Why does ISU have age limits on junior/senior when USFSA does not?

Arwen17 · Dec 31, 2019

Why should they be at least age 15 to be in seniors?
They already compete in seniors in their national competition. Let them compete senior internationally if they think they’re good enough for that level.

If you don’t like the way the younger ones or their jumps vs artistry are being judged, that’s a judging problem, not an age problem.
Senior level should be “the best” skaters, regardless of whatever age they happen to peak at.
Some people seem to want senior to mean “adult”, when it should mean “the best” regardless of age.
If you only want to watch adults skate, then go watch Adult Nationals.

Just thinking about this recently with Raf and others wanting to raise the age limit to 18.

macy · Dec 31, 2019

i'm not sure if it applies in every country, but as far as i'm aware juniors can skate up a level at their own nationals, not just US skaters. we saw 3A do this last year at RusNats.

Arwen17 · Dec 31, 2019

macy said:
i'm not sure if it applies in every country, but as far as i'm aware juniors can skate up a level at their own nationals, not just US skaters. we saw 3A do this last year at RusNats.

That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying why does ISU have age limits on international Senior when national senior competitions do not?

gkelly · Dec 31, 2019

The levels are defined differently for international competition and for domestic US competition.

The names of the higher levels are the same, which leads to confusion.

US standard competition levels are defined by tests passed rather than by age (with the exception of the juvenile and intermediate competition levels which do have upper age limits).

Why does the US define the competition levels differently from the ISU? History -- the US and some other federations had been using the designations Junior, and Novice for much longer before the ISU started sanctioning or hosting international competitions at those levels.

More European federations, generally with smaller skating populations, divided their competition levels by age levels first and then perhaps subdivided by skill level. Not all had/have any sort of testing system at all. So the European approach had more of an influence on how the ISU developed its definitions for international championships and other international events.

Would it be less confusing if the US called its test-based domestic competition levels 8th test, 7th test, 6th test, etc.? Or Gold, Pre-Gold, Silver, etc.?

At US Nationals, the senior-level championship is called the "Championship" level event. That would probably still be true regardless of the names of the test levels and test-level competitions at qualifying and nonqualifying competitions.

Also, within the US, the term "skating up" refers to competing at a level higher than the highest test passed and has nothing to do with age. A 14-year-old who has passed her senior freeskating test is a senior lady by US definitions and would not be allowed to compete at any level lower than senior within the US.

A 20-year-old who has passed the junior freeskating test would compete as a junior within the US and that would not be considered skating down. At a nonqualifying competition they would be allowed to "skate up" to a senior competition, but skating up is not allowed at qualifying competitions (regionals or sectionals -- or Nationals, with the exception that as of this year the top 2 novice singles finishers at each sectionals are invited to compete junior at Nationals without having passed the junior test).

Maybe this signals that the US will make more changes in the future to qualifying competitions to align domestic levels with international levels. But they're not likely to take away the designation "senior" from the highest test level even for skaters who pass that test as pre-teens or from skaters who just barely squeak past the test and do not have the skill level to compete successfully in qualifying competitions.

Harriet · Dec 31, 2019

Because the ISU is an international organisation, not an offshoot of an American one, and therefore it sets its own standards. Lax as those are, they're still better for skaters than the US ones.

Arwen17 · Jan 1, 2020

gkelly said:
The levels are defined differently for international competition and for domestic US competition.

The names of the higher levels are the same, which leads to confusion.

US standard competition levels are defined by tests passed rather than by age (with the exception of the juvenile and intermediate competition levels which do have upper age limits).

Why does the US define the competition levels differently from the ISU? History -- the US and some other federations had been using the designations Junior, and Novice for much longer before the ISU started sanctioning or hosting international competitions at those levels.

More European federations, generally with smaller skating populations, divided their competition levels by age levels first and then perhaps subdivided by skill level. Not all had/have any sort of testing system at all. So the European approach had more of an influence on how the ISU developed its definitions for international championships and other international events.

Would it be less confusing if the US called its test-based domestic competition levels 8th test, 7th test, 6th test, etc.? Or Gold, Pre-Gold, Silver, etc.?

At US Nationals, the senior-level championship is called the "Championship" level event. That would probably still be true regardless of the names of the test levels and test-level competitions at qualifying and nonqualifying competitions.

Also, within the US, the term "skating up" refers to competing at a level higher than the highest test passed and has nothing to do with age. A 14-year-old who has passed her senior freeskating test is a senior lady by US definitions and would not be allowed to compete at any level lower than senior within the US.

