Why does ISU have age limits on junior/senior when USFSA does not? | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Why does ISU have age limits on junior/senior when USFSA does not?

Arwen17

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Jan 20, 2017
I’m not sure I understand this.

I haven’t ignored anything:scratch2: this fact is simply not important to me for whether the ISU should have age limits. I’m not ignoring it, I am deliberately not giving it any weight.


So far only gkelly has offered an idea why ISU might think age limits are important while USFSA and other national events don't think it's important to have age limits on senior.
People claim and give reasons the ISU age limits are good, but the very counterargument is that USFSA hasn't fallen apart or "become uninteresting" to watch at the senior level and they didn't need to use age limits to "protect" senior level.


gkelly:
One possible reason:

Skaters competing internationally are representing their country and given a responsibility to deliver results for institutions that are counting on them. That can be considered labor.

Skaters competing nationally are responsible only to themselves. (Of course parents or generous donors who are funding the training may expect results in exchange, but theoretically the parents' primary interest is in the child's well-being rather than immediate return on investment.

Actual sponsorships in which a skater represents a corporation's interests in exchange for financial reimbursement are rare for younger teenagers. I think there have been some for skaters who did well enough at 13-14-15 to bring medals home to the US. And that would be considered labor. Does that include Alysa Liu, whose international opportunities are limited by the ISU's stricter age limits?


I already responded that I think it's a bad reason because we have child actors who work as children:

Interesting thoughts. We have child actors that get to work under special conditions. I don’t see why you wouldn’t do the same for a figure skating prodigy. As long as the contract doesn’t say: “thou shalt win gold medal or else!”

But at least it offers some rational explanation for why ISU is possibly different. The other reasons people give for why age limits are good are based on irrational fears that haven't proven true at the national level where there are no age limits. Other fears are caused by poor judging standards, and age limits are being used as a "band-aid" to poor judging quality, instead of removing the age limit and simply fixing the judging standards.
 

el henry

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whole post.

But this is moving the goalpost, to me.You are saying you don't like the reasons, fair enough.

But I stand by what I said. Any allegation that I am ignoring the "evidence" is untrue. I am not giving the "evidence" any weight. Someone can agree or disagree with that. But I am not ignoring it.

And I'm not engaging because I don't care if no other jurisdiction has age limits, or every other jurisdiction has age limits. That is not important to me. I'm not ignoring it, I'm discounting it.

I'm not a libertarian and I believe in age limits. :)
 

DSQ

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I’d say the only reasonable reason for age limits in fs and not in other sports is because it’s very rare to have children be successful in most other sports and these sports deal with prodigy's in an ad hoc way.

The sheer number of very young very talented skaters, more so since figures were taken out, means that the ISU has to make a policy. The question is why?

I actually agree with you. I think in sport the best should compete with the best and if that means children then so be it. However after thinking for a while I think we could say that it is to protect the health of the young skaters or to protect their emotional development but the real reason is more capitalist, it’s to protect the marketability of the sport.

Can we think on any sport that has mass appeal where the majority of athletes are very young? The only I can think are diving and gymnastics and both afaik have age limits for the same reason. To stop the sport being dominated by young people. Young people don’t spend £1000’s of pounds on tickets to competitions or on merch.
 
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Jun 21, 2003
To the extent you’re actually interested in why the ISU has age limits, you might want to read the Kestenbaum book mentioned in the article linked by Ic3Rabbit.

Great read. I highly recommend it to any figure skating fan. (Culture on Ice, Ellyn Kestnbaum). It is the figure skating analogue to the influential Little Girls in Pretty Boxes that caused similar debates about gymnastics.

It is a little bit dated now, sort of post-neo-femiminist or something, but still quite relevant. (The book is essentially Ms. Kestnbaum's PhD dissertation as a theater major at the University of Wisconsin, if memory serves.)
 
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Joined
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I already responded that I think it's a bad reason because we have child actors who work as children.

