Russian Hegemony in Ladies Ice Skating

JazzUp said:

Yes, it is, because I believe we are allowed to laugh at anything we find funny, and don't object at others laughing at whatever I post.

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womp womp womp.. Good attempt to respond though! :clapper:

Maagii said:

Ruassia also lost a championship at 2018 Worlds to Osmond. Just a little correction.

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And 2014 to Mao right?

For 2014 and 2018, Maagii explained that she counted the OG instead of Worlds, as the "most important competition of the year".

qwerty1195 said:

womp womp womp.. Good attempt to respond though! :clapper:

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yours though, not so much

jenaj said:

I don’t think the cost has exceeded the rate of inflation. And skaters now don’t have to wait to make money by going “pro,” like they used to. It only takes one for the US ladies to succeed. And they may have the one in Alysa Liu.

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Regardless the middle class has less effective wealth than it used to. Our economy in the US have moved a lot of money to the wealthiest families. Far fewer families have the extra money any longer. And this issue feeds itself. So when skating was more popular and more families could afford it, ice costs were cheaper because more kids were on the ice at the same time. Now you'll have freestyle ice with ten or less people and they are paying twice what they could if there were 20+ people on the ice at the same time. This is illustrated perfectly in my area where at the large club ice is $10/hr but at the smaller clubs it's $20/hr.

ivylewis1547 said:

It's interesting that US ladies figure skating has struggled so much when US women's gymnastics is so dominant. I was curious so I crunched some numbers:

In the past six years of ladies' figure skating, Russia won 10 of 18 possible medals at the most important competition of the year (I didn't count 2014 or 2018 Worlds). It won 6 of 6 possible championships. Russia has not lost a championship since 2013 (Yuna Kim).

In the past seventeen years of women's gymnastics, the US won 25 of 34 (73.5%) possible medals at the most important competition of the year (individual all-around). It won 14 of 17 (82.35%) possible championships. The US has not lost a championship since 2010 (Aliya Mustafina).

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I imagine the simple costs of running a gym are significantly lower than running an ice rink. Ice rinks in the US cost a lot of money. The electric requirement for keeping the ice through the spring, summer and fall, is significant. Plus you have to maintain Zams to clean the ice. What does a gym need? You buy the equipment, might have to maintain it some. It's far cheaper to get the inside to 70 than 45 plus keep the ice at 26 degrees. The simple overhead is much lower for gymnastics. It's far less of a risk to open a gym. What does it cost you if no one is using it? A bit of AC to keep the temperature okay. Versus an empty ice rink where no one has bought hourly ice?

KatGrace1925 said:

Let's say the cost hasn't changed, but the housing market has changed. Most people in my generation will never be able to afford to own a home and that was a normal thing for people in my parents and grandparents generation to do. Things in the US have changed and we don't have money to spend on niche sports that aren't popular. Ice rinks are also few and far between in comparison to something like gyms. I live in the large city in the US, there are 3 ice rinks to service the entire 3M population. I think one of them might have closed down recently. In comparison there's a gym training gymnastics in nearly ever zip code. Gymnastics is much more popular in the US than figure skating, and there's a college circuit + opportunity for college scholarships so even if one doesn't go elite they have future options. There isn't much opportunity for the future if you're a low level figure skater.

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Also, gymnastics for low level athletes is seen as something that is good for health and body, while skating is more dangerous with less options at the end. A little girl starts gymnastics and goes on to cheer-leading, ballet, dancing, etc.; may get scholarships; or uses it as a building block for general fitness. A little girl goes into skating, breaks her leg and stops.

Nirti said:

For 2014 and 2018, Maagii explained that she counted the OG instead of Worlds, as the "most important competition of the year".

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Yes, how convenient. It lowers Russia’s winning rate to 50%.

ivylewis1547 said:

It's interesting that US ladies figure skating has struggled so much when US women's gymnastics is so dominant. I was curious so I crunched some numbers:

In the past six years of ladies' figure skating, Russia won 10 of 18 possible medals at the most important competition of the year (I didn't count 2014 or 2018 Worlds). It won 6 of 6 possible championships. Russia has not lost a championship since 2013 (Yuna Kim).

In the past seventeen years of women's gymnastics, the US won 25 of 34 (73.5%) possible medals at the most important competition of the year (individual all-around). It won 14 of 17 (82.35%) possible championships. The US has not lost a championship since 2010 (Aliya Mustafina).

