another Rafael Arutunian interview

lariko · Jan 14, 2020

el henry said:
Long and healthy is not at all counterintutive if the only way to succeed in a sport is to skate for three years, and then quit at 17 or 18 because you can’t take it any more, I don’t *ever* want to watch that sport. Luckily, since I love the men, I don’t need to.

And with many skaters skating long healthy and happy careers, we see so many more skaters grow, challenge, develop rivalries, develop new rivalries: everything that sport should be, IMO:agree:

It would be a boring skating world if we all liked the same thing. But it doesn’t mean we denigrate those who like something different. I say if someone wants to see revolutions in the air, a million different movements (and I am trying to be neutral in my terms, that’s just what I call them), whatever floats their boat, good for them.:thumbsup: I like something different, good for me:thumbsup:

How could any new rivalries develop if it’s all the same small pool of skaters for many years? If barrier to entry into competitive events is too low, it’s unfair to those not selected of equal capabilities. If the barrier is as high as it is now, it is taxing to the point when maintaining competitive shape for a number of years borders on health issues.

Males develop slower and retain lean mass better over years, because they don’t have hormonal reproductive pressure. They perform better when lean, handle fasting better.

Pushing for delay of entry into the competition, and insisting on longer stay in the sport for women will result in selection leaning towards either the ladies predisposed naturally to higher levels of male hormones or the ones that would jeopardize their hormonal balance by the simplest method possible, food deprivation. It’s by far more dangers imo, than letting the vibrant teens compete. They had years of training.

ladyjane · Jan 14, 2020

lariko said:
How could any new rivalries develop if it’s all the same small pool of skaters for many years?

That's just it: now we see Hanyu and Chen, we used to see Fernandez and Hanyu. There's more of a flow across the years with new skaters coming up and older skaters fighting back. In men you see that all the time: new rivalries emerging, and continually skaters to root for during longer periods of time, with the emphasis on longer. I for one just love it that skaters like Brezina are still competing, and I've so much enjoyed it that Voronov kept on going for such a long while. Maybe he'll still continue, who knows? Not the same small pool of skaters for many years at all . But there are skaters of whom you can become a fan (dare I use the word) and follow for a long time. Joubert went to 4 olympics after all, although the Olympics were his nemesis. Just like they were Kurt Browning's, although in a different way. But longevity creates legends of the sport, whether they are called Yuzo, Javier or Carolina.

But, that's just my opinion. I like to follow my heroes through the years, be a fan if you like of certain skaters. Usually not of a certain country. Although, Russian pairs....but even in pairs I wish for longevity. I don't respect ladies like Aljona, Deanna and Zoe for nothing!

el henry · Jan 14, 2020

lariko said:
How could any new rivalries develop if it’s all the same small pool of skaters for many years? If barrier to entry into competitive events is too low, it’s unfair to those not selected of equal capabilities. If the barrier is as high as it is now, it is taxing to the point when maintaining competitive shape for a number of years borders on health issues. Males develop slower and retain lean mass better over years, because they don’t have hormonal reproductive pressure.

I am truly not understanding the premise? I will use US men, where I have the most knowledge.

The fact that Nathan Chen is still skating doesn’t mean there aren’t new rivalries. All sorts of new skaters come up the pipeline. Now we have Camden, Tomoki, Alex K., and Andrew T. Thank heavens all of them stayed junior up until the last year or next to last year of eligibility, they all took the time to develop their own styles, and I look forward to them skating for many years to come. /(although Nathan is a great example that you can skate *and* prepare for your life outside skating at the same time. He may not be my fav skater, but I have nothing but enormous respect for his life choices :thumbsup:

But Jason Brown and Sean Rabbitt have stayed in the game and I get to see their excellent skating. And when Ilia Malinin and the current juniors move up, I’ll get to see them too. Now some of the guys in their 20s and later might choose to retire, they might not, up to them, and they compete with the new guys, and may the best skater win. It’s wonderful

Now, I fully admit, I may be an odd one in that medals are not everything to me. In fact, they mean very little in my assessment of whether I consider a skater worth following. When you came up as I did adoring Toller Cranston, international medals were not in the mix. Yet he was one of the giants in the sport.