A 20-year-old who has passed the junior freeskating test would compete as a junior within the US and that would not be considered skating down. At a nonqualifying competition they would be allowed to "skate up" to a senior competition, but skating up is not allowed at qualifying competitions (regionals or sectionals -- or Nationals, with the exception that as of this year the top 2 novice singles finishers at each sectionals are invited to compete junior at Nationals without having passed the junior test).

Maybe this signals that the US will make more changes in the future to qualifying competitions to align domestic levels with international levels. But they're not likely to take away the designation "senior" from the highest test level even for skaters who pass that test as pre-teens or from skaters who just barely squeak past the test and do not have the skill level to compete successfully in qualifying competitions.

This is a great history explanation and I appreciate it.
But it still doesn’t answer my core question. Regardless of what you call the levels, the “final” level at Nationals is open to any age as long as they have passed the test. Internationally, there’s an age requirement instead of just letting anyone who’s earned enough points to compete or whoever their country chooses to send. Why not get rid of ISU age limits and let points at events and country decide who should compete?
The age limits seem so arbitrary and pointless. It should be “the best” skaters that get to compete, regardless of age.

el henry · Jan 1, 2020

Arwen17 said:
This is a great history explanation and I appreciate it.
But it still doesn’t answer my core question. Regardless of what you call the levels, the “final” level at Nationals is open to any age as long as they have passed the test. Internationally, there’s an age requirement instead of just letting anyone who’s earned enough points to compete or whoever their country chooses to send. Why not get rid of ISU age limits and let points at events and country decide who should compete?
The age limits seem so arbitrary and pointless. It should be “the best” skaters that get to compete, regardless of age.

For me, at least, the initial query was unclear. Like @gkelly, it appeared to me you were asking a process oriented question: why is it different internationally than nationally? (And thanks @gkelly for the explanation:thumbsup

It appears rather that you are presenting an argument that the age for seniors should be lowered internationally, as it is in national competitions, and not a query as to why the process is different.

Personally, I take the complete opposite view, and believe that the age for seniors should be *raised* in national competitions, so that it is the same higher age for both national and international competitions. But that is my argument, and not a query.

gkelly · Jan 1, 2020

Harriet said:
Because the ISU is an international organisation, not an offshoot of an American one, and therefore it sets its own standards. Lax as those are, they're still better for skaters than the US ones.

Better for which skaters?

The US rules apply to lots of skaters including many who will never compete internationally but do compete against skaters who will.

el henry said:
Personally, I take the complete opposite view, and believe that the age for seniors should be *raised* in national competitions, so that it is the same higher age for both national and international competitions.

It would not be a matter of raising an existing age limit, but rather of instituting limits that never existed before.

There were at one time briefly upper age limits for competitive novices, as there still are for intermediates and novices, but for as long as I have been following skating and to the best of my knowledge for all? decades past, there have never been any lower age limits for junior or senior, or lower, competition.

If national-level competitions were to adopt ISU age limits, then how would those restrictions affect all the other standard-track qualifying and nonqualifying competitions affecting thousands of competitive skaters throughout the country.

Would the same age limits apply to regionals and sectionals?

What about the new National Qualifying Series?

What about short program + well-balanced freeskate events (separate or combined) at other nonqualifying competitions?

How many competitive skaters might end up with nowhere they would be allowed to compete domestically at all?

Or how many would be forced to compete at lower levels than their test level, assuming that would now be allowed, with the result that the level of competition in ladies' singles competitions at junior and novice levels would be that much more cutthroat and that much more discouraging for those who are making steady but not precocious progress?

DSQ · Jan 1, 2020

Well there didn’t used to be age limits for international competitions in figure skating, see Sonja H’s ten titles. They brought it in in 1996, does anyone remember why?

Arwen17 · Jan 1, 2020

DSQ said:
Well there didn’t used to be age limits for international competitions in figure skating, see Sonja H’s ten titles. They brought it in in 1996, does anyone remember why?

I have this really vague memory of someone saying Tara Lipinski will always be the youngest champion since they upped the age to 15, but I never remember any explanation why there was any age limit in the first place.

I can totally understand upper age limits on intermediate or novice (both nationally and internationally) to keep older kids from 'sandbagging' those levels, but I don't think there should be any limit on senior level (nationally or internationally). I would be willing to entertain an argument for junior level, AKA it would be weird to see a 30-year-old still competing at junior level (internationally), so perhaps we cap that level around age 19-20. But NO limitations for senior level. Senior level isn't "adult" level. Senior is "the best" level, even if that means a very young child prodigy.
And like I said before, change the judging if you think jumps vs artistry needs to be more balanced. Don't ban child prodigies from competing in Senior level by an age restriction.

