Olympic figure skater, coaches being investigated for allegations | Page 30 | Golden Skate

Olympic figure skater, coaches being investigated for allegations

DSQ

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Apr 14, 2018
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You're using "innocent until proven guilty" wrong.

I’ve been seeing this a lot lately. Please explain.

In Scotland at least presuming the defendant is innocent until the trial is concluded is pretty simple. It’s usually reserved to judges, journalists and jurors but so long as we all accept here that the investigation hasn’t concluded so to not be 100% on anything just yet they aren’t using the phase incorrectly.

It is also a figure of speech which in that case they definitely are not using incorrectly.

So please explain because I’m genuinely at a loss here. Perhaps the American system is more different than I thought.
 

okokok1777

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 16, 2018
I’ve been seeing this a lot lately. Please explain.

In Scotland at least presuming the defendant is innocent until the trial is concluded is pretty simple. It’s usually reserved to judges, journalists and jurors but so long as we all accept here that the investigation hasn’t concluded so to not be 100% on anything just yet they aren’t using the phase incorrectly.

It is also a figure of speech which in that case they definitely are not using incorrectly.

So please explain because I’m genuinely at a loss here. Perhaps the American system is more different than I thought.

In the US, the presumption of innocence is a legal right pertaining to criminal trials. It has nothing to do with civil liability, administrative investigations, individual thought, etc. For example, let's say a civil court finds a restaurant owner liable of negligence - causing 40 people to catch a food-borne illness. The owner is ordered to pay 3 million dollars in damages. The owner was not found "guilty" since the proceedings did not occur in a criminal court - he was found "liable". Another example - let's say that there is irrefutable evidence proving that a person is guilty of sexual assault (in the form of a video of crime, a taped confession and DNA evidence). However, the statute of limitations have run out. In this case, the person is still "innocent" of the assault in a criminal sense since they can't be charged.

Due to it's existence as a legal principle, I don't think using the presumption of innocence (at least as it applies to the US) as a figure speech is a great idea. If I see a person vandalize my car, call the cops and watch as they are arrested, I won't be thinking "Until they are charged, tried and convicted of vandalizing my car, it didn't happen." However, in the eyes of the law, that person is "innocent" until/unless they are criminally convicted for their actions.
 

DSQ

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Unfortunately it already is a figure of speech and it’s not like we’re talking about a civil case here. I fact this situation is isn’t a case at all as the police aren’t involved.

It’d be a little strange if we were to stop ourselves from using light legal jargon when “presumed innocent” explains what is is the user was trying to say. That is that we don’t yet know if Morgan did what he is accused of so were should be careful what we’re say for now.

I know you’re in a bit of a different situation here as you have said you have insider knowledge (so your car analogy make sense for you but not us on the outside who are relying on second hand information) but while I definitely think going by what we do know so I pretty much hate everyone in this :( but we do still need to be careful here... in theory at least.

We are not in court so I’d still argue the use was not incorrect.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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I’ve been seeing this a lot lately. Please explain.

In Scotland at least presuming the defendant is innocent until the trial is concluded is pretty simple. It’s usually reserved to judges, journalists and jurors but so long as we all accept here that the investigation hasn’t concluded so to not be 100% on anything just yet they aren’t using the phase incorrectly.

It is also a figure of speech which in that case they definitely are not using incorrectly.

So please explain because I’m genuinely at a loss here. Perhaps the American system is more different than I thought.

DSQ, I had heard anecdotally that there is a “not proven” verdict in Scottish law. Can you tell me if that is true?

Okokok has rightfully explained there are, for the most part, two systems in the US. A criminal conviction is indeed guilty and a criminal acquittal is indeed innocent, and the presumption is that the accused is innocent until convicted. Some jurisdictions in the US are, for example, trying to enforce “ban the box” laws to stop employers from asking about arrests, because arrests are not convictions.

The usual standard for a civil case is “preponderance of the evidence”, although this varies by statute and jurisdiction. And for an administrative body like SafeSport, it can be whatever they set it to be.

One important consideration in either criminal or civil law is credibility. The fact finder, either the judge or the jury, weighs the credibility of the evidence. So, to use the vandalized car example, I testify under oath that I saw John Doe vandalize my car. John Doe testifies under oath, no I didn’t. If judge finds John Doe’s evidence more credible than mine, John Doe will be acquitted.

I may not think he’s innocent, but he is. :)
 

Harriet

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Oct 23, 2017
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Australia
where are james and cipres at europeans. are they not competing? why? (yes, i know i got it wring the first time asking about morgan and cipres - sleep deprivation)

No, they are not competing, and thankfully Cipres does not seem to be in attendance as part of the coaching team for Hamon/Strekalin. Vanessa is back in the US, I think?
 

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
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No, they are not competing, and thankfully Cipres does not seem to be in attendance as part of the coaching team for Hamon/Strekalin. Vanessa is back in the US, I think?

Cipres and James are invited to "Art on Ice" tour of Switzerland: www.artonice.com, along with 13 year old Kimmy Repond figure skater and Alina Zagitova.

Send some letters of disapprecation to the show organisers? Throw some 'carved' sausages to Cipres to show your revulsion?
 

thesoundofice

Rinkside
Joined
May 15, 2018
The more details come to light the more this story gets creepy.
I hope that the personal responsibilities of each adult involved will be clarified soon. Olympics or not it's simply unacceptable to get over such things as anything never happened. What bothers me the most is the fact that the coaches ( Cipres excluded) might be parents. I simply can't understand what was going on in their minds. I might sound like someone coming from the Unicorn's World but.. Didn't t they stop for a second just to think that something similar might happen to their children too?
 

susanf

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 31, 2008
I shouldn't reply because you cut and pasted - very distorted. Read my posts they are consistent support the victim but the accused is still innocent until proven guilty. Don't look for trouble. But it is useless; some people want to see what they want to see. Getting this girl proper help and support must be paramount regardless of what happens to the other players and whatever findings.

