Why does ISU have age limits on junior/senior when USFSA does not?

gkelly · Jan 1, 2020

Arwen17 said:
Nobody seems to be taking issue with the USFSA’s lack of age limits, so why is it so important that ISU must have age limits?

One possible reason:

Skaters competing internationally are representing their country and given a responsibility to deliver results for institutions that are counting on them. That can be considered labor.

Skaters competing nationally are responsible only to themselves. (Of course parents or generous donors who are funding the training may expect results in exchange, but theoretically the parents' primary interest is in the child's well-being rather than immediate return on investment.

Actual sponsorships in which a skater represents a corporation's interests in exchange for financial reimbursement are rare for younger teenagers. I think there have been some for skaters who did well enough at 13-14-15 to bring medals home to the US. And that would be considered labor. Does that include Alysa Liu, whose international opportunities are limited by the ISU's stricter age limits?

Happy Skates · Jan 1, 2020

Well, from my understanding going through the USFSA system, they treat is more like levels and not like age groups. Junior and senior come directly after novice, from intermediate, from juvenile, all the way down to pre-preliminary. Its more about the skills you can do than your age. "Junior" in the USFSa is just a level directly below senior and directly above novice, rather than an age category for those who are not yet senior age. If anyone follows US gymnastics, its kind of like if level 10 were senior elite and junior were level 9. The difference is about skill, not age. Thats how it is treated. And if you can pass the senior tests, you deserve to compete senior. Internationally, even though "junior" and "senior" have the same names, they are more meant to be used as age categories, with minimum and maximum ages (well maximum for junior). Not sure if that answers your question, but thats what I've observed to be the mentality behind it.

Tavi... · Jan 1, 2020

Arwen17 said:
USFSA and other national groups have no age limits on novice, junior, and senior levels. So you do know a sport that doesn’t have age limits. The only age limits they do have to is to prevent sandbaggers at the juvenile and intermediate levels.
Nobody seems to be taking issue with the USFSA’s lack of age limits, so why is it so important that ISU must have age limits?
I’m not against child labor laws. I’m against the lunacy of a system that shows having no age restrictions at the National Senior level is fine, but international seniors for some reason needs age limits.

Except singles skating isn’t a team sport. It’s not pairs and it’s not synchro skating. Also, we have a level system. That’s what the FS tests are for. That’s why athletes gather points at certain events on the international system to get invited or be eligible to other events. You don’t just waltz into your first Nationals or first GP assignment or first Olympics without taking tests and having points gathered etc. All I’m saying is remove the age restriction. They still have to pass all their tests and gather points at international events like everyone else.

I notice you left USFS juvenile out out of your list - was that because it has an age limit and doesn’t exactly support your point of view that age limits are per se wrong?

The answer to your question is that the ISU and USFS are two separate organizations. There is absolutely no reason why they should have exactly the same rules, any more than two states or two countries should have exactly the same laws.

DSQ · Jan 2, 2020

Was anyone here around in 1996 to remember why they brought in the age limit?

Ic3Rabbit · Jan 2, 2020

DSQ said:
Was anyone here around in 1996 to remember why they brought in the age limit?

Yes, but this should help you better than I can explain, as he goes into the history. I was too busy competing back then. :laugh:

http://www.globetrottingbyphiliphersh.com/home/2018/5/17/jpm14dlms0bkbxj2dj84iho899ewyy

Arwen17 · Jan 2, 2020

Tavi... said:
I notice you left USFS juvenile out out of your list - was that because it has an age limit and doesn’t exactly support your point of view that age limits are per se wrong?

The answer to your question is that the ISU and USFS are two separate organizations. There is absolutely no reason why they should have exactly the same rules, any more than two states or two countries should have exactly the same laws.

I mention juvenile in the comment you literally quoted from me. Those age limits prevent sandbagging from older skaters. They don’t prevent prodigies from competing in higher levels. Unless you’re talking about Open Juvenile, which is a non-qualifying event.

And your next comment is just “nahnahnah! That’s just the way the rules are!”
No critical thinking about why they’re that way, and if they should be that way.

