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I sure hope not, Mathman. I’m a fan of individual skaters, not training systems.
Russian Hegemony in Ladies Ice Skating
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I sure hope not, Mathman. I’m a fan of individual skaters, not training systems.
For me, this is a consequence of the transitional era more than anything else. First there came ladies who were able to maximize "standard" tech content, Zhenya, Alina. Then there came new skaters with ultra-c elements acquired and mastered. And I think this situation will be fixed in the upcoming years for some time before some new revolution will came again.
Alas, it is not the matter of just the last few years. Since Michelle Kwan won her last worlds title there were only four skaters who won worlds multiple times, Mao Asada, Miki Ando, Yuna Kim and Zhenya Medvedeva and she was the only one who won her two titles back to back. All the others won their second (or third in Mao's case) title four years after the previous one, so it is pretty soon to make a conclusion whether recent skaters are able to win multiple times.
A quick comment on the fly: something I've seen few mention
The Russian ice skaters have a complete program to avail themselves with - scholling training, constumes, coaching, training. It costs them practically nothing (though I am sure there's some agreement with the skating school that they get a certain percentage "commission" from winning purses). Parents' job is to let their children skate, support them as families do anbe there for emergencies, and not interfere.
Now, cut to the average coach/rink in the US (Or Canada): the costs are enormous - only the well-off and/or most committed can even afford to have their young skater compete regionallly, much less nationally. For an intermediate level skater nowadays (that'd be age 9-11 on average these days, as people got ever younger) if the skater does well enough to travel to sectionals you are likely looking at $30K/year - that BEFORE there is any scholarship or USFSA support. If they make it to nationals, they may receive a few $'s but it's a drop in the bucket.
Now scroll forward to Novice and Junior and we have something close to $40-50K IF the skater gets to stay and skate locally AND gets to travel to competitions and does reasonably well to continue their endeavor. And IF they were not cruel enough (to their parents) to choose ice dance (which is another story).
So how many potentially great skaters can not afford either the cost or the cop with the heatbreak and the mental anguish that comes with a skater that's good enough to make it out of their regionals? I think it's a fraction.
So yes, Russian, Chinese, japanese and Korean skaters have it all over the American and Canadians. Which may be why we have the results we have. training IS a big deal and top coaches ain't cheap. Fancy sending your precious child to train with Eteri. just think how likely that'd be. Or, with Misha, or brian or have Nicol do their choreography.
I signed up for this forum just so i can point out the reality. Which in the US is difficult. You are only ever seeing the lucky ones who had the right combination of parents, resources, talent and willingness to sacrifice. Go to any competitive rink and survey the parents of the competitive skaters (and do include - please - the "also rans". After all, someone has to come in at 10th and 11th).
Mind you I haven't even started to point out the even more serious difficulties with men's skating in the US (but that's for another day).
The Russian ice skaters have a complete program to avail themselves with - scholling training, constumes, coaching, training. It costs them practically nothing (though I am sure there's some agreement with the skating school that they get a certain percentage "commission" from winning purses). Parents' job is to let their children skate, support them as families do anbe there for emergencies, and not interfere.
Now, cut to the average coach/rink in the US (Or Canada): the costs are enormous - only the well-off and/or most committed can even afford to have their young skater compete regionallly, much less nationally. For an intermediate level skater nowadays (that'd be age 9-11 on average these days, as people got ever younger) if the skater does well enough to travel to sectionals you are likely looking at $30K/year - that BEFORE there is any scholarship or USFSA support. If they make it to nationals, they may receive a few $'s but it's a drop in the bucket.
Now scroll forward to Novice and Junior and we have something close to $40-50K IF the skater gets to stay and skate locally AND gets to travel to competitions and does reasonably well to continue their endeavor. And IF they were not cruel enough (to their parents) to choose ice dance (which is another story).
So how many potentially great skaters can not afford either the cost or the cop with the heatbreak and the mental anguish that comes with a skater that's good enough to make it out of their regionals? I think it's a fraction.
So yes, Russian, Chinese, japanese and Korean skaters have it all over the American and Canadians. Which may be why we have the results we have. training IS a big deal and top coaches ain't cheap. Fancy sending your precious child to train with Eteri. just think how likely that'd be. Or, with Misha, or brian or have Nicol do their choreography.