It’s just different strokes for different folks.

lariko · Jan 14, 2020

ladyjane said:
That's just it: now we see Hanyu and Chen, we used to see Fernandez and Hanyu. There's more of a flow across the years with new skaters coming up and older skaters fighting back. In men you see that all the time: new rivalries emerging, and continually skaters to root for during longer periods of time, with the emphasis on longer. I for one just love it that skaters like Brezina are still competing, and I've so much enjoyed it that Voronov kept on going for such a long while. Maybe he'll still continue, who knows? Not the same small pool of skaters for many years at all . But there are skaters of whom you can become a fan (dare I use the word) and follow for a long time. Joubert went to 4 olympics after all, although the Olympics were his nemesis. Just like they were Kurt Browning's, although in a different way. But longevity creates legends of the sport, whether they are called Yuzo, Javier or Carolina.

But, that's just my opinion. I like to follow my heroes through the years, be a fan if you like of certain skaters. Usually not of a certain country. Although, Russian pairs....but even in pairs I wish for longevity. I don't resprect ladies like Aljona, Deanna and Zoe for nothing!

I prefer it when I don’t know who will win in advance. I would love it if the top ten ranking all had a chance to be on the podium, and not just in the running for bronze. I want to see new faces, new ideas, new daring rewarded, not put into a queue.

ladyjane · Jan 14, 2020

lariko said:
I prefer it when I don’t know who will win in advance. I would love it if the top ten ranking all had a chance to be on the podium, and not just in the running for bronze. I want to see new faces, new ideas, new daring rewarded, not put into a queue.

Let's agree to disagree then (never say I can't be a diplomat at times). I don't have to know who wins in advance either, but I like rooting for certain skaters during a period of time. I'm already looking forward to Worlds where I hope (and expect) this year there's really going to be a show down between Yuzu and Nathan, and perhaps Shoma running away with the title.

lariko · Jan 14, 2020

el henry said:
I am truly not understanding the premise? I will use US men, where I have the most knowledge.

The fact that Nathan Chen is still skating doesn’t mean there aren’t new rivalries. All sorts of new skaters come up the pipeline. Now we have Camden, Tomoki, Alex K., and Andrew T. Thank heavens all of them stayed junior up until the last year or next to last year of eligibility, they all took the time to develop their own styles, and I look forward to them skating for many years to come. /(although Nathan is a great example that you can skate *and* prepare for your life outside skating at the same time. He may not be my fav skater, but I have nothing but enormous respect for his life choices :thumbsup:

But Jason Brown and Sean Rabbitt have stayed in the game and I get to see their excellent skating. And when Ilia Malinin and the current juniors move up, I’ll get to see them too. Now some of the guys in their 20s and later might choose to retire, they might not, up to them, and they compete with the new guys, and may the best skater win. It’s wonderful

Now, I fully admit, I may be an odd one in that medals are not everything to me. In fact, they mean very little in my assessment of whether I consider a skater worth following. When you came up as I did adoring Toller Cranston, international medals were not in the mix. Yet he was one of the giants in the sport.

It’s just different strokes for different folks.

I have an inkling that winning matters to them and impacts their wellbeing and potential for earnings—unless, of course, you envision the parents footing the bills for those prolonged careers. Most skaters who remain in the long term seems to have been on the podium at the start of their career as rather young people. Moving the goal post for today’s teens would seem unfair.

el henry · Jan 14, 2020

lariko said:
I prefer it when I don’t know who will win in advance. I would love it if the top ten ranking all had a chance to be on the podium, and not just in the running for bronze. I want to see new faces, new ideas, new daring rewarded, not put into a queue.

But I’m still not getting this. Trust me, any one men’s comp, no one knows who will win. And any one men’s comp, someone can come out of nowhere to win. even someone who’s been skating senior for ten years.:agree: why I love the men.

People may prefer to see younger skaters, fine. I don’t think it would be the end of the world to raise the age limit a year, fine. But the last thing the men are is the same old, same old :biggrin:

As I said, shiny gold has never ever been the “be all and end all” for me, so there is that

lariko · Jan 14, 2020

el henry said:
But I’m still not getting this. Trust me, any one men’s comp, no one knows who will win. And any one men’s comp, someone can come out of nowhere to win. even someone who’s been skating senior for ten years.:agree: why I love the men.

People may prefer to see younger skaters, fine. I don’t think it would be the end of the world to raise the age limit a year, fine. But the last thing the men are is the same old, same old

As I said, shiny gold has never ever been the “be all and end all” for me, so there is that

You didn’t see it coming that it’s going be between Chen and Hanyu?

