2019 Judging and Tech calls discussion

1111bm · Dec 15, 2019

kolyadafan2002 said:
In terms of Mikhails quad lutz, at the exact same competition javier got straight +1 to +3s for a 4S of the same quality. Jin boyang did an equal or worse 4Lz and similar story with GOE.

Entrance doesnt give you-3. It just means you missed one of the 4 GOE requirements. That's why I'd give him +2: he had effortless takeoff , good height flow and edge and solid jump and speed across the ice. He didnt have arms up and he didnt do difficult entrance. Either of those 2 requirements would give him +3 from me in old system.

By saying -3 for transitions, that indicates balc when I do double lutz in old system I should have got - GOE when I actually got + GOE with a long entrance (much longer than kolyada).

I think you misunderstood. This is not about GOE criteria, it's about the old requirement for the SP, which asked for the solo jump of the program to be preceded by steps.
The ISU communication back then stated the following under Guidelines in establishing GOE for errors:

- SP: No required preceding steps/movements: -3

Also, a general remark:

First off, the GOE bullets are not requirements, people tend to forget that they're just guidelines. Sure, we can criticise the ISU for calling them such, giving the judges a possible loophole and excuse when they're not abiding by them, but the fact still stands, that the judges are not 'breaking' any rules by not following those bullets exactly.
Actual requirements are f.i. executing a jump combo in the SP or at least one Axel-type jump in every program.

Second, back in the 2017/2018 season, there was a list of 8 possible bullets a skater could meet to get +GOE for a jumping pass, not just 4, so not quite sure what you meant there.

gkelly · Dec 15, 2019

kolyadafan2002 said:
In terms of Mikhails quad lutz, at the exact same competition javier got straight +1 to +3s for a 4S of the same quality. Jin boyang did an equal or worse 4Lz and similar story with GOE.

Entrance doesnt give you-3. It just means you missed one of the 4 GOE requirements. That's why I'd give him +2: he had effortless takeoff , good height flow and edge and solid jump and speed across the ice. He didnt have arms up and he didnt do difficult entrance. Either of those 2 requirements would give him +3 from me in old system.

As a solo jump in a free skate.

In the short program, from 1989 through 2018, preceding steps or other skating moves were required for the non-axel solo jump.

In the rules in effect for 2017, the requirement was worded as
"Triple or quadruple jump immediately preceded by connecting steps and/or other comparable Free Skating movements;"

Failing to meet that requirement required a GOE reduction.

From the 2017-18 GOE guidelines, Reductions for Errors page:

SP: No required preceding steps/movements -3
SP: Break between required steps/movements & jump/only 1 step/movement preceding jump -1 to -2

So in IJS the skater could start out with pluses for quality on the solo jump, which would then be reduced back toward or to 0, or below, on account of the lack of preceding moves.

At the same time the GOE bullets were changed in 2018, the requirement for the SP solo jump to have preceding steps was removed. On the theory that because the GOE bullet encouraged skaters to put preceding steps and other moves before many of their jumps, it was no longer necessary to require this skill for one specific element in the short program.

Mathman · Dec 15, 2019

4everchan said:
... but for the toe loop, the flip, the lutz.. the quad loop... i don't know... there are more fluid jumpers of everyone of these jumps who do not necessarily get as high GOE.

I am trying to think of which skater has a higher and more fluid quad loop, but gets lowballed in GOE.

wintersmith · Dec 15, 2019

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Here's a clip of the jump & protocol for reference:
- On his landing, he was slightly forward on his toe (causing the snow to spray up), which killed some of the flow on the landing and might have made a judge not deem it to be effortless throughout. It was still what I'd call a "good landing" and fulfills bullet 2; the takeoff of course is great, with pretty much no pre-rotation and a clear outside edge.

