Question on Toe Loop | Golden Skate

Question on Toe Loop

CarolPooh

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 13, 2019
I am a beginner in figure skating and my coach always says that my single toe loop does not have enough height. I have watched many videos on Youtube but it seems that there are generally two types of jumping technique when taking off.

(Assuming counter-clockwise)
First one: right leg is bent when first up in the air, like an "h" shape and it feels a bit like a waltz jump.

Second one: right leg is straight after the left toe hitting the ice, and the legs are kept straight when up in the air.

I am confused about if both are correct and just different techniques. Will the 1st one easily develop into toe axel? Will both types be Ok to for double toe loop later? My toe loop is like the first case and I don't understand the mechanics of the second one. In the second case, do you press the right leg into the ice to straighten it and gain height?

I would be grateful if someone could teach me about this. Thanks a lot.
 

Nimyue

On the Ice
Joined
May 15, 2018
I am a beginner in figure skating and my coach always says that my single toe loop does not have enough height. I have watched many videos on Youtube but it seems that there are generally two types of jumping technique when taking off.

(Assuming counter-clockwise)
First one: right leg is bent when first up in the air, like an "h" shape and it feels a bit like a waltz jump.

Second one: right leg is straight after the left toe hitting the ice, and the legs are kept straight when up in the air.

I am confused about if both are correct and just different techniques. Will the 1st one easily develop into toe axel? Will both types be Ok to for double toe loop later? My toe loop is like the first case and I don't understand the mechanics of the second one. In the second case, do you press the right leg into the ice to straighten it and gain height?

I would be grateful if someone could teach me about this. Thanks a lot.

The first one is incorrect. It's a toe-waltz and can get the jump down graded. You have to learn how to vault up, and honestly the toe-loop is weird.

When your coach tells you that you need more height, does he/she tell you how to do that? If your coach is merely telling you that you don't get height but not telling you how to achieve that... it might be time for a new coach. Also as a beginner, your jumps are going to be small while you're learning them - so again, I'm not impressed with your coach.
 

SmallAminal

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 26, 2016
When your coach tells you that you need more height, does he/she tell you how to do that? If your coach is merely telling you that you don't get height but not telling you how to achieve that... it might be time for a new coach. Also as a beginner, your jumps are going to be small while you're learning them - so again, I'm not impressed with your coach.

I'm going to second that. The coach shouldn't just give you vague feedback - "your jump needs more height" doesn't help you unless you get a lot of specific feedback from them to tell you *how* to jump higher. Given skates have edges and there are a lot of complicated mechanics involved in executing jumps, its not always an obvious fix for the skater without more technical feedback. Its hard to know without seeing how you jump. Also, if you are a beginner and especially if you are just learning the jump, its normal and expected that you may be a bit timid and jumping small at first, working towards adding more height and amplitude as you get more comfortable with the jump. I remember my son's first waltz jumps were little small hops and now he goes high and far when he does them during warm ups. Also in looking back at old videos, his first single jumps were small and they got bigger with more amplitude as his skills progressed and he cleaned up his technique.

You do need a coach that will give you helpful feedback, but also know that it may take time to develop your jumps....so be patient (and maybe find a new coach)
 

Charlotte 71

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 27, 2005
https://icoachskating.com/audrey-weisiger-developing-the-toe-loop/

Toe Loops Tips From Olympic Coach (Audrey Weisiger)

Audrey Weisiger discusses various aspects of the single, double and triple toe loop. Keep in mind that Audrey has taught at every level in skating and even with her extensive experience at the elite level, notice how much stress she places on correct grassroots or developmental teaching. As Audrey notes, correct technique on the single provides a solid foundation for doubles, triples, and even quads. Without correct technique on the single, a skater is often unable to proceed and accomplish the higher level jumps.

Audrey recommends performing toe loops from a variety of entrances. She explains some of the ones she uses and likes to challenge her skaters with. Audrey notes, “I have a lot of skaters that will say to me ‘Oh, I can’t do it that way.’ Well then I say ‘You don’t have a good toe loop take-off.'”

Audrey discusses the reach back and explains where the toe should go into the ice. So many toe loops have twisted, curly, and spinny take-offs. Audrey explains how to do it correctly, including how to place the toe on the ice to allow a more fluid pivot through the take-off.

Audrey offers the valuable concept of thinking of the skating foot (non-picking foot) being on a runway. It continues straight right up into the air. Audrey also notes that the skating foot comes off the heel of the blade and the leg remains straight, contrary to the common misconception of an h-position. This is one of the biggest errors currently being taught by learn-to-skate and developmental coaches throughout the United States. These coaches are teaching a lifting of the knee as the skater lifts up into the air, but in reality, no top skater lifts their knee. The leg remains straight as it comes through and after take-off.

Audrey also uses the concept she calls “the invisible three turn” to help skaters understand the take-off movement. By explaining it as a back outside three turn (half on the ice, half in the air) followed by a forward inside three turn in the air, all on a straight line, Audrey can minimize the tendency for skaters to spin around the toe pick.

As with all good coaches, Audrey also focuses on correct head placement/movement. Audrey uses the term “nose over toes” to illustrate what she wants. She also discusses the shoulder position at the moment of impact to allow absorption of the rotational forces. Audrey makes it clear the skater should not make impact with the shoulders in a “neutral” position.

Quiz question: What should the toe pick mark in the ice look like on a good toe loop? (Watch the video to find out.)

