Minimum TES raised for Ladies for 2020 Worlds | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Minimum TES raised for Ladies for 2020 Worlds

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
I feel very sorry for the individual athletes affected:sad21:

But it doesn’t matter if affects one skater or 21 skaters. A decision contrary to every principle of sport, changing the rules in the middle of the season, is wrong. No one “benefits” from a decision contrary to the principles of sport, and *all* skaters lose.
 

[email protected]

Medalist
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Dasa & some of the other ladies qualified under the old rules. Now it's a IF, with rule changes in January, 2 short months before WC.
Take note that for smaller federations, qualification to WC is one of criteria for funding. Dont qualify for Worlds, lose funding.

There are also cost considerations for additional competitions that to be entered & a host of other stuff.

If the tables are turned & its a Russian athlete who's effected, I'm pretty sure Russia will complain, VERY loudly(which is what normally happens). If the sports association doesnt want to, the Russian government will pressure them to.

As far as I remember Russia recently complained only once after the outrageous judging in France. I am not sure if Russian government had anything to do with it. So far Russian officials failed in protecting Russian athletes in general and skaters in particular. Ivan Bukin and Ksenia Stolbova is a good example.

All the affected skaters have Europeans and 4CC to get the required minimumfor the Worlds.
 

[email protected]

Medalist
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
I feel very sorry for the individual athletes affected:sad21:

But it doesn’t matter if affects one skater or 21 skaters. A decision contrary to every principle of sport, changing the rules in the middle of the season, is wrong. No one “benefits” from a decision contrary to the principles of sport, and *all* skaters lose.

I wonder what you will write if they change the rules in the middle of the season and won't let 3A compete in the worlds because of the WADA busines which has nothing to with them. I am sure that there will be people who will "benefit" from such a decision.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
I wonder what you will write if they change the rules in the middle of the season and won't let 3A compete in the worlds because of the WADA busines which has nothing to with them. I am sure that there will be people who will "benefit" from such a decision.

???

I am not seeing how this relates to changing the rules for TES qualification on skaters in the middle of the season.:confused:

This is a situation that I would find analogous in the drug testing arena: If a fed, or WADA, added drugs to the list that were not there at the beginning of the season, and tested for them in the middle of the season, I would write the same thing. You set the rules, you tell the skaters the rules, and then they compete.

Changing the rules in the middle of season harms all skaters. For any purpose.
 

LenaRadiFan

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
I wonder what you will write if they change the rules in the middle of the season and won't let 3A compete in the worlds because of the WADA busines which has nothing to with them. I am sure that there will be people who will "benefit" from such a decision.
That would be just as unfair, obviously. To me, it is in good sporting manner to announce drastic changes(be it TES increasement or WADA business or anything else like that) at the beginning of the seasons so that athletes and coaches alike can change their training approach and work their hardest to get their desired results.

This is taken away when something like that is announced too short term, because even if maybe sometimes the 3A make it seem very easy, technical increasements are difficult and take time and that should be respected. Not everyone can just land all 3-3s to increase their TES in a matter of weeks. I am not against the raising of TES, just that it should not be announced to months before worlds and so throwing off some skaters because it is not like they have to increase their TES in two months but an even shorter time with very few opportunities to actually get it at competition, so please let's all have some empathy with these skaters, shall we?
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
Many people here keep saying that. There are 3-4 skaters affected. Aren't they supposed to compete at the Europeans or 4CC? If yes, what another event, travel, lodging, visas, etc. are you talking about? These are no less important events to them than the worlds so that they should be in their top shape there. If they cannot get the minimum, then, well.

Liza and Zhenya are affected by the 3 only rule. Dasa GRM is affected by the raise of the TES minimum which is a legitimate move by ISU. Putting legitimacy and rules aside we are in the morality and fairness realm. In this realm I think that what happens with Zhenya and Liza is less fair than what happens with Dasa.

The 3-only rule isn't intended to be fair to individual skaters. It is intended to be fair to all of the countries who send skaters, by limiting any country's ability to dominate. I can't imagine anyone would think it would be a good idea to allow countries to send as many skaters as they want. So if not three, the limit would have to be something else. The manageability of the event also plays into determining the limit. Skaters in the previous season earn the spots for their country, not themselves or any particular skater. There is no unfairness to Russia in only having 3 spots.
 

