Russian Hegemony in Ladies Ice Skating

If there is a rink in whatever public school, every student is free to skate there. Like 13th sports school of Moscow, where Eteri is a coach (teacher basically). Simple as that. If there is a swimming pool - to swim, football section - to play football. Ages are gone, but people still can't understand... Public education is free, common. Or should be free in a modern developed state.

flanker said:

Get to the national team.

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Only the first step, but it's a doozy!

I would not call it a Russian hegemony. Take away Eteri group and Russia is pretty much aligned with US and Japan. Mishin's group is on a similar level with Rafael's or Hamada's.
I wonder how long Eteri will be dominating. From my knowledge, she works with kids since they are 4-5, while in the US the kids start being serious at 10. Plus a different approach, coach-parents relations, costs, commitments, etc, it all makes a difference.
Is the US system going to make an adjustment? Can US produce a US version of Eteri? Would Eteri be as successful in the US as she is in Russia? Would the US culture permit Eteri to employ the same methods in the US?
Of course, does the US market require such skaters? Do we have a market for American Kostornaias or Trusovas at the expense of culture adjustment? I don't think so. The status and benefits of being a top elite skater in Russia is incomparably higher than in the US.

Manitou said:

I would not call it a Russian domination. Take away Eteri group and Russia is pretty much aligned with US and Japan. Mishin's group is on a similar level with Rafael's or Hamada's.
I wonder how long Eteri will be dominating. From my knowledge, she works with kids since they are 4-5, while in the US the kids start being serious at 10. Plus a different approach, coach-parents relations, costs, commitments, etc, it all makes a difference.
Is the US system going to make an adjustment? Can US produce a US version of Eteri? Would Eteri be as successful in the US as she is in Russia? Would the US culture permit Eteri to employ the same methods in the US?

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Well, Raf's attitude is not much different to what Eteri does. He has to do some things differently as he speaks about it in interviews, but in many things he is still russian coach to the bones. From what he says the difference is more about parent's attitude than some "admissibility" of methods. Eteri's methods are work, being demanding, correcting every imperfection before it becomes a standard and letting competition on her rink. Nothing "secret", after all, her trainings are free.

And BTW, e.g. with Alina Eteri started to work since her 13, with since her 10-11, with Sasha and Aliona since their 11-12, so of today's top senior skaters she worked with a skater from this young age only with Zhenya (since about 6-7). There are very young kids in her team, but those did not reach the age for international competitions yet. And again, many of the skaters, when came to her, weren't seen as "children stars" or "prodigies" at all.

jenaj said:

So, in other words, it isn't that easy, financially, in Russia either, unless the skater is at the top competitively. That isn't so different from the way it is here because the top skaters get sponsors and USFSA funding, plus whatever they can make from shows and endorsements.

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Yes. As I say, if there is something in "support" from the state, it is that most coaches are state employees, so the lessons for russian skaters are significantly cheaper than it would be on fully commercial basis (like in private Plushenko's School, for instance, where the lessons are very expensive), but not free. also, the support provides that local sporting clubs for kids have some state support (or support from local authorities), so again for average kid to start with sport is not so finantially demanding (on the basic lavel). But this is pretty common in Europe, there is some form of state or public support of sport esp. for kids in most european countries. E.g. in my country it is the army who is financing many sporting clubs, in some other countries it is police (e.g. Carolina Kostner is officially a police officer ).

But again that doesn't mean that young kids and their families are "cost-free". For example in my country one of the reasons why our ice hockey is going down is that since the communist era till the 90's the support for not only clubs but also athletes was much higher, e.g. there was public subsidy for families for buying the gear (with young boys growing they need new gear very few months), but than this support stopped or was significantly reduced and now which means much higher expenses for families which many families can't afford. Ice hockey is slowly becoming the sport for boys from wealthy families, which means huge reduction of talents.

I have the feeling this "hegemony" will end after the next Olympics...

Darline said:

A quick comment on the fly: something I've seen few mention

The Russian ice skaters have a complete program to avail themselves with - scholling training, constumes, coaching, training. It costs them practically nothing (though I am sure there's some agreement with the skating school that they get a certain percentage "commission" from winning purses). Parents' job is to let their children skate, support them as families do anbe there for emergencies, and not interfere.

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It never fails to amaze me when people write something so confidently on a subject they have absolutely no idea about. Just an example for you - Liza Khudaiberdiyeva's (JWC 2019 silver medalist) parents have spent 20 mln Roubles on her skating career so far (that's approx $322K). "Practically nothing", sure.