If you want adults-only competition, then that should be the Adult Nationals and Adult international competitions. It shouldn't be synonymous with "Senior" level. Maybe that means changing the "senior" label to "elite" level so people stop associating the word "senior" with "adult".

Skill Level, not age, should reign supreme when determining divisions. (Though I'm not talking about forcing 15-year-olds or older adults to compete in pre-pre with 5-year-olds. So I think keeping the Excel test track and Adult track are excellent ideas.)
Age limits should only be used to keep 'sandbaggers' out of lower levels.

chuckm · Jan 1, 2020

Arwen17 said:
This is a great history explanation and I appreciate it.
But it still doesn’t answer my core question. Regardless of what you call the levels, the “final” level at Nationals is open to any age as long as they have passed the test. Internationally, there’s an age requirement instead of just letting anyone who’s earned enough points to compete or whoever their country chooses to send. Why not get rid of ISU age limits and let points at events and country decide who should compete?
The age limits seem so arbitrary and pointless. It should be “the best” skaters that get to compete, regardless of age.

So then you'd be fine with 8- and 9-year old skaters competing in the GP and at Worlds because they have all the triples (including 3a) and a quad or two?

Arwen17 · Jan 1, 2020

chuckm said:
So then you'd be fine with 8- and 9-year old skaters competing in the GP and at Worlds because they have all the triples (including 3a) and a quad or two?

Yes, if they have the points/ranking/their-country-sends-them, whatever the entry requirements are for a particular competition. Also, I already said that the judging is where jumps vs artistry needs to be taken care of. Not via an age limit. So the 9 year old may have the jumps, but what else do they have? Artistry? Transitions? They don’t win on jumps alone.

moonvine · Jan 1, 2020

Arwen17 said:
Yes, if they have the points/ranking/their-country-sends-them, whatever the entry requirements are for a particular competition. Also, I already said that the judging is where jumps vs artistry needs to be taken care of. Not via an age limit. So the 9 year old may have the jumps, but what else do they have? Artistry? Transitions? They don’t win on jumps alone.

The way things are headed winning on jumps alone is easy to imagine, if it isn’t happening already. If 8 and 9 year olds are competing in senior competitions, there is something terribly, terribly wrong.

Arwen17 · Jan 1, 2020

moonvine said:
The way things are headed winning on jumps alone is easy to imagine, if it isn’t happening already. If 8 and 9 year olds are competing in senior competitions, there is something terribly, terribly wrong.

My point is you shouldn’t need an age limit to keep them out of Senior. They’re kept out of Senior by the judging, aka no one would even attempt to put them in Senior because they wouldn’t be able to win on jumps alone. Senior level should be the best skaters based on judged skill, not arbitrary age limits of some kind. We already do this for Senior level nationally. Why isn’t this also true for international senior? Why did ISU put an age limit on it? A bandaid for poor judging standards?
I’m taking issue with the fact that “Senior” is being equated with “adult”, when it should simply mean “elite” or “the best”...... with all the talk of 15-year-old champions not being “real adults” or “real seniors”.

Mathman · Jan 1, 2020

I think that the basic reason why sports organizations have rules about minimum age is that children are not competent, legally or otherwise, to participate in decisions that can have such far-reaching impact on their development, their well-being, and their futures.

There are many reasons -- not just how many goals you can score -- that make us cautious about mixing adults with children on the playing field and in training programs.

Arwen17 · Jan 1, 2020

Mathman said:
I think that the basic reason why sports organizations have rules about minimum age is that children are not competent, legally or otherwise, to participate in decisions that can have such far-reaching impact on their development, their well-being, and their futures.

There are many reasons -- not just how many goals you can score -- that make us cautious about mixing adults with children on the playing field and in training programs.

So you’re saying the state or organization is playing the nanny instead of the parents with this rule? What about parents who decide to homeschool their children or decide they should go to some other school that is considered “alternative”? What if they are a precocious genius and it’s decided they will attend college classes early (aka sitting with adults in class and being around adults)? Are they considered “legally competent” because they’re so smart despite their young age? What about Amish children who only go to school up to the 8th grade and then are expected to leave and work the fields? All of these things are a parent’s decision and affect the child’s future. Who has the “right” to decide that child’s future while they are still “legally incompetent”?