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There's literally gyms everywhere and the amount of kids I know who do gymnastics young even if they don't go on to do it as they get older is huge. The costs aren't near as high and with so many gyms and so many kids doing it the US has has their pick of talents and formed a good training system for identifying and fostering talent. We saw how horrible things could come from their system, but honestly Russia right now having so many rinks and so many kids doing skating young reminds me a bit of the US gymnastics system. Eteri has a lot of talent to choose from so it doesn't surprise me she's been able to identify talent.

KatGrace1925 said:

but honestly Russia right now having so many rinks and so many kids doing skating young reminds me a bit of the US gymnastics system.

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Can I ask you. Where did you get this information? As I know ice skating in Russia is very expensive. And there are not so many rinks in Russia especially when compared with US.

Also I want to ask you, what about popularity of women ice skating in US? I watched again FS Skate America recently. The ice hall was half empty.

I don't mind there being a hegemony of one country for a while. There was Russia in Pairs for many, many years and I kept on loving pairs - including quite a few of those Russian pairs. There was the US in ladies, and I was a big fan of Michelle (and, by the way, of Irina Slutskaya as well). But I've never been a fan of kids, and I suppose I never will be. Nothing to do with the results or even the skating. Tara had the greatest skate ever in the 1998 Olympics, but then she left. She was a child then and not so interesting, despite the triple loop-triple loop combo (Oh, I remember that!). It's why I only started to appreciate Medvedeva and Zagitova since last year, and not before. These kids doing great things are amazing, but don't make me a fan of their skating. It makes me admire the 3A but I don't root for them (even if I love the presence of Trusova's dog Tina, which shows once again how young she really is), because I'd rather root for someone who will stay on for longer. These young girls might be gone next year. Maybe Kostornaia won't, then that's the young woman to root for. It's why I love the grandpa's and Carolina. And, yes, Tuktamisheva who started off as one of the young guns but now illustrates you can remain interesting after becoming a woman. They're heroes and personalities...you can follow them through the years. The same applies to Javi and Yuzu. Except when you're Russian, Canadian, Japanese, or American yourself, you wish for skaters to follow through the years (edit: and I suspect many coming from those countries also like to follow a skater through time). At least I do. And whether that's Russian, etc. skaters or otherwise is not really the point.

el henry said:

The amount of money that skaters in the US make now, even without going pro, is unfortunately in no way comparable to the heyday of “amateur” sports, even accounting for inflation.

And any athlete anywhere who recives state funding is at an advantage, funding wise, compared to American athletes who get no state funding. No matter their level, no matter their success, no matter the popularity of the sport.

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I'm sure Russian funds other sports like Track and Field and Swimming and of course gymnastics so why does the US dominate Russia in those sports without government funding? Just watch the Summer Olympics and see how Russia does against the US in the overall medal count since the breakup of the Soviet Union.

Jammers said:

I'm sure Russian funds other sports like Track and Field and Swimming and of course gymnastics so why does the US dominate Russia in those sports without government funding? Just watch the Summer Olympics and see how Russia does against the US in the overall medal count since the breakup of the Soviet Union.

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Because swimming and gymnastics offer college scholarships. Because swimming and gymnastics do not require nearly the investment that figure skating does to start out with. And because swimming and gymnastics offer far more chances (or at least gymnastics) for private financial benefit at the highest levels, thus incentivizing investment at the lower levels.

I stand by what I said, any sport that has state funding starts at an advantage from sports that don’t. In the US, athletes can catch up later in other sports with other avenues of private funding.

But not so in figure skating

Of course it is a cycle. As is everything in life. Everything changes, nothing stays the same. This too shall pass. Ever heard that and know where it was first written? Empires rise and fall faster than ever. We can predict that countries like Russia, Japan and Korea and maybe a China will and have surpassed the cycles of the past where champions came from Europe, the US and Canada. Obviously a country providing elite training free to handpicked short slim girls will dominate as long as the judges reward the jumps way above a balanced mature skate.

Maybe there will be age changes. Maybe jump limits. Eteri decided to push young talent to the max physically and backload programs to win. Then they changed the rules. I predict a backlash against her eventually and rules changing to bring back balance. But when or if this happens is anyone’s guess. She will continue for at least the next two years and Olympiad to produce champions. I do not see this continuing forever because Inreally see the backlash coming and age limits and rules to protect these young girls being put in place if the sport is to survive.