To me, the very fact that we have elaborate rules regarding child actors, etc., shows that we continue to struggle to find a balance between protecting children from exploitation (including exploitation by their parents) on the one hand, and on the other, allowing children and their parents to do what seems best for them without interference from restrictive rules.

We should not be surprised that different organizations -- for instance, the ISU and the USFSA -- each strike a different balance. There does not seem to be any "one size fits all" solution.

[A little off topic, but a wonderful example was set decades ago by comedic actor Andy Griffith, who found himself in the role of adult mentor to child actor Ron Howard. Griffith absolutely insisted that Howard's school activities and normal kid stuff took precedence over Mayberry. If Howard had a school baseball game that afternoon, the set was shut down until the next day.

Howard benefited all his life and enjoyed a fine adult career as actor, director and producer -- unlike a good many child actors whose lives fell apart in various ways once they weren't so precocious and cute.

(I do have to admit, though, that "Young Sheldon" is currently my favorite TV show. :) )]
 
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Arwen17

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Great read. I highly recommend it to any figure skating fan. (Culture on Ice, Ellyn Kestnbaum). It is the figure skating analogue to the influential Little Girls in Pretty Boxes that caused similar debates about gymnastics.

It is a little bit dated now, sort of post-neo-femiminist or something, but still quite relevant. (The book is essentially Ms. Kestnbaum's PhD dissertation as a theater major at the University of Wisconsin, if memory serves.)


I will look into both of those books since it sounds interesting. Even if I don't end up agreeing with any of it, it's still fascinating and always makes me less annoyed with rules I don't like when I understand at least some of the rationale behind them.



To me, the very fact that we have elaborate rules regarding child actors, etc., shows that we continue to struggle to find a balance between protecting children from exploitation (including exploitation by their parents) on the one hand, and on the other, allowing children and their parents to do what seems best for them without interference from restrictive rules.

We should not be surprised that different organizations -- for instance, the ISU and the USFSA -- each strike a different balance. There does not seem to be any "one size fits all" solution.

[A little off topic, but a wonderful example was set decades ago by comedic actor Andy Griffith, who found himself in the role of adult mentor to child actor Ron Howard. Griffith absolutely insisted that Howard's school activities and normal kid stuff took precedence over Mayberry. If Howard had a school baseball game that afternoon, the set was shut down until the next day.

Howard benefited all his life and enjoyed a fine adult career as actor, director and producer -- unlike a good many child actors whose lives fell apart in various ways once they weren't so precocious and cute.

(I do have to admit, though, that "Young Sheldon" is currently my favorite TV show. :) )]


I don't think you need to shut down the set to give child actors a good upbringing. Child actors usually run into trouble because of all the fame and fortune. The same reason why adult actors fall apart. The fame and fortune goes to their heads and they don't have anyone to remind them that they're human, rules apply to them, and that they're not a god or impervious to consequences. Notice how many British actors are much more level-headed compared to all the crap that goes on in Hollywood. Brits don't idolize their actors to the same extent as Americans do, in most cases. They're able to lead much more normal lives and keep a clear head. I think at least some Brits (who do well in American movies etc) refuse to move to Hollywood because they want to stay away from that cesspool. They recognize the value of being able to continue to live like a normal human being, instead of a king.

If we as a society would simply stop idolizing actors/singers/athletes so much, they wouldn't grow such a big head and get overwhelmed by the fame and fortune. I feel like every school should have a regular class on "Look, it's OK to admire someone, but REMEMBER they are human! They are not a god. You should not worship them, no matter how much you like them. Stop following every tabloid article or media content about them." Maybe we should just ban tabloids etc. But I know that wouldn't stop the media machine in general. There's a ton of money to be made and most people are ready and willing to throw their money at the media to get any and all content about their "god" or "hero".
I believe in capitalism, but this worship of consumerism and various types of "media gods", such as actors/singers/athletes is out of control. Most people need some kind of reality check. Don't treat them like gods, don't pay them like gods, and they won't act like gods. Even famous actors didn't use to make so. much. money, as they do nowadays. Their paychecks increase astronomically because of the fame and popularity of their name, not because of actual labor hours etc. Since it's now possible to be really, really famous, thanks to internet and global economy, it's now possible to be really, really, really rich from the fame of your name alone.
 
