Kevin Aymoz quad salchow

el henry · Jan 4, 2020

As I said, I have been watching and loving Kevin since 2017. Glad to see others on the train now, choo choo!:hap85:
I have been following Jason since 2014. He’s always had a full train

if we must compare, I have the receipts :biggrin:

Kevin’s one, so far, quad, is great, but it doesn’t put him in another world, it doesn’t mean he’s going to start landing multiple quads in every comp from now on. I’ll be pleased to see him do it, but no way is he automatically now landing quads in every comp, and thus “ahead” of Jason.

And I need to bring this up because it was mentioned, and yes it’s thread drift, but it happens.... Jason’s Worlds SP was mesmerizing, it’s true. But no way was it an anomaly like “the skate of his life”. He’s been laying down such programs for some time now. And then ones that aren’t as well, like every other skater

We can love *both*. :luv17: Very much loooking forward to Kevin at Euros.

Tavi... · Jan 4, 2020

kolyadafan2002 said:
Jason had the skate of his life at Worlds 2019. Kevin's bad programs this season got greater scores (overall combined score).

Jason can beat kevin without a quad, but jason cant medal without a quad. Kevin can medal as he has a quad consistent, however if he messes up he cant medal.

The sheer base value of a quad puts you on another level entirely. If you don't have one, to make the jump maths work you either have to only have 3-2 combos and then a solo 3T, or a planned double axel. 3.3 vs 9 t is a lot, and when you land quads you are perceived as a better skater so that will bias the judges towards you (this shouldn't happen, but for now you have to accept it does).

Anyways I am starting to wish Jason brown was never mentioned in this thread. He is kinda irrelevant to Kevin's success or lack of success.

Well, if you had started the discussion about Kevin’s 4S and future prospects in his fan thread, it’s unlikely that any comparisons to Jason would have been made, right?

As to the rest of your post, I’m not quite sure what you mean - Jason didn’t have the skate of his life in either program at Worlds 2019, and in fact he bombed his FS, losing more than 20 points due to errors.

Regarding this season, yes, Kevin has outscored Jason. Kevin has generally skated well this season - better overall than Jason. He skated well at the GPF and deserved his bronze. But the fact that all three guys he beat scored less than 249 points - despite having higher BV programs in theory / attempting more and harder quads than he did - should tell you something about relying solely on BV to determine how competitive someone is.

kolyadafan2002 · May 18, 2020

Tavi... said:
Well, if you had started the discussion about Kevin’s 4S and future prospects in his fan thread, it’s unlikely that any comparisons to Jason would have been made, right?

As to the rest of your post, I’m not quite sure what you mean - Jason didn’t have the skate of his life in either program at Worlds 2019, and in fact he bombed his FS, losing more than 20 points due to errors.

Regarding this season, yes, Kevin has outscored Jason. Kevin has generally skated well this season - better overall than Jason. He skated well at the GPF and deserved his bronze. But the fact that all three guys he beat scored less than 249 points - despite having higher BV programs in theory / attempting more and harder quads than he did - should tell you something about relying solely on BV to determine how competitive someone is.

Without a quad you can't medal at worlds. It's a fact (almost a fact - as unlikely events do happen as we saw with Kevin at europeans).
Even Jason can't make up 10Pts PCS over somebody like Kevin which would be the difference between 2 quads and 1 triple and 1 double axel in the free program.

In the short, a quad toe vs a nice triple flip wouldn't kill Jason.
But in the era of Boyang Jin, Hanyu, Nathan Chen, Shoma Uno, Dmitri Aliev, Alexander Samarin, Junwang cha, Vincent Zhou, Morisi Kvitelashvili Jumping at least 2 different types of quads, All but 2 of them would need to have weak skates for Jason to end up on the podium - and Jason would need to go clean.
Yes Jason's PB's would stand Against Alexander Samarin, Juwang Cha (Large margin), (Absolutely smoke Morisi Kvitelashvili),.
But if half of them went clean, Jason wouldn't stand a chance at the worlds podium..

Kevin didn't have a great skate at europeans, and I could probably think of excuses such as "His coaching situation" - but it's pointless.
Kevin with 3 quads (2 types) could have a chance.