I signed up for this forum just so i can point out the reality. Which in the US is difficult. You are only ever seeing the lucky ones who had the right combination of parents, resources, talent and willingness to sacrifice. Go to any competitive rink and survey the parents of the competitive skaters (and do include - please - the "also rans". After all, someone has to come in at 10th and 11th).
Mind you I haven't even started to point out the even more serious difficulties with men's skating in the US (but that's for another day).
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It is really hard for young US ice skaters to get from here to there
A quick comment on the fly: something I've seen few mention
The Russian ice skaters have a complete program to avail themselves with - scholling training, constumes, coaching, training. It costs them practically nothing (though I am sure there's some agreement with the skating school that they get a certain percentage "commission" from winning purses). Parents' job is to let their children skate, support them as families do anbe there for emergencies, and not interfere.
Now, cut to the average coach/rink in the US (Or Canada): the costs are enormous - only the well-off and/or most committed can even afford to have their young skater compete regionallly, much less nationally. For an intermediate level skater nowadays (that'd be age 9-11 on average these days, as people got ever younger) if the skater does well enough to travel to sectionals you are likely looking at $30K/year - that BEFORE there is any scholarship or USFSA support. If they make it to nationals, they may receive a few $'s but it's a drop in the bucket.
Now scroll forward to Novice and Junior and we have something close to $40-50K IF the skater gets to stay and skate locally AND gets to travel to competitions and does reasonably well to continue their endeavor. And IF they were not cruel enough (to their parents) to choose ice dance (which is another story).
So how many potentially great skaters can not afford either the cost or the cop with the heatbreak and the mental anguish that comes with a skater that's good enough to make it out of their regionals? I think it's a fraction.
So yes, Russian, Chinese, japanese and Korean skaters have it all over the American and Canadians. Which may be why we have the results we have. training IS a big deal and top coaches ain't cheap. Fancy sending your precious child to train with Eteri. just think how likely that'd be. Or, with Misha, or brian or have Nicol do their choreography.
I signed up for this forum just so i can point out the reality. Which in the US is difficult. You are only ever seeing the lucky ones who had the right combination of parents, resources, talent and willingness to sacrifice. Go to any competitive rink and survey the parents of the competitive skaters (and do include - please - the "also rans". After all, someone has to come in at 10th and 11th).
Mind you I haven't even started to point out the even more serious difficulties with men's skating in the US (but that's for another day).
A quick comment on the fly: something I've seen few mention
The Russian ice skaters have a complete program to avail themselves with - scholling training, constumes, coaching, training. It costs them practically nothing (though I am sure there's some agreement with the skating school that they get a certain percentage "commission" from winning purses). Parents' job is to let their children skate, support them as families do anbe there for emergencies, and not interfere.
Now, cut to the average coach/rink in the US (Or Canada): the costs are enormous - only the well-off and/or most committed can even afford to have their young skater compete regionallly, much less nationally. For an intermediate level skater nowadays (that'd be age 9-11 on average these days, as people got ever younger) if the skater does well enough to travel to sectionals you are likely looking at $30K/year - that BEFORE there is any scholarship or USFSA support. If they make it to nationals, they may receive a few $'s but it's a drop in the bucket.
Now scroll forward to Novice and Junior and we have something close to $40-50K IF the skater gets to stay and skate locally AND gets to travel to competitions and does reasonably well to continue their endeavor. And IF they were not cruel enough (to their parents) to choose ice dance (which is another story).
So how many potentially great skaters can not afford either the cost or the cop with the heatbreak and the mental anguish that comes with a skater that's good enough to make it out of their regionals? I think it's a fraction.
So yes, Russian, Chinese, japanese and Korean skaters have it all over the American and Canadians. Which may be why we have the results we have. training IS a big deal and top coaches ain't cheap. Fancy sending your precious child to train with Eteri. just think how likely that'd be. Or, with Misha, or brian or have Nicol do their choreography.
I signed up for this forum just so i can point out the reality. Which in the US is difficult. You are only ever seeing the lucky ones who had the right combination of parents, resources, talent and willingness to sacrifice. Go to any competitive rink and survey the parents of the competitive skaters (and do include - please - the "also rans". After all, someone has to come in at 10th and 11th).
Mind you I haven't even started to point out the even more serious difficulties with men's skating in the US (but that's for another day).