If you have a precocious child in figure skating, Russia (and Alysa Liu) has shown us its perfectly possible to train them without “exposing them to adult competitors”. Alysa is competing in senior level nationally. There’s no reason she couldn’t do seniors internationally too.... if her parent and USFSA decided she was ready for it and could win at that level. Only the age limit on international seniors stops this. (And international juniors too originally in Alysa’s case. I think there should be an upper limit on juniors, but not a bottom limit.)

Why is ISU playing the nanny with age limits, but the national organizations, such as USFSA, are allowing any age to compete in seniors? Why is there an age limit for international, but not national?

el henry · Jan 1, 2020

Arwen17 said:
Whole Post

Do you really want to know the answers to those questions, or are they rhetorical? In my employed life, I enforced child labor laws, I enforced labor laws in Amish communities, and the reasons are long and varied and would take many screens

I am asking because the use of the term “nanny state” leads me to believe you may be philosophically opposed to those laws and regulations, so I don’t know that proffering the rationale would change your mind.

I don’t know every sport in the world, but *all* the ones I know have age limits and some have differing age limits according to jurisdictions. None that I know are strict libertarians, or have embraced that philosophy, so I’m not sure that “nanny state” arguments would be persuasive.

The actual age for the limits is the subject of at least a thread a week, it seems, and engenders much discussion :biggrin:

moonvine · Jan 1, 2020

el henry said:
Do you really want to know the answers to those questions, or are they rhetorical? In my employed life, I enforced child labor laws, I enforced labor laws in Amish communities, and the reasons are long and varied and would take many screens

I am asking because the use of the term “nanny state” leads me to believe you may be philosophically opposed to those laws and regulations, so I don’t know that proffering the rationale would change your mind.

I don’t know every sport in the world, but *all* the ones I know have age limits and some have differing age limits according to jurisdictions. None that I know are strict libertarians, or have embraced that philosophy, so I’m not sure that “nanny state” arguments would be persuasive.

The actual age for the limits is the subject of at least a thread a week, it seems, and engenders much discussion

There is a natural progression in team sports. One plays pee wee football, then middle school, then high school, then college, then NFL. No one goes from high school directly to NFL.

The funny thing about these threads is that there is one advocating raising age limits and one advocating they be abolished.

Maybe the ISU should set some age limits?

moonvine · Jan 1, 2020

Arwen17 said:
My point is you shouldn’t need an age limit to keep them out of Senior. They’re kept out of Senior by the judging, aka no one would even attempt to put them in Senior because they wouldn’t be able to win on jumps alone. Senior level should be the best skaters based on judged skill, not arbitrary age limits of some kind. We already do this for Senior level nationally. Why isn’t this also true for international senior? Why did ISU put an age limit on it? A bandaid for poor judging standards?
I’m taking issue with the fact that “Senior” is being equated with “adult”, when it should simply mean “elite” or “the best”...... with all the talk of 15-year-old champions not being “real adults” or “real seniors”.

And my point is that the way things are going, unless the ISU whose this up and fast, is that only jumps will matter and younger children who are smaller will be the “best” by virtue of being able to jump the most jumps with the highest numbers of revolutions.

Arwen17 · Jan 1, 2020

el henry said:
I don’t know every sport in the world, but *all* the ones I know have age limits and some have differing age limits according to jurisdictions.

USFSA and other national groups have no age limits on novice, junior, and senior levels. So you do know a sport that doesn’t have age limits. The only age limits they do have to is to prevent sandbaggers at the juvenile and intermediate levels.
Nobody seems to be taking issue with the USFSA’s lack of age limits, so why is it so important that ISU must have age limits?
I’m not against child labor laws. I’m against the lunacy of a system that shows having no age restrictions at the National Senior level is fine, but international seniors for some reason needs age limits.

moonvine said:
There is a natural progression in team sports. One plays pee wee football, then middle school, then high school, then college, then NFL. No one goes from high school directly to NFL.

Except singles skating isn’t a team sport. It’s not pairs and it’s not synchro skating. Also, we have a level system. That’s what the FS tests are for. That’s why athletes gather points at certain events on the international system to get invited or be eligible to other events. You don’t just waltz into your first Nationals or first GP assignment or first Olympics without taking tests and having points gathered etc. All I’m saying is remove the age restriction. They still have to pass all their tests and gather points at international events like everyone else.

Why does ISU have age limits on junior/senior when USFSA does not?

Arwen17

macy

Arwen17

gkelly

Harriet

Arwen17

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

gkelly

DSQ

Arwen17

chuckm

Arwen17

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie

Arwen17

Mathman

Arwen17

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie

Arwen17

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