That is my understanding too. Also, it appears in the US if you are desirable there are much more opportunities for substantial endorsements/sponsors.This is not the same "old" system of C ommunist / state run sport machines. I do think though with the US and Japan ladies so strong that the lock is no longer there. And the waive of 15/16 yo by the time 2022 comes arounds does not seem to be as strong as the 3A's. By then Alyssa will be age eligible and ready to fight for OGM and one will or could assume Rhika will continue to develop and gain strength and that her body won't change that much it appears.

ivylewis1547 said:

It's interesting that US ladies figure skating has struggled so much when US women's gymnastics is so dominant. I was curious so I crunched some numbers:

In the past six years of ladies' figure skating, Russia won 10 of 18 possible medals at the most important competition of the year (I didn't count 2014 or 2018 Worlds). It won 6 of 6 possible championships. Russia has not lost a championship since 2013 (Yuna Kim).

In the past seventeen years of women's gymnastics, the US won 25 of 34 (73.5%) possible medals at the most important competition of the year (individual all-around). It won 14 of 17 (82.35%) possible championships. The US has not lost a championship since 2010 (Aliya Mustafina).

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Russia lost Worlds to Mao Asada in 2014 with harsh scoring and to Katelyn Osmond in 2018. However, your manipulation of statistics in trying to deny this fact and give Russia an even greater numerical advantage by arbitrarily deciding which competitions are worthy is consistent with the liberties in advantageous scoring that have been granted to Eteri's women skaters with no better illustration available than the presumptuous power play memo by the Russian federation pushing tech crews and judges to give even more preferential scoring this season, which quickly resulted in an even greater relative scoring boost. More recently, there is the big boost in scores given to Anna and Alena at Nationals with Sasha also being scored very generously for her mistakes compared to the very strict and even underscoring of Japanese and Korean skaters at their own Nationals, which could easily be used to set a precedent for even greater future scoring inequality. Anna, Alena and Sasha also but not to the same extent are very talented in my opinion and have given many excellent performances as have Alina and Evgenia before them, and they would have done very well even with more fair scoring. However, hegemony will only have a fair chance to end when the power apparatus is pushed to be a lot more balanced instead of being so out of whack now that the best non Eteri 15 year old challengers must make up a big handicap in scoring. Or perhaps, even in overcoming this big handicap these potentially hard earned wins will also be overlooked in your manipulative narrative. In the interim, viewers are more and more invited to decide for themselves what the real scores, and even real placements, should or could be with no real grounding in fair scoring. This is even more true since figure skating is largely based on a wide range of subjective tastes in the first place with an increasingly narrow range available to place well in competitions under the currently biased system and it's manipulative implementation.

gotoschool said:

Russia lost Worlds to Mao Asada in 2014 with harsh scoring and to Katelyn Osmond in 2018. However, your manipulation of statistics in trying to deny this fact and give Russia an even greater numerical advantage by arbitrarily deciding which competitions are worthy is totally consistent with the liberties in advantageous scoring that have been granted to Eteri's women skaters with no better illustration available than the presumptuous power play memo by the Russian federation pushing judges to give even more preferential scoring this season, which quickly resulted in an even greater relative scoring boost. More recently, there is the astronomical increase in scores given to Anna and Alena at Nationals with Sasha also being scored very generously for her mistakes compared to the very strict and even underscoring of Japanese and Korean skaters at their own Nationals, which could easily be used to set a precedent for future scoring inequality. Anna, Alena Anna and Alena and Sasha also but not to the same extent are very talented in my opinion and have given many excellent performances as were Alina and Evgenia before them and they would have done very well even with more fair scoring. However, hegemony will only end when the power apparatus is pushed to be a lot more balanced instead of being so out of whack now that the best non Eteri 15 year old challengers must make up a big handicap in scoring. Or perhaps, even in overcoming this big handicap these potentially hard earned wins will also be overlooked in your manipulative narrative. In the interim, viewers are more and more invited to decide for themselves what the real scores, and even real placements, should or could be with no real grounding in fair scoring. This is even more true since figure skating is largely based on a wide range of subjective tastes in the first place with an increasingly narrow range available to place well in competitions under the currently biased system.

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Um... excuse me but...
what does scoring on russian nationals has to do with scoring on Korean and Japanese nationals...
Okay, Russia inflated the scores at nationals (albeit, its quite normal and it’s not taken into consideration internationally) and Korea and Japan deflated their scores... how’s that exactly pinned on Russia?
I mean, unless the ever powerful Russia makes Koreans and Japanese purposefully underscore their own athletes at their own nationals, which totally makes sense I guess...