Ic3Rabbit said:
Yes, but this should help you better than I can explain, as he goes into the history. I was too busy competing back then.

http://www.globetrottingbyphiliphersh.com/home/2018/5/17/jpm14dlms0bkbxj2dj84iho899ewyy

Just ran across that myself! Also this one is good too: http://www.globetrottingbyphiliphersh.com/home/2018/5/1/ah75a5ec5awldqrg1yby4ekmtjwvin

I of course agree more with Carol Jenkins in this article.

Arwen17 · Jan 2, 2020

gkelly said:
One possible reason:

Skaters competing internationally are representing their country and given a responsibility to deliver results for institutions that are counting on them. That can be considered labor.

Skaters competing nationally are responsible only to themselves. (Of course parents or generous donors who are funding the training may expect results in exchange, but theoretically the parents' primary interest is in the child's well-being rather than immediate return on investment.

Actual sponsorships in which a skater represents a corporation's interests in exchange for financial reimbursement are rare for younger teenagers. I think there have been some for skaters who did well enough at 13-14-15 to bring medals home to the US. And that would be considered labor. Does that include Alysa Liu, whose international opportunities are limited by the ISU's stricter age limits?

Interesting thoughts. We have child actors that get to work under special conditions. I don’t see why you wouldn’t do the same for a figure skating prodigy. As long as the contract doesn’t say: “thou shalt win gold medal or else!”

zounger · Jan 2, 2020

DSQ said:
Was anyone here around in 1996 to remember why they brought in the age limit?

To save artistry :biggrin:

Mathman · Jan 2, 2020

Arwen17 said:
So you’re saying the state or organization is playing the nanny instead of the parents with this rule? ... Who has the “right” to decide that child’s future while they are still “legally incompetent”?

Well, since you asked my opinion, I will give it.

Children essentially have only three legal rights. They have the right not to be abused. They have the right not to be neglected. And they have the right to an education. Society as a whole has an overarching duty to protect these rights. In all other matters the parents have free reign.

The devil is in the details, of course.

Edit: I mean, "free rein." (Also free reign.)

icetug · Jan 2, 2020

Arwen17 said:
The age limits seem so arbitrary and pointless. It should be “the best” skaters that get to compete, regardless of age.

Arwen17 said:
Don't ban child prodigies from competing in Senior level by an age restriction.

Arwen17 said:
Senior level should be “the best” skaters, regardless of whatever age they happen to peak at.

Are we watching the same sport discipline? Seriously you do think that peaking just "happens"?

ISU (and IOC) stated age limit for athletes for one reason: to protect their mental and physical health. How can it be pointless?

It's not enough to be a prodigy to win major competitions anymore. Alina Zagitova spent 14 hours a day on her training, six days a week and the same goes for her teammates. It needs hours and hours of exceptionally hard training that puts a growing body into a hazard and limits personal and educational development (and the children's right to recreation...). If somebody is a prodigy, they are great also as adults (like Dick Button who learned his most difficult jumps after he turned 18). There is no reason to train kids to the highest level just because they are skilled enough and not afraid of risk.

Arwen17 said:
So the 9 year old may have the jumps, but what else do they have? Artistry? Transitions? They don’t win on jumps alone.

OK. We obviously watch different competitions and witness different judging scheme :roll9:.

ladyjane · Jan 2, 2020

As El said, there seems to be a discussion about age limits every week, this the first time I've seen one that wishes to eliminate them. I don't. To be honest, much as I admire the jumping ability of little boys and girls, give me a mature skater any day. I'm not saying the age limit should be increased further (yet), but I do know once the senor field will be filled with little boys and girls and no adults in there, I'm out of the sport. Not that my departure would make much of a difference, but it seems obvious to me that if you want to watch kiddies, you watch novices, and juniors. Or perhaps the terminology should be changed? Like in adult skating where the minimum age is, I believe, 25? (not for synchro, but that's another discipline anyway). I don't like the idea of home schooling in any case. I am glad that's not allowed in our country. Although the schools do show some leeway to kids and teenagers who are active at a high level, though they have to prove it. so they can attend international competitions and such.

But so far, there still is a balance with at least mostly adult ice dancers and pairs, and even some grandpa's (whom I love) in the men's, as well as some great ladies in their 20s. I love seeing women perform, more so than girls. Even though I do like watching junior events as well - but in a different way.

