after couple years worth of work and I clicked.
Recently I landed 3T and 3Lo (properly and consistently, not the odd triple you do and then cant do consistently which every skater tends to experience), both within a week of each other. At the end of the day, 99% of the time your best jump will be the one you put the most work into. Some ice rinks teach toe first, some salchow first - and that is usually reflected in jump quality.
I think all jumps should be taught at same stage, and that everybody will then get consistency with others. Many people go into lutz with the "oh my god it's a lutz" mindset, when it's not actually that difficult.

gkelly · Dec 15, 2019

Two questions, kolyadafan2002 (don't answer if you don't feel comfortable):

Are you male or female?
How old were you when got your double jumps?

I think that age and sex do make a difference in some aspects of jump learning.

I personally always preferred edge jumps.

My single toe loop was fine but nothing special. I could go years without practicing it and it would still be pretty consistent if I tried again. Even this year after not jumping at all for a few years. I have prerotated it sometimes but not usually.

I liked the loop, although the takeoff was very skidded when I was a kid.

Flip and lutz were weak on picking technique. And also I had trouble holding the outside edge on the lutz and also getting full rotation. I could do a correct half-lutz, or I could change edge and land the jump backward, but not both on the same attempt.

Salchows were my favorite. I used to joke that I could turn most jumps into salchows:
Because of weak picking action and not lifting the BI edge before leaving the pick, my flip was more like a toe-assisted salchow
Same for the lutz, with the change of edge to BI
Sometimes I prerotated my axel on the ice enough that it took off from a BI edge
When I was trying double salchow, often I popped it to a single

However, during the brief period in younger adulthood when I was making some progress with the double sal, my coach did have me start trying double loop before double toe.

Nimyue · Dec 16, 2019

1111bm said:
This thread is about edge v.s toe-assisted jumps, but from what I observe with skaters who don't start out as children or young teenagers:

- It seems that the older they are, the more difficult or even impossible it is to learn jumps that have no weight transfer such as Loop and Flip. Many adult skaters never get past a Toe and Sal. It also gets increasingly less likely you will ever get comfortable with landing in a backspin position.

- The older they are, the more skaters struggle with a proper toe-loop. Most do a Toe-Waltz.

I think that both the backspin position and the take-off position on a Toe-Loop feel so unnatural, that it is difficult to make it feel comfortable and part of your muscle memory, unless you start out young. And I think that at least for adults, this has more of an impact on how they execute their jumps than edge vs. toe-assist.

For me personally it's neither weight-transfer, nor edge vs. toe-pick. It's more like a mix of different things.

I hate toe-loops because of the way I have to twist my body to pick in and it just feels uncomfortable having to pick in behind yourself and not in more of a straight line, the way you do with a flip. Flip otoh feels so nice and smooth in comparison.

I hate Salchows because my back inside edges are weak and jumping off of them feels bad and ineffective. I do love jumping of an outside edge though, so Loop/Waltz/Axel are fine in that regard.

On Salchows I also can't get the timing right on when to push off the ice, so oftentimes I don't get enough height or end up doing a 3-turn on the ice when I wait too long. On a Flip it feels like there's much more wiggle room on when to pick in, and I can take my sweet time. I don't have much of a problem with the timing on the other edge jumps such as Loop etc.

I have not found this to be the case at my rink full of adult skaters... interesting. I wonder if it has to do with coaching methods or just luck of the draw of who you are skating with. Our club has a lot of adult skaters in it. However, I would say 90% of us were/are athletes of other sports prior to skating. I think this is probably the biggest factor. I didn't learn any jumps until March 2018 and I have a solid dbl sal and axel now... Also, the jumps easiest for me to learn had no weight transfer. My largest, prettiest jump is the flip. I can probably agree a bit on toe-loop. It feels weird. I do it correctly, but I hate it lol. But again, my coach didn't let me do it incorrectly from the get-go.

ETA: I guess my point is that the propensity of adult skaters to get certain elements correctly has more to do with their athletic history or lack thereof. If an adult comes to skating in great physical condition they're going to have an easier time and progress faster and further than one who isn't athletic.

mystery905 · Dec 16, 2019

Although I like my toe loop, I much prefer the edge jumps, salchow and loop, loop being my favourite. Salchow, loop, loop combo's are my favourite out of spread eagle/ina-bauer.

There is much more control going into edge jumps (at least in my head) than toe jumps where there is more leeway on what can go wrong...