- There was a bit of a lean in the air too (looks to be about 28 degrees) and for a moment he was slightly forward on his landing... during the part that he's forward on his toe pick -- IMO, not egregiously leaning/forward to deduct, but perhaps not upright enough for some judges to (subjectively) award the "very good body position from takeoff to landing" GOE bullet

- There weren't any preceding steps before, so no bullet for that (and even if he had transitions on the exit, it doesn't increase GOE)

- in my opinion, the jump did not "match the music" as it wasn't executed on any distinguishable highlight in the music (this is of course subjective -- some people think that their fave skater's jumps match the music regardless of where they're placed in a program)

I'd have given it at least a +3, if not a +4. It wasn't the best quad lutz he can do, and some preceding steps and putting it on the music would have augmented the GOE. Chen's 4Z wasn't as impressive in terms of magnitude (although it still had sufficient height/distance to deserve a GOE bullet), however, he did have steps preceding and the element matched up with the music more obviously, so I get the slightly higher GOE on his 4Z.
.

Awesome, fantastic breakdown with points I hadn't considered, like no 6 matching music. I'll make sure to put the GOE criterias right in front of me so it doesn't evade me again.

Much appreciated.

DizzyFrenchie · Dec 15, 2019

wintersmith said:
Awesome, fantastic breakdown with points I hadn't considered, like no 6 matching music. I'll make sure to put the GOE criterias right in front of me so it doesn't evade me again.

Much appreciated.

Yes, on THIS free program he was really under his usual level, I suspect it was out of despair after the discrepancy between his short program skating and his score. BUT he has never being credited before, with matching music, though one cannot dream more musical skating. So, a deduction from something never credited looks like robbery to me...

Mathman · Dec 15, 2019

gkelly said:
At the same time the GOE bullets were changed in 2018, the requirement for the SP solo jump to have preceding steps was removed. On the theory that because the GOE bullet encouraged skaters to put preceding steps and other moves before many of their jumps, it was no longer necessary to require this skill for one specific element in the short program.

In addition, I have always speculated that the rule was dropped also because the judges could not seem to agree on what it means to have -- yes or no -- preceding steps. Many times the slightest little wiggle of the hips before take-off seemed to be enough to evade the penalty.

Plus, there was the problem of the skater who did the combo first, but flubbed it and couldn't attempt the second jump. Then they saved their score by tacking a double toe onto the end of what had been intended as the solo jump, leaving the judges to go back and re-score the first jump, which had no preceding steps (and wasn't a combo either).

All this made for some inconsistent judging -- some skaters got away with it (and even received praise for thinking on their feet), while others got caught for doing the same thing.

Mathman · Dec 15, 2019

DizzyFrenchie said:
I suspect it was out of despair after the discrepancy between his short program skating and his score.

If Hanyu was in despair about the short program, it can only be about the fact that he missed his combo, not the scoring. He lost about 14 points by that technical mistake (counting the difference in base value if he had successfully added the triple toe, plus the difference between -5 GOE and, let;s say, the +4 GOE that he would have got for a successful element, plus the fall deduction, plus possibly some effect on the PCSs -- he had slightly higher PCSs than Nathan anyway).

Nathan won by 12.95 points. With a successful combo Yuzuru would have been right there, if not slightly ahead after the short.

BUT he has never being credited before, with matching music, ...

I disagree. I think he is often credited, quite rightly, by the judges for his musicality, both on individual elements (GOE) and overall (PCSs). He always gets 9.5 or so on interpretation of the music, as well as high GOEs on his quads and triple Axels. (We don't know for sure, of course, which judges are giving him credit for the music GOE bullet and which aren't, since the protocols only show a summary.)

Anyway, to me all this is over-analyzing. As for the LP, Hanyu lost because he did a 1A instead of the intended 3A+3A sequence, not because some judge gave him a +3 instead of a +4 for something.

1111bm · Dec 15, 2019

DizzyFrenchie said:
Yes, on THIS free program he was really under his usual level, I suspect it was out of despair after the discrepancy between his short program skating and his score.

Not sure I'm following.

If he's been consistently underscored all throughout his career, as you and many others claim, wouldn't he be fairly used to it by now? Why would he suddenly feel such an amount of despair now, leading to his underperforming in the FS, when he's been treated that way all along?

And in what way would a feeling of despair lead to making errors in his FS?
I also wouldn't describe his performance as 'under his usual level' per se, it's a bit more complicated than that.

His under-performing on the PCS side was due to a lack of focus, stamina and familiarity with the new layout, because he was attempting a 5 quad (!) program that he had never done before, at least not in competition.