Skatefan15

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 8, 2015
It’s so stupid to raise it halfway through the season. If the ISU wants skating to grow in smaller countries, don’t cut those skaters out! Makes no sense:scratch2:
 

Supernovaimplosion

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Many people here keep saying that. There are 3-4 skaters affected. Aren't they supposed to compete at the Europeans or 4CC? If yes, what another event, travel, lodging, visas, etc. are you talking about? These are no less important events to them than the worlds so that they should be in their top shape there. If they cannot get the minimum, then, well.

Liza and Zhenya are affected by the 3 only rule. Dasa GRM is affected by the raise of the TES minimum which is a legitimate move by ISU. Putting legitimacy and rules aside we are in the morality and fairness realm. In this realm I think that what happens with Zhenya and Liza is less fair than what happens with Dasa.
The three person rule might be unfair but its not the same thing as what's happening here.
The skaters have known about the three person rule the entire season, so they can plan their goals according.
But imagine if, right now, the ISU said, "Actually, we've decided now that only 2 people per country can go to worlds"
It's unfair to change goalposts in the middle if the season.
 

Coryocris

Praise our Little Bear
On the Ice
Joined
Mar 25, 2018
Country
Germany
Liza and Zhenya are affected by the 3 only rule. Dasa GRM is affected by the raise of the TES minimum which is a legitimate move by ISU. Putting legitimacy and rules aside we are in the morality and fairness realm. In this realm I think that what happens with Zhenya and Liza is less fair than what happens with Dasa.

Oh please, stop dragging Liza and Zhenya here, it is not the same issue that is happening here. The 3 per country rule is known, fair to the spirit of World Championships and it hasn't changed midseason to be against the skaters of any country. Don't use their names for pity points. TES increasing has never happened midseason to prevent people to compete, but only in their favor. Raise the TES for World 2021, not two months before the final competition.
 

Ice Dance

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
So out of curiosity, what would people prefer the ISU do? They previously made it clear that they reserved the right to change the minimum scores; but if we agree that such a change is unfair to athletes mid-season despite the heads-up, then what should they do differently?

Let's assume that an efficiently run event is one of their priorities. That no more than _____ number of athletes will be able to compete. The ISU cannot predict at the start of the season how many athletes will earn minimum scores. What should they do rather than adjust the minimum score mid-season? State from the beginning of the season that a maximum of ____ number of athletes will qualify? I mean, would that be better for the bubble athletes? To wait all season to see if their scores will hold up?
 

Coryocris

Praise our Little Bear
On the Ice
Joined
Mar 25, 2018
Country
Germany
So out of curiosity, what would people prefer the ISU do? They previously made it clear that they reserved the right to change the minimum scores; but if we agree that such a change is unfair to athletes mid-season despite the heads-up, then what should they do differently?

Let's assume that an efficiently run event is one of their priorities. That no more than _____ number of athletes will be able to compete. The ISU cannot predict at the start of the season how many athletes will earn minimum scores. What should they do rather than adjust the minimum score mid-season? State from the beginning of the season that a maximum of ____ number of athletes will qualify? I mean, would that be better for the bubble athletes? To wait all season to see if their scores will hold up?

If they really want to get rid of skaters without ruining their chances posting a notice in December or end November would be ideal.
 

ruga

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 20, 2017
So out of curiosity, what would people prefer the ISU do? They previously made it clear that they reserved the right to change the minimum scores; but if we agree that such a change is unfair to athletes mid-season despite the heads-up, then what should they do differently?

Let's assume that an efficiently run event is one of their priorities. That no more than _____ number of athletes will be able to compete. The ISU cannot predict at the start of the season how many athletes will earn minimum scores. What should they do rather than adjust the minimum score mid-season? State from the beginning of the season that a maximum of ____ number of athletes will qualify? I mean, would that be better for the bubble athletes? To wait all season to see if their scores will hold up?

They could just say that a maximum of X eligible skaters qualify and state the criteria for cut-off (SB, technical score, WS or whatever). There would be less disappointment in general and the number of skaters could be controlled. There is not much of a difference whether 42 or 37 skaters compete - the amount of warm up groups stays the same, so it makes no sense that ISU did it just now.