Jason is still trying a quad, and if He landed one on the day at worlds he'd also have a chance. But also relying on others mistakes.
If he doesn't land one there is no point.

Why should I expect comparisons to Jason. They are completely different. Jason is graceful and perfect in skating skills. Kevin has more outwards energy and tricks. If I watch them back to back I wouldn't find them similar in any ways.

Kevin can do 4T with some sort of consistency in competition (not perfect, but getting the job done).
He can also do 4S on practice (Which looks less sketchy than his toe I might add). He rotated in competition the one time he tried. I felt he might have been able to do it at worlds this year (of course the circumstances stopped this from happening).

Jason can do 4T and sometimes 4S in practice. If he overcomes the mental barrier then he only needs 1 quad to score 100+pts in sp, and 1 quad in FP could land him the bronze medal. Again, if Others make mistakes.
If he did 2 or 3 quads then he could get bronze without relying on too many other making mistakes.

Tavi... · May 18, 2020

kolyadafan2002 said:
Without a quad you can't medal at worlds. It's a fact (almost a fact - as unlikely events do happen as we saw with Kevin at europeans).
Even Jason can't make up 10Pts PCS over somebody like Kevin which would be the difference between 2 quads and 1 triple and 1 double axel in the free program.

In the short, a quad toe vs a nice triple flip wouldn't kill Jason.
But in the era of Boyang Jin, Hanyu, Nathan Chen, Shoma Uno, Dmitri Aliev, Alexander Samarin, Junwang cha, Vincent Zhou, Morisi Kvitelashvili Jumping at least 2 different types of quads, All but 2 of them would need to have weak skates for Jason to end up on the podium - and Jason would need to go clean.
Yes Jason's PB's would stand Against Alexander Samarin, Juwang Cha (Large margin), (Absolutely smoke Morisi Kvitelashvili),.
But if half of them went clean, Jason wouldn't stand a chance at the worlds podium..

Kevin didn't have a great skate at europeans, and I could probably think of excuses such as "His coaching situation" - but it's pointless.
Kevin with 3 quads (2 types) could have a chance.

Jason is still trying a quad, and if He landed one on the day at worlds he'd also have a chance. But also relying on others mistakes.
If he doesn't land one there is no point.

Why should I expect comparisons to Jason. They are completely different. Jason is graceful and perfect in skating skills. Kevin has more outwards energy and tricks. If I watch them back to back I wouldn't find them similar in any ways.

Kevin can do 4T with some sort of consistency in competition (not perfect, but getting the job done).
He can also do 4S on practice (Which looks less sketchy than his toe I might add). He rotated in competition the one time he tried. I felt he might have been able to do it at worlds this year (of course the circumstances stopped this from happening).

Jason can do 4T and sometimes 4S in practice. If he overcomes the mental barrier then he only needs 1 quad to score 100+pts in sp, and 1 quad in FP could land him the bronze medal. Again, if Others make mistakes.
If he did 2 or 3 quads then he could get bronze without relying on too many other making mistakes.

Hello - I opened this thread thinking there might be some news about Kevin, so I was really surprised to see that you were replying to a post I wrote at the beginning of January.

As many Jason fans have said in many threads over the years, it would be great if he could regularly land quads in competition. He says it himself. But the truth is, even without one, he has the 6th highest score this season, only 0.81 behind Kevin. You can’t ignore that.

You’re not wrong that when all the top men with quads skate lights out at the same competition, Jason at is a disadvantage points wise. 2017 Worlds, where he skated really well and ended up 7th, is a perfect example. But that doesn’t happen so often. People often screw up. Even at 2017 Worlds, Jason beat a lot of excellent skaters with quads, good spins, musicality, and good SS, including D10 and Kolyada.

And scoring rules have changed since then. By lessening the BV of quads, they give a skater like Jason, who relies on GOE to make up some of the difference, to be more competitive. 2020 4CCs, where he took silver, is a perfect example of this.