Other than that, on the jump side of things, he didn't do that bad in the first half of the program, when he still had enough strength.

He's always had periods where he was struggling with his 4Lo, and especially this season. So given his past and recent history with that jump, he was incredibly successful at the GPF, even when the landing wasn't a perfect +5 one.
On to the next jump, he nailed that 'cursed' 4Lz, too, another success!
After that the quality of his jumps decreased, but again, this was a new layout and he did two demanding quads in the beginning of his program, so no wonder he started struggling with the ones he's usually more comfortable with and didn't have any strength left to do the 3A in the end.

DizzyFrenchie said:
BUT he has never being credited before, with matching music, though one cannot dream more musical skating. So, a deduction from something never credited looks like robbery to me...

We don't know that. It is quite possible that he did indeed get credit for that and would have gotten less GOE in the past, if it weren't for his jumps matching the music. We don't know what's going on in the judges' heads and what bullets they assign to a jump and which they don't, that's just your conjecture.

He also didn't get a 'deduction' for not matching the music? :scratch2:

Assuming that what you're saying is true, and he never got due credit for matching the music, then he didn't lose anything here at the GPF. Because his GOE would effectively remain the same it has always been.

DizzyFrenchie · Dec 15, 2019

Mathman,
At the short program, he should still have been ahead of Nathan Chen, even with the missed combo. Even with the usual advantadge most judges give Natha Chen in their scoring.
This time they judged him even more harshly, while, as he had promised, he had worked extremely hard to get even more perfect transitions etc. Nearly every time I watch him I fell he surpasses my wildest imagination, here again.
And once again, but more than usual, furthermore in a final where one can expect more consistent judgment than in a CS Cup, he was not credited for his level of skating, either in GOEs or in components.
Just the sort of circumstance provoking burnouts, for your information.

The fact he chose a version of his free program of which he had had only one runthrough, and a mere sketch with little transitions, entries... if any, him so careful on perfection, and in spite of Ghislain Briand having joined him and probably tried to reason him away, shows how "out of himself" he was. I believe this skating will remain a piece of anthology for heart pain. But after all, though his level didn't pass, this time, that of Nathan Chen, as he had never been credited for its worth, why was he deducted there? And after all, he did five quads, and the program was not missing totally the axel element, as there was a single axel instead of the triple-triple combo.

After that, both him and Nathan Chen, who must be quite uneasy too because he is so honest, were as close as can ever be with polite words, from expressing how unfair the judges had been at this GPF. In fact, they do imply it in their statements, rather clearly.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Dec 15, 2019

wintersmith said:
Awesome, fantastic breakdown with points I hadn't considered, like no 6 matching music. I'll make sure to put the GOE criterias right in front of me so it doesn't evade me again.

Much appreciated.

Thanks! A lot of them as I mentioned are subjective like matching the music and effortlessness. When assessing GOE I also try to think about what constitutes poor vs average vs good vs very good.

While a jump can be huge or have transitions it’s important to consider the micro-errors that occur which are not as obvious - some judges let that slide but others will scrutinize.

6 bullets means a skater doesn’t have to hit every criteria to get a +5, but it means that they need to get 3 criteria (including the first 3 “major” ones) AND not have issues that could yield deductions (form breaks, telegraphing, etc.) throughout the rest of the jump. People often tend to focus on the magnitude (which is fair since that’s often the best part!) but there are tons of other factors. Eteri’s students in particular are great at maximizing this because it’s not just transitions but they focus on making jumps look “easy” which checks off multiple GOE bullets (effortless, good landing).

1111bm · Dec 15, 2019

DizzyFrenchie said:
Mathman,
At the short program, he should still have been ahead of Nathan Chen, even with the missed combo. Even with the usual advantadge most judges give Natha Chen in their scoring.

Assuming Yuzuru would've still missed the combo the way he did, but would have gotten maximum PCS (= 50... not really justifiable given the serious error on the combo, but there you go...) and maximum +5 GOE on all of his other technical elements in the SP, including spins and StSq, resulting in a TES of 52,65 (2,55 points more than what he actually got), his overall score would've been 102,65.