Ded Moroz · Jan 2, 2020

History Question:

who knows where the time goes?

Tavi... · Jan 2, 2020

Arwen17 said:
I mention juvenile in the comment you literally quoted from me. Those age limits prevent sandbagging from older skaters. They don’t prevent prodigies from competing in higher levels. Unless you’re talking about Open Juvenile, which is a non-qualifying event.

And your next comment is just “nahnahnah! That’s just the way the rules are!”
No critical thinking about why they’re that way, and if they should be that way.

Just ran across that myself! Also this one is good too: http://www.globetrottingbyphiliphersh.com/home/2018/5/1/ah75a5ec5awldqrg1yby4ekmtjwvin

I of course agree more with Carol Jenkins in this article.

The question you actually ask in the title of your thread requires only the answer I gave you. To the extent the real reason you posted this thread is simply because you think age limits in figure skating are stupid, you’ve pretty clearly made up your mind what you think, and I’m not going to waste time engaging in a debate. To the extent you’re actually interested in why the ISU has age limits, you might want to read the Kestenbaum book mentioned in the article linked by Ic3Rabbit.

DSQ · Jan 2, 2020

Ic3Rabbit said:
Yes, but this should help you better than I can explain, as he goes into the history. I was too busy competing back then.

http://www.globetrottingbyphiliphersh.com/home/2018/5/17/jpm14dlms0bkbxj2dj84iho899ewyy

Thank you! Very interesting. I never knew Denna was seen as an up and comer so young.

Rissa · Jan 2, 2020

Tavi... said:
The question you actually ask in the title of your thread requires only the answer I gave you. To the extent the real reason you posted this thread is simply because you think age limits in figure skating are stupid,

Not to mention there's a 27- page thread above this one on the very topic of age limits. Suggestion to the OP: perhaps read/join that one?

https://goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?83170-Senior-Ladies-Need-To-Up-The-Age-Requirement

Tolstoj · Jan 2, 2020

I'm more on the opposite camp, 15 years old is not senior.

Yes you can look more mature, but still to me you become adult when you're legally considered adult (in most countries by the age of 18)

Either you remove those names "Seniors" and "Juniors" or you only allow real seniors to compete in seniors.

It's not a question of technical abilities, just the fact that calling a 15 years old senior sounds ridiculous to me.

vesperalvioletta · Jan 2, 2020

I realize that this isn't answering your question, but personally I think USFSA should implement age limits for Nationals. Alysa Liu becoming national champion at 13 last year was ridiculous to me, not because of her age or her ability, but because she couldn't even receive junior assignments until the following year. It just seemed pointless to me. I understand the argument that you're making OP, but I think age restrictions should stay in place.

Arwen17 · Jan 2, 2020

vesperalvioletta said:
I realize that this isn't answering your question, but personally I think USFSA should implement age limits for Nationals. Alysa Liu becoming national champion at 13 last year was ridiculous to me, not because of her age or her ability, but because she couldn't even receive junior assignments until the following year. It just seemed pointless to me. I understand the argument that you're making OP, but I think age restrictions should stay in place.

At least you get what I’m saying and address it. A lot of others keep saying age limits on international competitions is good, but then totally ignore the fact that national competitions have no age limits and are doing just fine.

moonvine · Jan 2, 2020

icetug said:
OK. We obviously watch different competitions and witness different judging scheme :roll9:.

Don’t worry, I’m watching the same comps you are.

el henry · Jan 2, 2020

Arwen17 said:
At least you get what I’m saying and address it. A lot of others keep saying age limits on international competitions is good, but then totally ignore the fact that national competitions have no age limits and are doing just fine.

I’m not sure I understand this.

I haven’t ignored anything :scratch2:

this fact is simply not important to me for whether the ISU should have age limits. I’m not ignoring it, I am deliberately not giving it any weight.

Why does ISU have age limits on junior/senior when USFSA does not?

gkelly

Happy Skates

Tavi...

DSQ

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️

Arwen17

Arwen17

zounger

Mathman

icetug

ladyjane

Ded Moroz

LADIES QUAD CLUB

Tavi...

DSQ

Rissa

Tolstoj

vesperalvioletta

Arwen17

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

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