I’m sure some people will dismiss that silver medal because Shoma and Nathan weren’t there. But the GPF and Euros also had fields missing key players. You can only compete against the skaters who are at the competition, right? So I don’t think it’s fair to dismiss a competition because so and so wasn’t there. Let’s just say that Kevin did his job at the GPF and Jason did his at 4CCs.

Anyway, I’m sure we can both agree that it will be wonderful to see both guys - all skaters, really - back at it in competition again!

kolyadafan2002 · May 18, 2020

Tavi... said:
Hello - I opened this thread thinking there might be some news about Kevin, so I was really surprised to see that you were replying to a post I wrote at the beginning of January.

As many Jason fans have said in many threads over the years, it would be great if he could regularly land quads in competition. He says it himself. But the truth is, even without one, he has the 6th highest score this season, only 0.81 behind Kevin. You can’t ignore that.

You’re not wrong that when all the top men with quads skate lights out at the same competition, Jason at is a disadvantage points wise. 2017 Worlds, where he skated really well and ended up 7th, is a perfect example. But that doesn’t happen so often. People often screw up. Even at 2017 Worlds, Jason beat a lot of excellent skaters with quads, good spins, musicality, and good SS, including D10 and Kolyada.

And scoring rules have changed since then. By lessening the BV of quads, they give a skater like Jason, who relies on GOE to make up some of the difference, to be more competitive. 2020 4CCs, where he took silver, is a perfect example of this.

I’m sure some people will dismiss that silver medal because Shoma and Nathan weren’t there. But the GPF and Euros also had fields missing key players. You can only compete against the skaters who are at the competition, right? So I don’t think it’s fair to dismiss a competition because so and so wasn’t there. Let’s just say that Kevin did his job at the GPF and Jason did his at 4CCs.

Anyway, I’m sure we can both agree that it will be wonderful to see both guys - all skaters, really - back at it in competition again!

I agree it will.
Sorry I got very confused with the date and time format (1.4.20 vs 4.1.20) so thought you posted in April.
I don't dismiss Jason's 4CC medal. It's a big accomplishment, however It won't influence his chances at succeeding at worlds.
Right now Hanyu and Chen are in a league of their own, and everybody is throwing all their possible technical out there to catch up.

Gabby30 · May 18, 2020

This doesn't mean he is going to be consistent. He has as much chances as the other guys with 2 types of quads, like Kazuki Tomono, Sota Yamamoto, Keiji Tanaka...
Kevin had a good season, but so did others at some point in their career, like Boyang, or Keiji this season. This means nothing

kolyadafan2002 · May 18, 2020

Gabby30 said:
This doesn't mean he is going to be consistent. He has as much chances as the other guys with 2 types of quads, like Kazuki Tomono, Sota Yamamoto, Keiji Tanaka...
Kevin had a good season, but so did others at some point in their career, like Boyang, or Keiji this season. This means nothing

But Kevin performs much better than all of those (In terms of PCS).
Boyang has had a number of good seasons, and only this one he fell into a slump (as many skaters do at some point in their career).
Kevin has landed 4T with amazing consistency for a new jump (for him, of course no consistency to people like chen and hanyu)
He has fully rotated in SP 4T without falling: 10/13 since the first time he rotated 4T in SP (Master's de Patinage 2018)
He has received positive GOE or Base value in SP: 8/10 of the one's he landed.

SinceSkate Canada Autumn Classic 2018 he introduced clean 4T in his FP. He doubled out of it next competition so not included in stats, but you can just add that to the end number:
Rotated in LP with no fall: 12/16
And out of those +'ve GOE: 9/12

So for a brand new jump SP success rate is 77%, and out of successes 80% fully rotated: giving total perfect jump consistency for SP: 66% (Which isn't bad considering that most neg GOE is -1 or -2.)
In LP: 75% success rate in landing, 56% with positive GOE.

I wouldn't say that over 2 seasons he was inconsistent, especially considering adding 4T's into second half.
Plus even when he misses the jumps, he gets high performance scores.

karne · May 18, 2020

We'll never know what Worlds would have brought, but I think we can look at some simple facts:

At 4CC, his last major event before Worlds, Jason laid down a massive score, including a higher PCS than Hanyu in the free skate. He won silver.