It is not true "it costs them practically nothing". The question of costs was discussed here many times. Though the direct costs are lower nominally, it is still some 4-5$ per hour with a top coach, which is definitely not a small amount of money, and only those in national team have those costs paid (though there is some financial help from local organizations for others as well). Then, there are of course another question, the indirect costs. Living and moving. Top talented skaters are not born only in Moscow and St. Petersburg, and if a skater from a small city wants to move to the top team, his family must break several piggy banks to cover such expenses. And this nobody will pay for them. Just look how difficult it was for Alina Zagitova to move from Izhevsk to Moscow, she was lucky that the hockey club of her father was willing to find a flat for her and her babushka and pay for it, otherwise we may have not seen her on the top at all.
It's pretty delusional to imagine that there is almighty state that will take all the costs and skaters and their families don't have any concerns or expenses. Yes, state supports young athletes and sport clubs in some way (which is common in all Europe, not only Russia), but this help is limited and doesn't deprive skaters and families the main sacrifice they have to make.
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I would like to point out that even very rich and committed parents in China would have problems supporting their skater child, as at least North America still have Raf, Brian, Carroll, etc. Who even knows the name of Chen Hongyi's coach, or Li Zijun's? Have they produced anyone internationally known other than that one student? Are there even any factories in China that make competition grade skates? Any world class skating choreographers? And that's not even going into all the politics with China's Skating Fed...
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I'd add Anastasia Tarakanova's story as well. Despite being included in the Russia's National Team (junior), she still had to start a GoFundMe to collect finances and stated that she'd need about 3 million rubles (42k euros) for the season to rent a flat, attend training camps and pay additional training and medical costs.
Many Chinese skaters use Lori Nichol for their choreography--Li Zijun, Sui/Han, Jin Boyang.
What does a skater have to do to get state funding in Russia? I'm assuming there has to be some showing of talent.
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Not only that but if they are so fortunate as to win an OGM they have to pay big money to the IRS.
There used to be Michael Weiss Foundation which could at least help some promising skaters, but no longer exists.
USFS needs a lot more money. I’ve thought of leaving my estate to them but I’m not sure what they’d do with stuffies, glitter, makeup, sparkly shoes, and cats.
If I ever won the lottery...Chris and Alexa, your training is funded! Kaitlyn and Jean Luc, your training is funded! Andrew Austin, your training is funded!
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This might be incorrect info but I heard there was a push to open ice new rinks in Moscow years back for recreational purposes and that because of it more kids went into skating and that following Sotnikova's win even more girls wanted to do it. It seems figure skating is at least more popular there similar to the level of gymnastics here which breeds interest. As it is in the US figure skating is not popular at all, some people watch during the olympics but there was a steady decline between the Tonya scandal and the 2002 judging scandal. People lost interest. As a kid I remember everyone watched figure skating at the olympics but the Winter Olympics in general seems to be in decline in the US and skating along with it.
Some have speculated it is due to the lack of US champions but from what I saw it was more about the perceived unfairness and cheating in judging. Now if you mention figure skating here the most response you'll get is oh did you see that movie that came out, I, Tonya? That's peoples response to me. No one knows the current skaters, but they all like to chat about if Tonya was guilty or not.
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Well put and well explained. Thanks fo signing up and post often!:thumbsup:
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Brian has been in China a lot recently giving seminars. I don't know if that is enough to pass on enough knowledge to chinese coaches or not.
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The Chinese Fed reached a package deal with Lori a long time ago and hasn't shown much willingness to provide/fund alternatives. She's world class, but she's like an upgraded version of Daniil for the Eteri girls, i.e. she's your only option as long as you're training at that place (in this case, China). Pretty much all top Chinese skaters just get her choreography year after year. Granted, she's had great results with some (Sui/Han), but many skaters have expressed a wish to find/experiment with someone else, and encountered significant difficulties upon trying to do so. Many domestic Chinese fans have also suggested that she spends far more effort on some skating teams/skaters than others (since the entire Fed is a package deal anyway), which is unfair to those she spends less time on.
Didn't Shoma spend some time with Eteri (?) and Vincent some time with Hamada (?) You could definitely learn some stuff from them, and I think Sui's mentioned stabilizing her 3S with some tips from Raf, but it's still not the same as training full time under a great coach, especially one who can speak your language.