If you take Nathan's score and change the PCS to one with an average of 8,5 per category, instead of the 9,45 that he got, Nathan would still end up with 105,63.

You could say his 3A is a weak jump of his and doesn't deserve any +GOE and subtract those 2,51 points that he got on top, and he'd still have 103,12.

Obviously you can take this even further and take away some of the GOE on Nathan's other jumps or even the spins or StSq, but after a certain point you gotta ask yourself how much beating down of his GOE is still justifiable?

oatmella · Dec 15, 2019

The only ones that I have seen argue that Yuzu should have won the SP (and the competition) are the more adamant fans who mostly refuse to see anything positive about Nathan’s skating. Some to the point of insisting that Nathan in fact cannot skate at all

As for what Nathan said in the press conference, he is always very humble, and deferential towards Yuzu. I don’t know if we can say that he was calling out unfair judging.

Farnaz · Dec 15, 2019

Isn't it a huge question mark if a skater with a missed combo ends up ahead of a skater that performed all his high BV elements, including the combo, cleanly? :scratch3: Come on friends, don't make me say things that sounds like I am not a Yuzu fan :pray:

Skater Boy · Dec 15, 2019

1111bm said:
Yuzuru got +34,3 % GOE on his 4Lz. Nathan got +37,1 %. Not that much of a difference. Both jumps had tight, rather borderline landings, but looked very nice (and similar!) otherwise, so that seems accurate.

Nathan didn't have as much of a forward lean/'nod' of the upper body upon landing the way Yuzuru did (it's even more apparent here, than in the official recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8D3-ZVDz2LM&t=59s).
Also Yuzuru's landing looked more snowy to me.

So no, I wouldn't give that a +4/+5 and +3-4 seems exactly what both deserved to get for their respective 4Lzs.

ETA: Yuzuru also didn't fulfill the 'creative entry/steps before jumps' or 'matches the music' bullets. Now, I don't believe that judges follow those bullets this accurately, but just saying, even if they were or those who do, they wouldn't be able to justify a +5 based on them. If we're being totally nitpicky, one could even argue that the 'good body position' bullet isn't fulfilled because of the upper body forward lean upon landing (although there's worse forward leans than that of course).

I find that hard to believe. You must be aware that there are a lot of fans who feel that Yuzuru was heavily underscored at GPF (and other competitions as well) and that his jumps didn't receive the GOE and recognition they should have for what they perceive to be flawless, high quality jumps. And such a thread will obviously fuel their feelings of resentment.

I think itis a generalization but the "top" skaters men and women, tend to get generous GOE's even with tight landings. Probably neither deserveda plus 5 and plus 5 is generous. I am more dismayed with Chen's pcs. He has improved a lot but he is not genius pc wise. Scoring him so high is very disrespectful to skaters of yester year who really were amazing pcs or even compared to Brown.

Skater Boy · Dec 15, 2019

oatmella said:
The only ones that I have seen argue that Yuzu should have won the SP (and the competition) are the more adamant fans who mostly refuse to see anything positive about Nathan’s skating. Some to the point of insisting that Nathan in fact cannot skate at all

As for what Nathan said in the press conference, he is always very humble, and deferential towards Yuzu. I don’t know if we can say that he was calling out unfair judging.

Nathan seems like a very nice if rather boring personality. The way he is scored pcs is not his fault it is the judginng. I do think it is ridiculous. He is no Chan or Lambiel or Buttle. But he is a good skater for sure. Nathan should have won here with current scorring system. Even reducing his pcs by 20 he still would have won easily.

Mathman · Dec 15, 2019

DizzyFrenchie said:
... why was he deducted there? And after all, he did five quads, and the program was not missing totally the axel element, as there was a single axel instead of the triple-triple combo.

Well, I think the thing is, the ISU scoring system does not work that way. Yuzuru Hanyu did not receive any deductions for doing a single Axel. It's just that , as it is said, "he left points on the table." No one took any points away, but he did not receive the big points for a 3A-3A sequence that he had planned but did not execute.

Yes, Hanyu did five quads. Setting aside extra bonuses, the base values for the five quads that he did totaled up to 50.7 points. This is what he earned for the elements that he did. Nathan Chen also did 5 quads. These were worth a total of 51.2 points. So they were about the same in terms of quads.