At Euros, his last major event before Worlds, Aymoz didn't even make the free skate.

Jason was unquestionably the one with form and momentum on his side and was landing quads in practice. I firmly believe he would have landed it in competition at Montreal - and that he would easily have beaten Aymoz there.

TallyT · May 18, 2020

I don't see that the what ifs, for Kevin or Jason or anyone, matter. The next time they, and all the rest with or without quads, compete is in the lap of the skating gods, they will one and all be out of competitive shape and given that lack of consistency is already a bugbear in the discipline, I wouldn't like to predict what anyone will achieve. It's not only who has or has not the goods right now or is working towards them, it's who handles the layoff and lack of competition (especially the top level international which will be the last to come back) best. And that is anyone's guess, because it's a completely different mind game than the the one they are used to in a normal season.

Skater Boy · May 19, 2020

I am not sure what Jason has to do with this thread or the price of rice in wherever. Kevin certainly this past skating year was more consistently or more likely landing quads and was being recognized as a top notch challenger. Then disaster hit at Euros. I guess some are saying he is similar to Jason well not really. Jason is still more of a pc skater like a Jeff Buttle - I won't say Evan L because I don't think Evan deserves to be in the same group of quality skaters which are very very rare - maybe Buttle, Chan and Brown and maybe Lambiel. the next group would be led by Hanyu maybe Kolyada, D. Ten and maybe Fernandez and then a drop to Chen et al. Kevin was definitely a threat this year at Euros before the disaster and worlds though his opportunity seemed to be affected by the fact that Brown, Zhou and the return to form of Shoma made bronze more in doubt.

kolyadafan2002 · May 19, 2020

karne said:
We'll never know what Worlds would have brought, but I think we can look at some simple facts:

At 4CC, his last major event before Worlds, Jason laid down a massive score, including a higher PCS than Hanyu in the free skate. He won silver.

At Euros, his last major event before Worlds, Aymoz didn't even make the free skate.

Jason was unquestionably the one with form and momentum on his side and was landing quads in practice. I firmly believe he would have landed it in competition at Montreal - and that he would easily have beaten Aymoz there.

Did you miss Kevin's 3rd place at gpf? Everybody messes up sometimes. Jason has been landing quads in practice for 6yeara now, it doesnt excite me that much.
Kevin landed 4T after 4T, 4S after 4S and 3A after 3A at europeans practice.
Kevin's PB this season with some big mistakes wason similar level of Jason 4CC perfect run (other than pop).

CanadianSkaterGuy · May 19, 2020

kolyadafan2002 said:
Did you miss Kevin's 3rd place at gpf? Everybody messes up sometimes. Jason has been landing quads in practice for 6yeara now, it doesnt excite me that much.
Kevin landed 4T after 4T, 4S after 4S and 3A after 3A at europeans practice.
Kevin's PB this season with some big mistakes wason similar level of Jason 4CC perfect run (other than pop).

Agreed. One bad SP doesn’t necessarily shape the rest of the season.

Look at Aliev’s GPF - and then he won Euros.

kolyadafan2002 · May 19, 2020

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Agreed. One bad SP doesn’t necessarily shape the rest of the season.

Look at Aliev’s GPF - and then he won Euros.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rlpWaG08zM - a few months before 2002 Olympics!

Tolstoj · May 19, 2020

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Agreed. One bad SP doesn’t necessarily shape the rest of the season.

Look at Aliev’s GPF - and then he won Euros.

That is true in general although i don't see the 3 cases as comparable, maybe Jason Brown in terms of consistency but i think Jason's issues are totally psychological.

Kevin's jumping technique is soo wild (compared to Brown or Aliev), to the point that if he misses the quad, i'm not sure he's going to land the other two elements cause even his 3-3 is very unstable. Props to him for not holding back for sure, and when everything works it is all very effective, but if you analyze his performances he rarely skated actually clean.

Judges like his style, looking at the huge components he often gets, and he got lucky at all 3 GP events, cause everyone else basically bombed. At NHK he got the silver with a TES of 70 pts, that's one of the lowest technical score from a GP medalist in years i believe.

kolyadafan2002 · May 19, 2020

Tolstoj said:
That is true in general although i don't see the 3 cases as comparable, maybe Jason Brown in terms of consistency but i think Jason's issues are totally psychological.