This situation is not comparable with country quota rule (discussions whether it's fair or not should go to another thread). All skaters are aware that one must meet their country's criteria to get promised 1, 2 or 3 spots and they can plan their programs and elements having this in mind. A better example would be if ISU suddenly decided that 3 skaters per country is too much and reduced this quota to two skaters. Or if they decided to change age requirements just now. Wouldn't it be disappointing for those who were certain that they're going to Worlds? The problem is not about the points, but about lost opportunities for skaters to plan their competition schedule with not so much time left.
 

Lzbee

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 25, 2016
So out of curiosity, what would people prefer the ISU do? They previously made it clear that they reserved the right to change the minimum scores; but if we agree that such a change is unfair to athletes mid-season despite the heads-up, then what should they do differently?

Let's assume that an efficiently run event is one of their priorities. That no more than _____ number of athletes will be able to compete. The ISU cannot predict at the start of the season how many athletes will earn minimum scores. What should they do rather than adjust the minimum score mid-season? State from the beginning of the season that a maximum of ____ number of athletes will qualify? I mean, would that be better for the bubble athletes? To wait all season to see if their scores will hold up?

Honestly? Yes. It's much more transparent than this. I mean, this is essentially what they're doing by raising the tes minimums right now except that people didn't know about it at the start of the season. Using the 2019 world champions score is just an excuse because the 2019 world champion score was already known for 4+ months by the start of the season.
 

DenissVFan

Medalist
Joined
Oct 20, 2017
What are they going to do if there end up more than 36 skaters qualified though? There are still some skaters who can get the scores. Would they further increase the minimum scores if there were 40 eligible skaters for example?
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
So out of curiosity, what would people prefer the ISU do? They previously made it clear that they reserved the right to change the minimum scores; but if we agree that such a change is unfair to athletes mid-season despite the heads-up, then what should they do differently?

Let's assume that an efficiently run event is one of their priorities. That no more than _____ number of athletes will be able to compete. The ISU cannot predict at the start of the season how many athletes will earn minimum scores. What should they do rather than adjust the minimum score mid-season? State from the beginning of the season that a maximum of ____ number of athletes will qualify? I mean, would that be better for the bubble athletes? To wait all season to see if their scores will hold up?

This doesn't necessarily solve any problem, as all of the bubble athletes could still qualify. It's just going to be a lot more inconvenient for them to do so.

If the ISU wants to have exactly x number of athletes at an event, the requirement should be based on that (i.e. top x scores for the season). If they're going to require a certain score, don't change the goalpost when 80% of the competitions you can earn a score at have passed.

The irony in all this, as someone alluded to earlier, is that the ISU promotes growth of the sport with rules like the three per country rule, yet this midseason change hurts athletes from these small federations.
 

eaglehelang

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 15, 2017
As far as I remember Russia recently complained only once after the outrageous judging in France. I am not sure if Russian government had anything to do with it. So far Russian officials failed in protecting Russian athletes in general and skaters in particular. Ivan Bukin and Ksenia Stolbova is a good example.

All the affected skaters have Europeans and 4CC to get the required minimumfor the Worlds.
That's itself is an example of Russia using political muscle as I agree with some of the calls. The judging was more strict but warranted. Others were effected too but they are not powerhouse country.

I am refering Russia's response if it's other sports, in same scenario. If it's a Russian athlete who does not get to qualify for Worlds or 2020 Olympics due to rule changes a few short months before the cut off date. There would most certainly be a huge uproar.

If the rules are say rankings 150 above qualifies for OG, then suddenly the world body changes it to rankings 130 above. Just 2 to 3 months before the cut off date. I can think of a few of Russian athletes who wouldnt qualify to 2020 OG that way.

Before you use the example of Zagitova & Evgenia again, there are athletes from my country who are top 20 rankings who would not qualify due to 2 or 3 per country rules. But Russian athlete in top 100 would. It's the same 'unfair' rules for different sports for all countries.
As already discussed in different threads many times, take it up with the IOC. And make it the same across the board for all sports, Summer & Winter.

The banning due to doping issues is unfortunate but it's Russia's fault in the 1st place in terms of 1) consistent failed doping tests. 2) Russia government's mishandling of the issue.

Most importantly, it shows yet again ISU's incompetence as a world body.
Oh yeah, someone posted that an effected skater from Turkey is not participating in Europeans. Now she has to scramble to find another competition to get the minimums.
 
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