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Russian hegemony in ladies is about one coach and her school. Others in Russia and other countries try to copy with little success so far. Will it be forever? Rather no than yes. In my school there was a professor Jim Collins. He wrote a famous book "Built to last". He claimed that he found the recipe for companies to be eternally successful. He gave examples of such companies. Ironically some of them went out of business since then like the infamous Fannie Mae.
Those who have talent are much more numerous than those who are in the national team. Not to mention that you have to be 13. Before then you are not, so since 4/5 to 16/14 you have very little chance for funding. Talent is not enough.
So what else, besides talent?
Getting to the national team. That means results first in domestic competitions (esp. Russian cup), then on international level. There are about 6 or 7 skaters in the team and about 2 substitudes. There are tens or hundreds of skaters who can have talent but zero or just some little support. And, the support means that travelling expenses or living costs are fully or partially paid, not that everything is paid, like training, dance lessons and so on, that's complete nonsense. The support also means that coaches are paid partially by state or local federations, therefore lessons can be relatively cheap (in comparison with the commercial coach on the west or with someone like Plushenko), but not that skater doesn't need to care about the money at all, even that 4-5 $ per hour is still pretty expensive for many families. Without the support of the family it would be very hard to train in long term.
So, it probably is easier for the kid from (financially) average family in Russia to start training in some local team than for the kid in America, in local sport teams for kids the cost is probably just some small fee, but then, when the kid has talent and want to get to the city like Moscow or St. Petersburg to the top team, it is very costly. As I've said, e.g. in Alina's case it was her father's hockey club who found a flat for her in Moscow and paid for it, just because Ilnaz's previous credits in the team. There was zero state support in that. Sasha could move to Moscow because her father got the job there etc.
Those claims about the state who pays, but who also decides or directs everything are false. It's the athlete's iniciative (plus his family) to continue training elsewhere, not that somehow there would appear an agent at the local stadium "somewhere in Russia" (imagine those title in some espionage movie
) and said to the local coach and kid's parents "your kid has a talent, we are taking it to our school" and than putting the crying child to the car, driving hours through snowy Siberia to a sport centre reminding military barracks where hard training and Darwin's laws decide who will die and who will survive to the first competition like in young adult literature 
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Those claims about the state who pays, but who also decides or directs everything are false. It's the athlete's iniciative (plus his family) to continue training elsewhere, not that somehow the would appear an agent at the local stadium "somewhere in Russia" (imagine those title in some espionage movie
Judging by a short description of a recent Finnish film about a Russian skater who fled from Russia some people believe that it is exactly the case or alternatively some people want others to believe that it is exactly the case.
Get to the national team. That means results first in domestic competitions (esp. Russian cup), then on international level. There are about 6 or 7 skaters in the team and about 2 substitudes. There are tens or hundreds of skaters who can have talent but zero or just some little support. And, the support means that travelling expenses or living costs are fully or partially paid, not that everything is paid, like training, dance lessons and so on, that's complete nonsense. The support also means that coaches are paid partially by state or local federations, therefore lessons can be relatively cheap (in comparison with the commercial coach on the west or with someone like Plushenko), but not that skater doesn't need to care about the money at all, even that 4-5 $ per hour is still pretty expensive for many families. Without the support of the family it would be very hard to train in long term.
So, it probably is easier for the kid from (financially) average family in Russia to start training in some local team than for the kid in America, in local sport teams for kids the cost is probably just some small fee, but then, when the kid has talent and want to get to the city like Moscow or St. Petersburg to the top team, it is very costly. As I've said, e.g. in Alina's case it was her father's hockey club who found a flat for her in Moscow and paid for it, just because Ilnaz's previous credits in the team. There was zero state support in that. Sasha could move to Moscow because her father got the job there etc.
Those claims about the state who pays, but who also decides or directs everything are false. It's the athlete's iniciative (plus his family) to continue training elsewhere, not that somehow the would appear an agent at the local stadium "somewhere in Russia" (imagine those title in some espionage movie
So, in other words, it isn't that easy, financially, in Russia either, unless the skater is at the top competitively. That isn't so different from the way it is here because the top skaters get sponsors and USFSA funding, plus whatever they can make from shows and endorsements.
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