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Jun 21, 2003
IMHO the question in the title of this thread is stated backwards. The tail does not wag the dog. There is no reason why the ISU should modify it's rules just because the USFSA's rules are different.

If anything, it seems like the trend would be for a more uniform standard for all Olympic sports. The way the Olympic rules are now, there is no overall age limit, but rather each sport's international governing body decides for it's own sport.

For instance, in boxing you have to be 19. (I suppose they don't want children being beat to a bloody pulp by adults in the name of sport. ;) )

For winter sports, 15 seems to be the standard that most sports oversight bodies agree on. (for better or worse).

Here are the minimum ages for participating in the Olympics in different sports.

Alpine Skiing, 17
Biathlon, 22 (I guess they don't want children to shoot each other.)
Bobsled, 15
Cross country skiing, 15
Curling, no age limit
Figure skating, 15
Freestyle skiing, 15
Hockey, 18
Luge, 15
Nordic combined, 15
Short track, 15
Skeleton, 14. (Who else but a 14-year-old would have the guts to try it? :laugh: )
Ski jumping, 15
Snowboarding, 15
Speedskating, 16 (Age limits seem to be placed higher for endurance sports. In the Summer Games the minimum age for the Marathon is 20.)

I can sort of see the reasoning. Intensive training and practice for curling does not put unnatural stress on developing bodies the way running 26 miles does.
 
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gkelly

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Jul 26, 2003
Different sports make different kinds of demands on the participants, so there can be valid reasons why different sports would have different age limits.

Similarly, should age limits be different for different disciplines within figure skating? Specifically, if one wants to change rules for one discipline (ladies' singles always seems to be the one targeted), how does the reasoning for that change apply to men's singles or pairs or dance or synchro? Do the different demands of those disciplines, the different maturation patterns of adolescent girls and boys, or the size of the field internationally suggest that different limits would be appropriate?

Finally, if there are international age limits for ISU championships and ISU-sanctioned international competitions, should all national federations be expected to follow the same rules for their domestic competitions?

Or should each federation be free to set domestic rules based on their own needs, given, e.g., the total number of competitive skaters within the country, the total number or proportion of those skaters who are currently aiming to receive international assignments or are currently on track to do so in the future, the geographic size of the country/distance between major training hubs, whether this federation tends to produce many competitive skaters who peak young or to develop its top competitors over a longer or later timeline, etc.

What works for

-a small federation based in a single city with only a handful of skaters of very different ages capable of triple jumps at all

-may not work for a federation with a strong intensive federation-sponsored training program that produces dozens and dozens of preteen and young teen triple jumpers and that matches up promising pair and dance teams early on but that has little opportunity for later bloomers or more hobby-oriented figure skaters to train or compete at all

-nor for a federation with a wide range of self-funded skaters of all skill levels at all ages spread out across thousands of miles and dozens of rinks capable of producing elite skaters and teams as well as hundreds more where potential future competitors might get their start

-or a medium-sized federation with smaller total numbers and distances than the previous example, but similar ranges of skills and ages, and maybe more federation funding for their national team

Dividing up the domestic field in each of those four types of federations would make more sense to have very different rules from each other.

Some may divide their competitions by skill level first and then if necessary by age; others may divide by age first and then if necessary by skill level.

But internationally, the ISU needs to allow for appropriate international competitive opportunities for skaters for all its member federations. Does it make more sense for the international field to be divided by age first or by skill first?