I’m not against the experiment going on but my guess is that this is the max technically for tiny 15 year old girls. I don’t see people caring about a sport like gymnastics that only allows little girls to succeed. The fact that most of the larger, heavier men cannot do what Anna or Trusova currently do will matter as well. I didn’t even watch Russian men’s singles. We now expect only a few skaters to do quads and choreography. I watch Chen, Hanyu Shona Uno, maybe Keegan Messing. I miss Javi Fernandez. I always watched his programs. I also watch Jason Brown because he is the cream of the crop when it comes to skating skills and beauty of movement. It is frustrating to see him fall on a triple axel or mess up any triple though at this stage of his career. He can’t compete with the smaller guys. There are so many men from the past who are Mitch better skaters. You can watch Paul Wylie or any of those guys. They are so much more satisfying. But the young fans likely want the big jumps and that is why all the fuss is about Eteri group. If these girls can only last two years doing this before other girls catch up then is this really pushing the sport sustainably? We do not know yet. No one knows the physical affect of this pounding on growing bones.

I’d agree with Phil Hersh, Alina got out alive and not badly injured. She has the big medals and she should not try to injure herself to keep up with this quad craze. She will have an amazing future. Young champions isn’t new in skating but the short shelf like of girl jumpers is new.

So many things could totally change the success of Sambo 70. But what the young don’t know is nothing on this earth lasts long anymore and that every art and sport and science is accelerating exponentially. I’m much older than the average poster here and I have been through a life most couldn’t bear to know about. So with age and experience comes perspective. Another thing that might happen and should if sports was fair is Russia being banned from everything until they stop doping their athletes in other sports. I know there is no evidence as yet that this is happening to this young girls but if it is found, there will be a total ban of all skaters. I am not following this currently but it is a possibility that there will be more than a slap on their hands. Many sports leaders and countries are advocating for this. So who knows the future?

If she were A business would you invest your money if you could make money off her champions? A gold medal in the Us was once worth ten million. Knowing what I have learned from this forum I would not invest money in the Eteri school. I doubt any thoughtful,informed person would. The product fails after 2.5 years in nearly every case. I use the word product because I don’t see these children being treated as precious unique individuals. Russia loves winning more than she loves her athletes and we know this because of the state sanctioned doping. There is a big emotional cost to these girls when they no longer win. Look at all their sad little faces. Yes, they are tough strong girls so we have not seen a tragedy. Yet. But One has only to look at Gracie Gold to se the price elite skaters pay when they deal with maturing bodies. So many eating disorders in skating and gymnastics.

I have said before that I was not her fan after she admitted that she did not let tiny Lipnitskaya eat. That is all I needed to hear. Evgenia and Anna had same frame. Look at Evgenia how upset she is. She was taught Gold is all that matters. Does anyone think that Anna can maintain this weight or should? I know she will be thin as her frame is tiny but five pounds can change everything. I would call this in some cases and some places an extremely punishing sport. Sorry so long. There have been a train of broken hearted Russian girls to watch for 5 years now. For the girls I wish the best. Skating has never been a long term thing for 99 percent of these champions. So while we expect to see fireworks and amazing things it seems like only older people recognize how great is the emotional and in some cases physical cost of pushing children to the limit.

Nirti said:

For 2014 and 2018, Maagii explained that she counted the OG instead of Worlds, as the "most important competition of the year".

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Or left out as a convenience as Russian women produced only 1 of 6 podium finishes in both comps.

Some it would appear, only include stats that work in their favour. Revisionist history or just plain denial, ...I wonder.

skateluvr said:

Of course it is a cycle. As is everything in life. Everything changes, nothing stays the same. This too shall pass. Ever heard that and know where it was first written?

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It's Persian. The story goes that the Sultan commissioned his wise men to come up with an inscription that was equally appropriate in good times and bad.

By the way, it is kind of interesting to compare the nature of Russian figure skating dominance today with what it meant in the past.

In pairs, the Soviet Union won 14 straight world championships from 1965 to 1978. But this was due to two teams, Belousova and Protopopov and Rodina and her two partners. The modern "hegemony" in ladies is more a revolving door.

In spite of their overall success, only two individuals (Medvedeva and Slutskaya) have won more than one world championship. Maybe we are entering an era where "schools," or coaching consortia, or training systems will be the key, rather than individual athletes.

KatGrace1925 said:

Not exactly, economics have shifted here. What was feasible for a middle class family to do in terms of paying for the sport is different then than it is now. There has been inflation of basic necessities and not much change in salary in the US which has caused a shift where the middle class can no longer afford things that were affordable in the past. Good luck paying for your kids competitive career without a 200k income.