Flip jumps are hard for me and I am still struggling as it's more of a salchow with my non-jumping inside edge not leaving the ice soon enough.

Flying Feijoa · Dec 16, 2019

Nimyue said:
I guess my point is that the propensity of adult skaters to get certain elements correctly has more to do with their athletic history or lack thereof. If an adult comes to skating in great physical condition they're going to have an easier time and progress faster and further than one who isn't athletic.

Agree strongly with this point. My brother spent many years doing a variety of sports (fencing, swimming, soccer, martial arts). He started skating about 3 or 4 months ago and he's already doing toeloops and salchows. Needs some work on the spins though, from what I hear.
I had a slightly less sporty background (mostly ballet) and it must have taken me about a year to make the same amount of progress. Of course, there are other factors (gender, age, access to coaching etc.)

Nimyue, I'm really impressed you got to doubles in less than two years! I only know one other adult skater who has progressed that fast, whose mum was a national-level gymnast (although she didn't do the sport herself). Just wondering what other sports you did before, if any?

hanyuufan5 · Dec 16, 2019

Hmm, very interesting. I started skating at 10 but took a few very long breaks and didn't start toe loops until last year (early 30s). When I first tried them, I picked way too far back like I was Yuzuru Hanyu going for a quad. :laugh:

My coach corrected that pretty darn fast (from the look on her face, as much for my own safety as for proper technique). Definitely no toe waltzes here.

kolyadafan2002 · Dec 17, 2019

I was very young when I got all my singles. My axel took about 3 years. Then my doubles took 1-2years. For some reason I didnt train triples until 3 years later (strange coaching situation). Then 2 years little progress except odd triple. Then landed 3T and 3Lo, now training 3T+3T. Other triples very close. Cant do 2A past forwards though for whatever reason. Male 17 years old.

Nimyue · Dec 17, 2019

Flying Feijoa said:
Nimyue, I'm really impressed you got to doubles in less than two years! I only know one other adult skater who has progressed that fast, whose mum was a national-level gymnast (although she didn't do the sport herself). Just wondering what other sports you did before, if any?

I had been powerlifting/weight training with running/interval training for conditioning for 6 years prior to starting skating. I've always been able to do basic skating though, so that cuts off a lot of time. I never had any lessons as a kid, and whenever we'd go somewhere with an ice rink I could always manage basic stroking, crossovers etc. I spent a lot of time in my youth on roller blades etc also. So for me a mix of being physically fit with general propensity for the sport. I definitely still have some typical adult skater issues, I've had to work a lot on back spin positioning and my shoulders like to do weird things.

gkelly · Dec 17, 2019

kolyadafan2002 said:
I was very young when I got all my singles. My axel took about 3 years. Then my doubles took 1-2years. For some reason I didnt train triples until 3 years later (strange coaching situation). Then 2 years little progress except odd triple. Then landed 3T and 3Lo, now training 3T+3T. Other triples very close. Cant do 2A past forwards though for whatever reason. Male 17 years old.

Thanks for answering. Sounds like you're making great progress -- congratulations.

It doesn't surprise me that you are young and male.

Regarding your statement

I think all jumps should be taught at same stage, and that everybody will then get consistency with others. Many people go into lutz with the "oh my god it's a lutz" mindset, when it's not actually that difficult.

That might make sense for youngsters training toward doubles and triples.

However, many of the posters here are adults. And many are women, which does seem to make a difference in how naturally or comfortably the back outside lutz takeoff comes.

kolyadafan2002 · Dec 19, 2019

gkelly said:
Thanks for answering. Sounds like you're making great progress -- congratulations.

It doesn't surprise me that you are young and male.

Regarding your statement

That might make sense for youngsters training toward doubles and triples.

However, many of the posters here are adults. And many are women, which does seem to make a difference in how naturally or comfortably the back outside lutz takeoff comes.

I think you're right on the money.
I've done some trainee coaching and for adults you have to overcome mental blocks before teaching the outside edge. For young kids, there is a lot less difference.

I think any adult has the physical ability with a lot of effort to get onto landing all doubles. Some have the ability for triples.
However everything for adults is much more of a fight, not just against the ice but against themselves. (Unless they skated previously).