I don’t mind criticism, but some are out there egging everything in this world on Russia, it’s a bit much, people. That country is no angel, but I’m not sure it’s fair making it out to be like they’re root of all evil in the world.
I mean, every single score *some people are personally not happy with is suddenly a big grand scheme of Russia messing with the scores.
What’s next, some local ranking competition scores being Russia’s fault? Lmao.

Manitou said:

The status and benefits of being a top elite skater in Russia is incomparably higher than in the US.

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You may be right, but I am not sure about this? Do the top Russian skaters do as well as, say, Simone Biles? I don't know if even a Simone Biles equivalent in figure skating could make the sport as popular in the U.S. as it was in the '90s, but a dominant U.S. female skater could certainly rake in millions in endorsement and advertising money. Or perhaps you mean that the money earned goes farther in Russia?

crazydreamer said:

You may be right, but I am not sure about this? Do the top Russian skaters do as well as, say, Simone Biles? I don't know if even a Simone Biles equivalent in figure skating could make the sport as popular in the U.S. as it was in the '90s, but a dominant U.S. female skater could certainly rake in millions in endorsement and advertising money. Or perhaps you mean that the money earned goes farther in Russia?

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I'm not even talking about money here, but the number of opportunities for skaters, both active or retired. Just look at the skating shows in Russia, by Navka, Averbukh, Plushenko, probably others too, their coverage on their TV and packed arenas, numbers of clubs and competitions, social prestige and recognition.
What is Bradie going to do in the off-season when she is not competing? Or even now? SOI? It's a joke. TV shows? What shows?
I guess earning in rubles don't compare directly to earnings in dollars, but still - I see Radionova very active in shows and TV appearances, even though her career wasn't long or really significant. I'm not sure how it is really, but whatever Russian past name I can recall and google - they are all busy in figure skating activities. Shows, coaching, choreographing, federation careers, TV - there appears to be a market for them. What market is here in the US for all those past names? What is Bobek, Cohen and Meissner doing now in figure skating?

I'm even surprised that skating forums are still run by Americans on American servers. And the Russian and Japanese posters are moderated here by Americans according to American social standards. It should be totally opposite.

skateluvr said:

Russian athletes cannot compete under their own flag. But this is not enough to stop the doping.

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The athlete nationalities with the highest number of ADRVs:
ITALY (171)
FRANCE (128)
UNITED STATES (103)
BRAZIL (84)
RUSSIAN FEDERATION (82)
https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/2017_adrv_report.pdf

Manitou said:

I'm not even talking about money here, but the number of opportunities for skaters, both active or retired.... What is Bobek, Cohen and Meissner doing now in figure skating?

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That is a good point.

On the other hand, "ladies" figure skating in the U.S. has become more and more a recreational endeavor for teenagers. When the stars age out, they have the same options that any other young people have -- they can go back to school or they can get a job and get on with their lives.

Kimmie Meissner is currently attending university and is aiming to graduate in 2021 as a physician's assistant. Sasha Cohen has a degree from Columbia University and now works in the financial industry for Morgan Stanley.

Nicole Bobek had a troubled youth both in an out of skating. She later got her life back on track and is still involved in skating as a sometime performer and rink employee.

I guess the idea is, no one owes you a living just because you were once a successful athlete.

Manitou said:

I'm not even talking about money here, but the number of opportunities for skaters, both active or retired. Just look at the skating shows in Russia, by Navka, Averbukh, Plushenko, probably others too, their coverage on their TV and packed arenas, numbers of clubs and competitions, social prestige and recognition.
What is Bradie going to do in the off-season when she is not competing? Or even now? SOI? It's a joke. TV shows? What shows?
I guess earning in rubles don't compare directly to earnings in dollars, but still - I see Radionova very active in shows and TV appearances, even though her career wasn't long or really significant. I'm not sure how it is really, but whatever Russian past name I can recall and google - they are all busy in figure skating activities. Shows, coaching, choreographing, federation careers, TV - there appears to be a market for them. What market is here in the US for all those past names? What is Bobek, Cohen and Meissner doing now in figure skating?

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That’s definitely true, American skaters tend to go on to other professions and careers. I don’t think you can earn a very good standard of living as a professional skater in the US. In contrast, the work ethic of successful ex-amateur skaters makes them natural candidates for other professions that pay well. In other countries, it seems possible to have a decent life as a professional skater. Whether that’s because skating is simply more popular or because there are fewer alternatives for ex-amateurs, I have no idea.

I'm even surprised that skating forums are still run by Americans on American servers. And the Russian and Japanese posters are moderated here by Americans according to American social standards. It should be totally opposite.