In addition to his quads Nathan did 3A, 3Lz, 3S, 3T and 3T. This gave him 26.60 base value points besides the quads. Yuzuru did 3Lz, 3F<, 2T and 1A, totaling 12.28 points. This is where Nathan Chen won the contest: 26.60 beats 12.28.

Nothing else really mattered. There was only a point or two difference in program components, grades of execution, spins, etc. -- not enough to have any effect on the outcome.

We can, of course, complain that the ISU judging system is all wrong because it puts too much weight on base values of jumps and neglects other factors. But that is the system theat the skaters compete under, for better or worse.

1111bm · Dec 15, 2019

oatmella said:
As for what Nathan said in the press conference, he is always very humble, and deferential towards Yuzu. I don’t know if we can say that he was calling out unfair judging.

Yeah, I think it's really silly when some skating fans use Nathan's own words against him. 'Look, he admitted it himself!'.

Especially with things concerning PCS/the performance aspect of skating, that one is so subjective, that it really doesn't matter what the skater himself thinks about his abilities, he/she is just another person with their personal opinion, that I don't have to necessarily agree with.

I'd even argue that they're one of the least reliable sources when it comes to assessing their own skating, because obviously they're the most biased. Everyone knows that it's impossible to judge yourself or how you're being perceived by others. Most people either think too highly of themselves/their abilities or are too self-critical. And for most people it feels weird watching themselves performing, so you can never truly see yourself the way an outside person does.

Plus, just me guessing, but I doubt that Nathan has watched any of Yuzuru's recent performances, at the most he's seen him skating his SP live at GPF.

lurkz2 · Dec 15, 2019

Nathan did not watch Yuzuru skate, there was a quote somewhere.

It's so funny that Nathan's general statements about Yuzuru being more skilled are being interpreted as him saying Yuzuru deserved to win this competition. This was a subpar PCS skate for Yuzuru and his scores reflected that. And the judges had several better skates from Yuzuru to compare and contrast with it.

1111bm · Dec 15, 2019

Skater Boy said:
IScoring him so high is very disrespectful to skaters of yester year who really were amazing pcs or even compared to Brown.

Re yesteryear skaters...
This is why we shouldn't compare across competitions, and especially not across different seasons or quads. Just look at the PCS or GOE that someone like Mao or Yuna got back in 2010, compared to the top female skaters of today such as Medvedeva or Zagitova, for instance. You simply can't compare.
I think everyone can see that there's been a general trend of PCS increasing over the past 2 quads, less strictness on giving out levels for spins and step sequences too, I think.
I don't know why exactly that happened, but I don't think it should be taken as the judges saying that today's skaters are somehow more competent or better performers. :shrug:

It also has little to do with Nathan himself, we can only guess of course, but I'm pretty sure if he was skating in another era, he'd be getting PCS within a range that was typical for that time.

DizzyFrenchie · Dec 15, 2019

I didn't imply there were deductions for missing axel element, I just see it would have been a justification for a deduction so a low score, and this justification was not there.
I agree his jumps base value was lower than Chen's, and their grade of execution similar — Hanyu even doing "snow" at landing as Chen usually does, without lower GOEs.
But not the spins or step sequences : Hanyu's were not as good as usual, but still way better than Chen (though in this too, he did great progress; I find his spins still not very pleasant to watch, but contrary to my expectations last year, now I think he may have nice ones, maybe next year or for Olympic season, and this, without any score incentive given how he is judged, which speaks a lot about his great character, and he is still so young for a male skater), and there are the PCS. The musicality was not good (I think he also used a new record of Origin, and had probably not had time to adapt), nor the transition, but skating skills, performance, are still at light-years from Chen's, which the scores, as always, didn't reflect.
And we are speaking of an "exceptionnally bad" free program by Yuzuru Hanyu, and exceptionnally bad, I repeat, because of the judgment of the short program.

Oatmella, what an argument! We French have the same sort of argument in Le Loup et l'Agneau (The Wolf and the Lamb) by La Fontaine. ;-)

2019 Judging and Tech calls discussion

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