That been said I know skaters who find 3Lz much easier than 3T. It's all about personal preference at the end of the day, and I think that needs to be taken into account.

hanyuufan5 · Dec 19, 2019

kolyadafan2002 said:
I think any adult has the physical ability with a lot of effort to get onto landing all doubles. Some have the ability for triples.

Oooh, I sure hope you're right about that. :biggrin:

gkelly · Dec 19, 2019

Not every adult.

Not every child either, although chances are better starting earlier.

Even assuming the externals (plenty of ice time and good coaching for several years) are available,

Some people are physically disabled in general.

Some naturally have physical body types (size, shape, muscle fiber composition; coordination) that work fine in everyday life but that do represent a lower degree of athleticism than would be required for double jumps, or even athletic bodies can be the wrong size and shape for getting up high into the air and rotating quickly. There's a reason why elite figure skaters tend to be smaller than professional football or basketball players.

Bodies age, generally in ways that make jumping harder. A 20-something young adult will be more likely to master harder jumps than a 60-something beginner.

Some people have suffered injuries or other medical issues with lasting effects that negatively impact jumping ability. The older one is, the more likely this is to be the case.

If you look at the adult skaters at your rink, you might think "I'm sure they could get double jumps if only they could skate more often, take more lessons, do more off-ice training, maybe lose some weight." And you might be correct about most of them, although in practice external factors such as real life will prevent most of them from doing everything that would be necessary to achieve that.

But that's a self-selected group of adults.

Look at a varied group of adults walking down the street or in your local shops or restaurants, or even at the adults on an average public skate session or pond skate. How many make you think "I bet they could learn double jumps if they took a few years of serious figure skating training" and how many make you think "They'd be lucky to learn all the single jumps" or "For everybody's safety it's better if they don't try skating at all"?

Optimism is good. But so is realism.

kolyadafan2002 · Dec 19, 2019

Sorry, just to clarify I meant every adult getting to the stage where they are training doubles. I was very unclear, sorry.

Ic3Rabbit · Dec 19, 2019

gkelly said:
Not every adult.

Not every child either, although chances are better starting earlier.

Even assuming the externals (plenty of ice time and good coaching for several years) are available,

Some people are physically disabled in general.

Some naturally have physical body types (size, shape, muscle fiber composition; coordination) that work fine in everyday life but that do represent a lower degree of athleticism than would be required for double jumps, or even athletic bodies can be the wrong size and shape for getting up high into the air and rotating quickly. There's a reason why elite figure skaters tend to be smaller than professional football or basketball players.

Bodies age, generally in ways that make jumping harder. A 20-something young adult will be more likely to master harder jumps than a 60-something beginner.

Some people have suffered injuries or other medical issues with lasting effects that negatively impact jumping ability. The older one is, the more likely this is to be the case.

If you look at the adult skaters at your rink, you might think "I'm sure they could get double jumps if only they could skate more often, take more lessons, do more off-ice training, maybe lose some weight." And you might be correct about most of them, although in practice external factors such as real life will prevent most of them from doing everything that would be necessary to achieve that.

But that's a self-selected group of adults.

Look at a varied group of adults walking down the street or in your local shops or restaurants, or even at the adults on an average public skate session or pond skate. How many make you think "I bet they could learn double jumps if they took a few years of serious figure skating training" and how many make you think "They'd be lucky to learn all the single jumps" or "For everybody's safety it's better if they don't try skating at all"?

Optimism is good. But so is realism.

:agree:

Not to mention, many former elite skaters, especially singles and pairs do not have great joints coming into their late 30s and 40s. All the repetitive jumping and other movements pretty much most of their lives totally wreck the joints. There are skaters who have had multiple hip, ankle and/or knee surgeries by 30. <<Raises hand>>

Yannis94 · Jan 1, 2020

I am an edge jumper. I landed my double sal after three tries. My coach even skipped double toe loop and went straight for double loop for some odd reason. I never fully landed it, even if I had the rotation down.
My flip is however my highest jump as well as a waltz jump. Recently we did a competition in how many waltz jumps we could jump and I did 23 in a row, each one just as high as the previous.
My Lutz was a bit of a problem as I tended to flutz pretty badly. Now I don't anymore.
Toe loop is just a necessary evil. I used to jump it from a forward outside three turn and step back, like most do their quad and triple toes, as well as the conventional inside three turn. I didn't drag my blade enough according to my coach. And if I dragged it, I messed up my timing and turned it into a toe waltz.
Axel took some time but once I had it, I landed it very consistantly.

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