And if by age, does it make sense for there to be overlaps in the age limits? E.g., currently 15- to 18-year-olds (or 20-year-olds for male pair and dance partners) have the option to compete in either junior or senior ISU competitions. And 13- and 14-year-olds can compete in either novice or junior.
 

louisa05

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I realize that this isn't answering your question, but personally I think USFSA should implement age limits for Nationals. Alysa Liu becoming national champion at 13 last year was ridiculous to me, not because of her age or her ability, but because she couldn't even receive junior assignments until the following year. It just seemed pointless to me. I understand the argument that you're making OP, but I think age restrictions should stay in place.

Not a popular opinion, but I completely agree with you. We saw what the weight of expectation can do to a young skater quite recently in this country, too. But no one seemed to think of that when crowning Alysa the next great U.S. champion and anointing her with the weight of expectation. I also think the massive public exposure is not good for someone so young. She has over 40,000 Instagram followers and I'm sure most are strangers and adults. Yes, that's partly on her parent for allowing it, but 40,000+ people wouldn't be following her if she had quietly competed in novice last year.
 

skylark

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To me, the question in the title of this thread is stated backwards. The tail does not wag the dog. There is no reason why the ISU should modify it's rules just because the USFSA's rules are different.

.

thank you. I read this thread just before I went to bed, and I woke up a few times with that thought ^^ poking at me.

It's the international governing body that sets standards for a sport.

In my opinion, it's a simple recognition that 13, 14, and 15-year-old pre-pubescent girls' bodies have an inherent advantage in jumping (an unfair one) over anyone with a woman's body. And jumping is where the points really stack up.

I wonder if it would have been different if the division had originally been called "Women's Skating" rather than "Ladies' Skating" ... which is somewhat ambiguous.
 
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Similarly, should age limits be different for different disciplines within figure skating?

I am reminded of the career of Marina Cherkasova and Sergei Sakhrai in pairs. They were partnered when she was 12 years old and 135 cm tall (4 foot 6 inches). He was 18 and more than a foot taller. He could toss her around like it was nothing. They were the first pair to do a quadruple twist. They medalled at Europeans that year (1978), won Europeans the next year and won Worlds the year after that.

However, by 1981, she had grown an extra 20 cm and ballooned up to an elephantine 45 kg (99 pounds). He could no longer lift her and their careers were over.
 
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I wonder if it would have been different if the division had originally been called "Women's Skating" rather than "Ladies' Skating" ... which is somewhat ambiguous.

Historically, of course, "ladies" was a class distinction. Figure skating was for the upper crust, and getting down in the muck and rubbing shoulders with commoners -- no, that would never do. Standards must be maintained.

That is what amateurism was all about. Lords and ladies participated in sporting adventures for the purity of their love of athletic endeavor. They would never lower themselves associate with "professionals" -- people who competed for the sake of grubbing for -- yuck-- money.

(I learned this from Kristy Yamaguchi's book, "Skating for Dummys." :))
 

skylark

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^^ I knew that "Ladies" vs. "Women" was a class distinction, but I've never understood why they weren't consistent enough to call it "Gentlemen's" rather than "Men's Skating."

You have just made me want to read Kristi's book.
 

moonvine

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I am reminded of the career of Marina Cherkasova and Sergei Sakhrai in pairs. They were partnered when she was 12 years old and 135 cm tall (4 foot 6 inches). He was 18 and more than a foot taller. He could toss her around like it was nothing. They were the first pair to do a quadruple twist. They medalled at Europeans that year (1978), won Europeans the next year and won Worlds the year after that.

However, by 1981, she had grown an extra 20 cm and ballooned up to an elephantine 45 kg (99 pounds). He could no longer lift her and their careers were over.

I’m so lucky I got to see Tai and Randy skate for 50 years. Well, not the whole time, but. I’m glad they were around that long.
 

moonvine

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I will look into both of those books since it sounds interesting. Even if I don't end up agreeing with any of it, it's still fascinating and always makes me less annoyed with rules I don't like when I understand at least some of the rationale behind them.