To more clearly see the the details of the jumps in the video above, here is a video of just the jumps which includes slow motion to allow you to stop the video during critical moments to see the positions that Audrey is talking about. Here are some things to look for:

1. The skating foot comes off the heel.
2. The skating leg is straight and the knee is not lifted at take-off or any time during the jump.
3. The free foot is flexed after leaving the ice and remains flexed during the fastest part of the rotation. This is particularly clear on the triple.
4. The head stays in “nose over toes” position and does not pre-rotate during the take-off movements(single through triples is same!)
5. The shoulders lag the overall rotation at the moment of impact allowing the skater to absorb rotational energy during the landing.
6. Also notice that angle of the skater’s body away from the jump at the moment of lift-off. Although Audrey did not mention it in her discussion above, this is critical for doubles and triples and it often surprising to coaches and skaters that do not watch video.
 

annajzdf

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 31, 2018
https://icoachskating.com/audrey-weisiger-developing-the-toe-loop/

Toe Loops Tips From Olympic Coach (Audrey Weisiger)

...

I thought you're not supposed to try learning about skating technique from videos, and to rely on a coach instead... :slink:
I distinctly remember posters on these boards being VERY adamant about that (of course not you necessarily), especially when it's a beginner skater. :drama:

(FWIW, I had watched Audrey's Toeloop video along with other, similar videos too, several years ago when I was just starting out, and found it very helpful and insightful. And so I already had a very good idea of what I'm supposed to do when my coach introduced the toeloop to us during lessons. And I mastered it a lot quicker than the rest of the group, because I could focus on the actual execution instead of having to first figure out which leg does what and where my arms go and 'what is this jump and what are its mechanics?')
 

hanyuufan5

✨**:。*
Medalist
Joined
May 19, 2018
I thought you're not supposed to try learning about skating technique from videos, and to rely on a coach instead... :slink:
I distinctly remember posters on these boards being VERY adamant about that (of course not you necessarily), especially when it's a beginner skater. :drama:

Supplementing what you already learned from a coach with videos can be okay depending on the video and the skater. Not for me, though. I suppose the lack of temptation makes it a mixed blessing that I'm utterly incapable of learning anything more complicated than a spread eagle by just watching other people. :laugh:
 

CarolPooh

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 13, 2019
Thanks for the replies. Your advice is really helpful for me to understand what and ideal toe loop is. I think my coach did teach me about lifting the knees so I was confused.

I will discuss more with my coach first =)
 

vlaurend

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 14, 2008
I am a beginner in figure skating and my coach always says that my single toe loop does not have enough height. I have watched many videos on Youtube but it seems that there are generally two types of jumping technique when taking off.

(Assuming counter-clockwise)
First one: right leg is bent when first up in the air, like an "h" shape and it feels a bit like a waltz jump.

Second one: right leg is straight after the left toe hitting the ice, and the legs are kept straight when up in the air.

I am confused about if both are correct and just different techniques. Will the 1st one easily develop into toe axel? Will both types be Ok to for double toe loop later? My toe loop is like the first case and I don't understand the mechanics of the second one. In the second case, do you press the right leg into the ice to straighten it and gain height?

I would be grateful if someone could teach me about this. Thanks a lot.

Both air positions are correct, but I find that if I try to keep my right leg straight and extended in the air, it tends to make me pivot and pre-rotate on the takeoff toe, which results in a downgrade. The right knee bending and lifting up on takeoff is more compatible with a correct backward toeloop takeoff because it's naturally what happens when you draw all the way back and lift up instead of pivoting forward on the toepick. Can you envision that?
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
Both air positions are correct, but I find that if I try to keep my right leg straight and extended in the air, it tends to make me pivot and pre-rotate on the takeoff toe, which results in a downgrade. The right knee bending and lifting up on takeoff is more compatible with a correct backward toeloop takeoff because it's naturally what happens when you draw all the way back and lift up instead of pivoting forward on the toepick. Can you envision that?

The opposite is the case.
If you bend knee into "h" position then it will turn into toe-axel.
Take a look at Plushenkos toe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ku8MCRbx1BU
Hanyu's toe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ0dPX6ppwY&t=0s
Javier toe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8tCfZgMaKI
Kolyada toe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNaelITIJro
Nathan chen toe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVRPdYnER-0
Boyang toe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl044MHvkDc
Keegan messing toe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbcpK4sdQb0
Brian Joubert toe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3pNJzU_lHA
Kurt Browning toe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFuqfagJDjQ&t=40s
Alexei Yagudin toe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOU2T0P1cHY
Alexei Urmanov toe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_o5Wv8-004&t=60s

Find me one good quality toe with the h position (h position leads to toe axel).

Jumps which work with h position: axel (oc), salchow, loop, flip, lutz. Toeloop is odd in this regard, but h position won't work with toeloop if you want a stable jump.
 

cl2

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
The opposite is the case.
If you bend knee into "h" position then it will turn into toe-axel.
Take a look at Plushenkos toe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ku8MCRbx1BU
Hanyu's toe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ0dPX6ppwY&t=0s
Javier toe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8tCfZgMaKI
Kolyada toe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNaelITIJro
Nathan chen toe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVRPdYnER-0
Boyang toe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl044MHvkDc
Keegan messing toe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbcpK4sdQb0
Brian Joubert toe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3pNJzU_lHA
Kurt Browning toe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFuqfagJDjQ&t=40s
Alexei Yagudin toe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOU2T0P1cHY
Alexei Urmanov toe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_o5Wv8-004&t=60s

Find me one good quality toe with the h position (h position leads to toe axel).

Jumps which work with h position: axel (oc), salchow, loop, flip, lutz. Toeloop is odd in this regard, but h position won't work with toeloop if you want a stable jump.

Evgenia Medvedeva had a "h" toe loop during the time she was still with Eteri.
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
Evgenia Medvedeva had a "h" toe loop during the time she was still with Eteri.

That is false. Even though Medvedeva isnt exactly the shining star of technique (its bad), she still goes through straight. She has never done solo toe in competition even back in start of junior, but she always goes through straight on her toe combinations.
 
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