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I’m sure there are Russian and Japanese forums in those countries, unless there are restrictions on social media of which I’m not aware. As far as I know, this site was created by Americans (or maybe Canadians?). I’m not sure what you are advocating exactly...that the people who created this site should give it over to Japanese posters because skating is more popular there? Seems like a strange idea to me.

In terms of social standards, IMO the mods here are actually very strict with American and other western posters when they say things that might offend posters of other nationalities. I think that is actually inconsistent with American social standards and more in line with the standards of other countries, but it’s not my board and so not my decision.

crazydreamer said:

In terms of social standards, IMO the mods here are actually very strict with American and other western posters when they say things that might offend posters of other nationalities. I think that is actually inconsistent with American social standards and more in line with the standards of other countries, but it’s not my board and so not my decision.

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I don't know, from time to time I read here posts about how USA is a shining city on a hill, home of the free, and how it superior to some other nations. Like in this thread.

lpt said:

I don't know, from time to time I read here posts about how USA is a shining city on a hill, home of the free, and how it superior to some other nations. Like in this thread.

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I'm not sure why that is a point of view requiring censorship, although I can see why people from countries in which challenging opinions are routinely censored would feel that way. The US certainly has its problems. In the guise of becoming "great again" we are unfortunately becoming more like some other nations every day. It's a shame because it was until recently a very false equivalency.

Some staff about freedom of speech, free elections and free media (lol there wasn't any free media in the us in history)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxg6Xs3jQek
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GpLAzAZXi2A
What's your favorite part? I prefer the thing where a cnn journo says to a "focus group" what they must say.
It is so disgusting when people trying to show their supremacy, but so fun when Americans pretend for some kind of supremacy, while in fact they are a way less developed than the average world, especially in terms of democracy and freedom. Cali votes cost times more than Alabama's, democratic as hell. What amendment do we all need to separate our own people by classes and sorts, wow.

crazydreamer said:

I’m sure there are Russian and Japanese forums in those countries, unless there are restrictions on social media of which I’m not aware. As far as I know, this site was created by Americans (or maybe Canadians?). I’m not sure what you are advocating exactly...that the people who created this site should give it over to Japanese posters because skating is more popular there? Seems like a strange idea to me.

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I am advocating nothing, by point was strictly rhetorical. I don't complain about this forum being run mostly by Americans, it's obvious why it is this way. I am writing this on an American computer, running OS and apps written exclusively in the US, this site was written exclusively in the US, everything we write here is stored on US servers, so no wonder Americans feel entitled to administer this place.
People all over the world complain about google's, twitter's and facebook's strong bias, so why didn't they create their own similar services with a similar outreach? Nothing stops them. There is some VK in Russia, I have no idea what it is, I think it's geoblocked and mostly in Russian language, so obviously it can't qualify as a global service. Probably Japan has similar services strictly for the Japanese public.
Why would Americans be obligated to create services to please the rest of the world? It would be completely fair if one morning the admin decided to remove all internationality from this forum and focus entirely on Michelle Kwan. And ban any references to any foreign skaters.

I was just asking a rhetorical question going nowhere, that's all....

Manitou said:

I'm not even talking about money here, but the number of opportunities for skaters, both active or retired. Just look at the skating shows in Russia, by Navka, Averbukh, Plushenko, probably others too, their coverage on their TV and packed arenas, numbers of clubs and competitions, social prestige and recognition.
What is Bradie going to do in the off-season when she is not competing? Or even now? SOI? It's a joke. TV shows? What shows?
I guess earning in rubles don't compare directly to earnings in dollars, but still - I see Radionova very active in shows and TV appearances, even though her career wasn't long or really significant. I'm not sure how it is really, but whatever Russian past name I can recall and google - they are all busy in figure skating activities. Shows, coaching, choreographing, federation careers, TV - there appears to be a market for them. What market is here in the US for all those past names? What is Bobek, Cohen and Meissner doing now in figure skating?

I'm even surprised that skating forums are still run by Americans on American servers. And the Russian and Japanese posters are moderated here by Americans according to American social standards. It should be totally opposite.

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Um, I’m sure this forum was started by North Americans (Americans or maybe Canadians). You think they should shut it down because skating is more popular in Russia?

If Russian or Japanese posters don’t like the moderation here I am pretty sure they can start their own forums and moderate them as they see fit.

As far as the skaters you mentioned, they are no longer involved in skating as far as I know. But numerous other skaters continue to be involved in skating through coaching, choreography, commentary, etc. There is not much in the way of ice shows but many skaters/former skaters have done Dancing with the Stars which I understand pays well. They also get other perks such as walking the red carpet at the Oscars and such. Adam Rippon has been everywhere, he also just wrote a book and is coaching Mariah. I would hope Bradie is preparing for US Nationals.