I don't think you need to shut down the set to give child actors a good upbringing. Child actors usually run into trouble because of all the fame and fortune. The same reason why adult actors fall apart. The fame and fortune goes to their heads and they don't have anyone to remind them that they're human, rules apply to them, and that they're not a god or impervious to consequences. Notice how many British actors are much more level-headed compared to all the crap that goes on in Hollywood. Brits don't idolize their actors to the same extent as Americans do, in most cases. They're able to lead much more normal lives and keep a clear head. I think at least some Brits (who do well in American movies etc) refuse to move to Hollywood because they want to stay away from that cesspool. They recognize the value of being able to continue to live like a normal human being, instead of a king.

If we as a society would simply stop idolizing actors/singers/athletes so much, they wouldn't grow such a big head and get overwhelmed by the fame and fortune. I feel like every school should have a regular class on "Look, it's OK to admire someone, but REMEMBER they are human! They are not a god. You should not worship them, no matter how much you like them. Stop following every tabloid article or media content about them." Maybe we should just ban tabloids etc. But I know that wouldn't stop the media machine in general. There's a ton of money to be made and most people are ready and willing to throw their money at the media to get any and all content about their "god" or "hero".
I believe in capitalism, but this worship of consumerism and various types of "media gods", such as actors/singers/athletes is out of control. Most people need some kind of reality check. Don't treat them like gods, don't pay them like gods, and they won't act like gods. Even famous actors didn't use to make so. much. money, as they do nowadays. Their paychecks increase astronomically because of the fame and popularity of their name, not because of actual labor hours etc. Since it's now possible to be really, really famous, thanks to internet and global economy, it's now possible to be really, really, really rich from the fame of your name alone.

Child actors are heavily regulated. If child athletes were as regulated, we would not have any 13 year old prodigies.
Minors aged nine years to sixteen years when school is in session may be at the place of employment for up to nine hours, the sum five hours work, three hours schooling and one hour of rest and recreation.

https://tophollywoodactingcoach.com/2012/08/work-hours-for-minors-in-the-entertainment-business-2/

As far as the rest of your point, it is human nature. Otherwise high school teachers, social workers, etc might be wealthy. I’ve heard it said for decades pro football players should not make so much money, but they have an exceptional talent, only a few people on earth can do the things they do, and it has come to light being repeatedly hit in the head might not be so great for ones brain.

I throw a good bit of money (portion of my income, not huge dollars) on Gracie, and I follow all media content about her. She isn’t my god but she is my hero. I would not even go so far as to say that collegiate athletes are “regular people.” They are people with a good amount of talent who have worked very hard and have self discipline. Not everyone can even learn a triple jump no matter how hard they may try or how dedicated they may be. People pay to watch other people do things that not many people can do.
 
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I’m so lucky I got to see Tai and Randy skate for 50 years. Well, not the whole time, but. I’m glad they were around that long.

That is a timely observation for this thread. Tai and Randy were the epitome of "two skating as one," as opposed to the "gorilla and flea" school of pairs skating where the girl is expected to be young and tiny. (Or at least tiny.) I think the ISU would be well within its mission if they undertook a serious discussion of what direction they want pairs skating to go in.

Men and ladies, too, of course.
 

karne

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The whole vibe of this thread is: "America does it this way, why does the international body do it another way? Obviously the American way is superior and everyone should do it the American way" which is just....
 

moonvine

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That is a timely observation for this thread. Tai and Randy were the epitome of "two skating as one," as opposed to the "gorilla and flea" school of pairs skating where the girl is expected to be young and tiny. (Or at least tiny.) I think the ISU would be well within its mission if they undertook a serious discussion of what direction they want pairs skating to go in.

Men and ladies, too, of course.

I follow Tai on Twitter. We post back and forth a lot. I can tell you she expresses great dismay at the direction the sport is going. And she may know something. She and Randy skated in shows in Vegas. They skated for the Queen. She also had an eating disorder and drug addiction - I won’t say *caused* but certainly “helped along” - by weekly weigh ins after she turned pro. And I would pay money to watch her stroke around the ice.