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Economics here have not shifted for the worse. We are fortunate to live in a robust economy where everyone has a chance to live a relatively good life. Salaries and lifestyle have only gotten better. I grew up in a middle class family quite a few years ago and skated for about 4 years. My parents could not afford the lessons and ice time for me to really grow as a skater. It’s always been an ultra expensive sport for most Americans. If I’m not mistaken, most US skaters that made it big had upper income parents. This had nothing to do with the economy then nor does it now. Figure skating is unfortunately not a popular sport in the US for people to watch or participate in. With the lack of attention comes the lack of wealthy parents who sign their kids up to try it. American parents are given many opportunities for their children to play sports. Soccer, football, basketball, baseball and softball are hugely popular for many American kids and their families. These sports are valued, relatively inexpensive and teach teamwork. I just don’t see a chance for American figure skating to ever catch up to programs run in countries such as Russia.

Alyssa Liu? She seems to have the resources & a very heavily invested father who seems to be calling some of the shots. She could potentially split the 3A & nab a senior podium position

skateluvr said:

Of course it is a cycle. As is everything in life. Everything changes, nothing stays the same. This too shall pass. Ever heard that and know where it was first written? Empires rise and fall faster than ever. We can predict that countries like Russia, Japan and Korea and maybe a China will and have surpassed the cycles of the past where champions came from Europe, the US and Canada. Obviously a country providing elite training free to handpicked short slim girls will dominate as long as the judges reward the jumps way above a balanced mature skate.

Maybe there will be age changes. Maybe jump limits. Eteri decided to push young talent to the max physically and backload programs to win. Then they changed the rules. I predict a backlash against her eventually and rules changing to bring back balance. But when or if this happens is anyone’s guess. She will continue for at least the next two years and Olympiad to produce champions. I do not see this continuing forever because Inreally see the backlash coming and age limits and rules to protect these young girls being put in place if the sport is to survive.

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I hope it will be soon. The ISU does do some research, but not the right research IMHO. They did a study of the quad twist in pairs, and the result was that if you were skilled and did it well, it wasn’t that dangerous. If you weren’t very good at it it was more dangerous. Crazy I know, I never would have guessed it. So what do they do? Devalue quad twist until it’s not worth doing.

I’m not against the experiment going on but my guess is that this is the max technically for tiny 15 year old girls. I don’t see people caring about a sport like gymnastics that only allows little girls to succeed. The fact that most of the larger, heavier men cannot do what Anna or Trusova currently do will matter as well. I didn’t even watch Russian men’s singles. We now expect only a few skaters to do quads and choreography. I watch Chen, Hanyu Shona Uno, maybe Keegan Messing. I miss Javi Fernandez. I always watched his programs. I also watch Jason Brown because he is the cream of the crop when it comes to skating skills and beauty of movement. It is frustrating to see him fall on a triple axel or mess up any triple though at this stage of his career. He can’t compete with the smaller guys. There are so many men from the past who are Mitch better skaters. You can watch Paul Wylie or any of those guys. They are so much more satisfying. But the young fans likely want the big jumps and that is why all the fuss is about Eteri group. If these girls can only last two years doing this before other girls catch up then is this really pushing the sport sustainably? We do not know yet. No one knows the physical affect of this pounding on growing bones.

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I’m ready for the experiment to be over. I don’t like the skating to begin with and then being afraid these children (and that is what they are) will be crippled before 30 it’s even worse.

Gymnastics has changed. One no longer needs to be a little girl to succeed. It isn’t uncommon for female gymnasts to compete for 2 or even more Olympiads. Also, being too small has its disadvantages. If one is too small one runs down to the vaulting table and can’t move the springboard when one jumps on it, thus resulting in a much less powerful vault, and one can’t do powerful tumbling on the floor. On the other hand, being small is valuable in uneven bars.

I’d agree with Phil Hersh, Alina got out alive and not badly injured. She has the big medals and she should not try to injure herself to keep up with this quad craze. She will have an amazing future. Young champions isn’t new in skating but the short shelf like of girl jumpers is new.

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I would agree, but what if SHE wanted to continue? The only thing I can think of that is worse than a horrendously expensive sport is s horrendously expensive sport where one has to make their mark by 15 or be done.

I have said before that I was not her fan after she admitted that she did not let tiny Lipnitskaya eat. That is all I needed to hear. Evgenia and Anna had same frame. Look at Evgenia how upset she is. She was taught Gold is all that matters. Does anyone think that Anna can maintain this weight or should? I know she will be thin as her frame is tiny but five pounds can change everything. I would call this in some cases and some places an extremely punishing sport. Sorry so long. There have been a train of broken hearted Russian girls to watch for 5 years now. For the girls I wish the best. Skating has never been a long term thing for 99 percent of these champions. So while we expect to see fireworks and amazing things it seems like only older people recognize how great is the emotional and in some cases physical cost of pushing children to the limit.

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I think not allowing children to eat or encouraging disordered eating in any way, shape or form should be grounds for lifetime ban.