Kevin's jumping technique is soo wild (compared to Brown or Aliev), to the point that if he misses the quad, i'm not sure he's going to land the other two elements cause even his 3-3 is very unstable. Props to him for not holding back for sure, and when everything works it is all very effective, but if you analyze his performances he rarely skated actually clean.

Judges like his style, looking at the huge components he often gets, and he got lucky at all 3 GP events, cause everyone else basically bombed. At NHK he got the silver with a TES of 70 pts, that's one of the lowest technical score from a GP medalist in years i believe.

In reality Europeans was phychological due to coaching situation.
His 3+3 is usually very stable technique, it's the toeloop technique which is an issue. His 3A is divine though.
He rarely skates cleanly, but he also rarely misses the quad as we've seen. And he's only once had a disaster SP.
We are ignoring the fact that he didn't need to medal at NHK trophy to get to GPF. He only needed 4th, and he would have got that even if less people bombed.

el henry · May 19, 2020

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it agin, Jason v. Kevin is a false dichotomy.

Kevin has a unique artistic vision and a passionate vibe on the ice. He draws you in:agree:

Jason of course is Jason, his gifts for expression and skating and spins are dazzling.:agree:

Quads don’t excite me at all, simply as quads. And that’s not why I watch Kevin. Kevin has more to work on to place consistently at the highest levels than just getting those wild jumps down. I have no doubt he can do it, he is a compelling skater and he is young.

What Jason needs has been discussed and discussed and discussed.....

It is possible to like both, and wish them both well

Harriet · May 19, 2020

kolyadafan2002 said:
In reality Europeans was phychological due to coaching situation.

Unless someone was inside Kevin's head at the time it's not really possible to assert that with any degree of certainty.

OTOH, I was at Europeans and noticed that during the six-minute warmup he was constantly blotting his nose, almost as though it was bleeding or he felt like it was bleeding, in a way I'd never seen him do before. So there may also have been something physical going on that unsettled him.

Jeanie19 · May 19, 2020

el henry said:
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it agin, Jason v. Kevin is a false dichotomy.

Kevin has a unique artistic vision and a passionate vibe on the ice. He draws you in:agree:

Jason of course is Jason, his gifts for expression and skating and spins are dazzling.:agree:

Quads don’t excite me at all, simply as quads. And that’s not why I watch Kevin. Kevin has more to work on to place consistently at the highest levels than just getting those wild jumps down. I have no doubt he can do it, he is a compelling skater and he is young.

What Jason needs has been discussed and discussed and discussed.....

It is possible to like both, and wish them both well

I love them both. And I don't want to choose between them.

CanadianSkaterGuy · May 19, 2020

karne said:
We'll never know what Worlds would have brought, but I think we can look at some simple facts:

At 4CC, his last major event before Worlds, Jason laid down a massive score, including a higher PCS than Hanyu in the free skate. He won silver.

At Euros, his last major event before Worlds, Aymoz didn't even make the free skate.

Jason was unquestionably the one with form and momentum on his side and was landing quads in practice. I firmly believe he would have landed it in competition at Montreal - and that he would easily have beaten Aymoz there.

Not sure why you are so certain that Brown would have landed his quad in competition in Montreal - something he has never had ratified in competition before. But Aymoz has his only bad SP of an otherwise stellar season and suddenly you're sure he wouldn't bounce back at Worlds and would be easily beaten by Brown.

The idea that a skater is as only good as their last competition is a bit short-sighted. At NHK, Jason had his worst total score (231.27) since 2016. I suppose we should have written off the rest of his season, then?

Uno came 8th at IdF with an abysmal 215.84, was only 4th at Rostelecom -- and then beat Hanyu at Nationals.

Kevin Aymoz quad salchow

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

Tavi...

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada

Tavi...

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada

Gabby30

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

TallyT

Skater Boy

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada

CanadianSkaterGuy

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada

Tolstoj

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

Harriet

Jeanie19

CanadianSkaterGuy

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