What?
 
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anonymoose_au

Insert weird opinion here
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The more details come to light the more this story gets creepy.
I hope that the personal responsibilities of each adult involved will be clarified soon. Olympics or not it's simply unacceptable to get over such things as anything never happened. What bothers me the most is the fact that the coaches ( Cipres excluded) might be parents. I simply can't understand what was going on in their minds. I might sound like someone coming from the Unicorn's World but.. Didn't t they stop for a second just to think that something similar might happen to their children too?

I know, it's awful! I mean you shouldn't need to have kids to know how wrong this all is, but don't Zimmerman and Fontana have kids? How could they treat anyone this way?

The whole thing is horrible and I really hope the adults involved are held to account, it's the least that can be done for the victim (who hope I'd getting all the support she needs now).
 

Ravyn Rant

Totally 80s Dance Party!
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This situation gets worse with every article. The monumental stupidity of the adults at that rink makes me wonder how any of them function at all. The clown who encouraged a child to solicit d-pics for pizza? The utter moron who would risk his competitive career to share d-pics with a child half his age? So stupid it's mind-boggling.
I can't even supply a descriptive word for John and Silvia because if the investigation proves the allegations, my disappointment in them both will be painful.
In short, my two cents can be summed up in four words. WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?!
 

DSQ

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DSQ, I had heard anecdotally that there is a “not proven” verdict in Scottish law. Can you tell me if that is true?

Yup it’s colloquially called “The B*****d Verdict” as it see often by by juries as the verdict you give someone when you think they’re guilty but the prosecution have not proved it. In actuality it’s just another type of acquittal. It’s used a lot in cases with only eye witness.

Sorry off topic.
 

elbkup

Power without conscience is a savage weapon
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Terry Gannon commented on this scandal during a break in the US Nationals Ladies SP event yesterday outlining briefly but thoroughly the whole situation voicing over filming of John Zimmermann talking with a woman behind the scenes so I guess John was there at Nationals.
 

rosy14

Final Flight
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Apr 2, 2016
But AGAIN: ANY NEWS from Safe Sport ? Any news from USFed ? and criminal authorities ? They said the girl didn't say a word to the police, but after the third article on a major newspaper like USA Today some prosecutors ought to have doubts, issues ?
 

okokok1777

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Feb 16, 2018
But AGAIN: ANY NEWS from Safe Sport ? Any news from USFed ? and criminal authorities ? They said the girl didn't say a word to the police, but after the third article on a major newspaper like USA Today some prosecutors ought to have doubts, issues ?

1. It's important to note that SafeSport investigations can take a very long time (there are some active investigations entering their third year). Furthermore, it can take quite a bit of time for the Center to impose a temporary (formerly known as interim) sanction. For example, according to the information I've received and evidence I've reviewed, John Coughlin didn't receive an interim restriction until ~1 year after the original complaint. His subsequent interim suspension was imposed shortly thereafter due to the fact that two more complainants came forward in a very short period of time.

2. The US Center for SafeSport has exclusive authority to determine violations and sanction covered individuals. The USFS, legally, cannot take action against John Z., Silvia and Vinny in regards to this situation. (Believe me - there is A LOT to criticize the USFS in terms of their treatment of survivors & their inability/refusal to properly address the culture of abuse, but in this instance, their inaction is not their fault).

3. The family has retained an attorney (Andrea Lewis), the U.S. Center for SafeSport is investigating the coaches and the Florida DCF has been contacted several times regarding this incident. Christine Brennan will continue to update everyone on other aspects of the case.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
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Terry Gannon commented on this scandal during a break in the US Nationals Ladies SP event yesterday outlining briefly but thoroughly the whole situation voicing over filming of John Zimmermann talking with a woman behind the scenes so I guess John was there at Nationals.

I thought he handled this well.

Gannon was straightforward about what is known so far about the allegations, honest without being salacious. He implied neither guilt nor innocence.
 

elbkup

Power without conscience is a savage weapon
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I thought he handled this well.

Gannon was straightforward about what is known so far about the allegations, honest without being salacious. He implied neither guilt nor innocence.

Yes I thought so too..
 

Edwin

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Jan 5, 2019
I wrote a letter of concern to the Art on Ice organisers and got a polite reply back.

Art on Ice is aware of the allegations against Cipres, but since there has been no further development nor a Safe Sport ruling, the principle of innocent until proven guilty still stands.

They follow the case with full attention and will not hesitate to remove the pair from their tour when necessary.
——-
I assume the principle applies to all contracts the pair signs with shows, etc.

And it sort of correlates with the impression they seem to wait for the storm to die.

Still, the scandal looms over them, and won’t do their reputation no good.

Safe Sport probably cannot harm them anyways, the rink owners and employees are the ones the organisation can punish.
 

kaitlinicole

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 13, 2014
Disgusting. It’s so disheartening to know what’s been happening to our poor athletes behind the scenes while they put on a fake smile for us. Same as women’s gymnastics, I hope enough is being done to put an end to this crap
 

Ella339

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 1, 2019
Well, during his press conference, Didier Gailhaguet pretty much admitted that Morgan Ciprès was guilty.
And Morgan seems to accept/acknowledge it too, if he really is taking the steps mentioned in the tweet.

Source: https://twitter.com/East_From_Eden/status/1225057254107426820

Edit: now with another, longer source (in French though). The phrasing Gailhaguet uses, "(Morgan) est sanctionnable aux États-Unis, mais il faut qu'une plainte soit déposée"... It almost sounds like he wishes for someone to press charges against Ciprès! Anything to distract from his own malfeasance, I guess...
 
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