She’s working on her memoir. I hope it comes out soon...
 

Arwen17

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Child actors are heavily regulated. If child athletes were as regulated, we would not have any 13 year old prodigies.

https://tophollywoodactingcoach.com/2012/08/work-hours-for-minors-in-the-entertainment-business-2/

I wasn't applying that to their training hours. I was applying that to how much international competitions, media appearances etc they are allowed to do. Aka "paid work". Since gkelly is the one who suggested international competition could be viewed as a form of "labor" since its your country expecting you to bring home medals, in contrast to national competitions where you're not expected to bring the country anything, you're just competing like other amateur skaters.

Basically, they can train to their heart's content and receive sponsor money to help pay for training costs, but their families can't use these young athletes to "make money" until they're older.


The whole vibe of this thread is: "America does it this way, why does the international body do it another way? Obviously the American way is superior and everyone should do it the American way" which is just....


I'm using USFSA as an example since I'm most familiar with their system. But other countries don't have age limits on their nationals events either.


Bit more info thanks to wikipedia:

Many countries have no age requirements for domestic non-ISU competitions, thus, some skaters compete at the senior level nationally while not eligible for international competition.

The ISU has modified its age rules several times. Prior to the 1990s, 12 was the minimum age for senior international competitions.[57] New rules were introduced in 1996, requiring skaters to be at least 15 before July 1 of the preceding year in order to compete at the Olympics, Worlds, Europeans, or Four Continents.[54] The minimum age for all other senior internationals was 14 until July 2014, when it was raised to 15.

plus more:
https://web.archive.org/web/2008072....com/u/women/skating/jun98/loosemore61598.htm
 

snowflake

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I don’t think it’s unusual for national federations to have different limit rules than international federations.

I'm not american so I don't know US policies.

The Swedish policy for sending skiers to senior championships is that they have to finish their international junior career first. Like being 19 instead of the international 15 years limit.

What I know swimming still doesn’t have age restrictions for worlds and olympics though it’s been discussed. So for swimmers to participate at world/olympics it’s up to the national federations to decide if they want to send very young athletics. And then for their parents to accept it.

For European swimming championships a woman has to be 15 the year of the championships(men 17)

Seems like the new discipline, skateboard, has no age restrictions in Tokyo:

Sky has no limits....

If she qualifies, Brown will be 12 years and 12 days old when the Games begin in July, eclipsing the record set by swimmer Margery Hinton, who was 13 years and 43 days when she competed at the 1928 Olympics in Amsterdam.

Sky's philosophy:

“Sometimes girls are scared to do what boys are doing because they’re like, it’s a boy’s sport. But actually they can do anything that boys can do,” she said.

“Why I want to be in the Olympics is to inspire girls and hopefully when they see me, this little girl doing these crazy tricks, hopefully when they see me they’ll think, maybe I can do that too.”

IMHO
For winter sports, 15 seems to be the standard that most sports oversight bodies agree on. (for better or worse).

Here are the minimum ages for participating in the Olympics in different sports.

Alpine Skiing, 17
Biathlon, 22 (I guess they don't want children to shoot each other.)
Bobsled, 15
Cross country skiing, 15
Curling, no age limit
Figure skating, 15
Freestyle skiing, 15
Hockey, 18
Luge, 15
Nordic combined, 15
Short track, 15
Skeleton, 14. (Who else but a 14-year-old would have the guts to try it? :laugh: )
Ski jumping, 15
Snowboarding, 15
Speedskating, 16 (Age limits seem to be placed higher for endurance sports. In the Summer Games the minimum age for the Marathon is 20.)

I can sort of see the reasoning. Intensive training and practice for curling does not put unnatural stress on developing bodies the way running 26 miles does.

Where did you find this information? I've searched a bit about some sports but find it difficult to find fresh information. Do you have a similar table for summer sports? I've understand olympic age limits rules are the same as the international federations'.
 
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