The competition and suspense right now exists on bronze and below in gentlemen division in my view thanks to the late teens-very early twenties gentlemen influx which for the ladies biologically corresponds to fifteen-nineteen years of age.

el henry · Jan 14, 2020

lariko said:
I have an inkling that winning matters to them and impacts their wellbeing and potential for earnings—unless, of course, you envision the parents footing the bills for those prolonged careers. Most skaters who remain in the long term seems to have been on the podium at the start of their career as rather young people. Moving the goal post for today’s teens would seem unfair.

Of course winning matters to them. But it’s not the only thing. Nor should it be.

I don’t know many skating parents. But the ones I know of, and the ones I’ve read about, care like every parent first and foremost about their children’s happiness. They don’t want to move their kid through the system as fast as possible so they can win win win before puberty, I have never heard that or read that. If some parents do, I don’t know what to say. I think it’s a gosh darned shame :shrug:

I do agree that in the perfect world where the age limit would be raised (yes, I know, my “perfect” world :laugh:

) I agree it should not be implemented immediately.

ladyjane · Jan 14, 2020

lariko said:
You didn’t see it coming that it’s going be between Chen and Hanyu?

The competition and suspense right now exists on bronze and below in gentlemen division in my view thanks to the late teens-very early twenties gentlemen influx which for the ladies biologically corresponds to fifteen-nineteen years of age.

But I still love to watch Jason, in medal contention or not. And Elizaveta (whom I've been following for a long time. She's still there) who finds ways to still be present for all of us. Especially in jumps. And I adored Bradie at the GPF, in medal contention or not (I repeat myself sometimes). She's definitely older than 19. And I've just started to enjoy Medvedeva's skates....which will only get better even without big quadruple jumps. She was a nobody to me in 2016 but she's someone to follow and root for now. Starting at 19.

el henry · Jan 14, 2020

lariko said:
You didn’t see it coming that it’s going be between Chen and Hanyu?

The competition and suspense right now exists on bronze and below in gentlemen division in my view thanks to the late teens-very early twenties gentlemen influx which for the ladies biologically corresponds to fifteen-nineteen years of age.

I think the difference is our definitions, which probably won’t change:

1. For me, “rivalry” includes more than just who is the World champion or the gold medal. I understand that others may see it in those terms, but I’m too old to change my definition :laugh:

.

2. I looove the fight for bronze in most comps. If it is meaningful to a skater, I love the fight for a PB. See point one :biggrin:

Of course, it is OK to have different definitions, but it means the conclusions must necessarily be different too.

lariko · Jan 14, 2020

el henry said:
Of course winning matters to them. But it’s not the only thing. Nor should it be.

I don’t know many skating parents. But the ones I know of, and the ones I’ve read about, care like every parent first and foremost about their children’s happiness. They don’t want to move their kid through the system as fast as possible so they can win win win before puberty, I have never heard that or read that. If some parents do, I don’t know what to say. I think it’s a gosh darned shame

I do agree that in the perfect world where the age limit would be raised (yes, I know, my “perfect” world) I agree it should not be implemented immediately.

Someone I knew had a child competing nationally in speed skating. It adds up to paying fees, gear and high cost food, travelling, looking for coaches, etc. Ksenia Sinitsina put it bluntly in an interview a year ago, to be invited to a show, one must return from a competition with a medal, preferably gold in colour. Competitive sport is not a hobby.

ladyjane · Jan 14, 2020

lariko said:
Someone I knew had a child competing nationally in speed skating. It adds up to paying fees, gear and high cost food, travelling, looking for coaches, etc. Ksenia Sinitsina put it bluntly in an interview a year ago, to be invited to a show, one must return from a competition with a medal, preferably gold in colour. Competitive sport is not a hobby.

Hahaha...please don't mention speed skating to someone who comes from a country where speed skating gets all the funding, but where figure skating is totally under the radar. I've been trying to get a more figure skating supporting climate here - if only by funding certain skaters and participating in a Foundation promoting the sport. But one of the 'skating mums' told me, for figure skating they had to pay themselves. by the way: speed skaters never get invited to shows, so there's no comparison.

lariko · Jan 14, 2020

ladyjane said:
Hahaha...please don't mention speed skating to someone who comes from a country where speed skating gets all the funding, but where figure skating is totally under the radar. I've been trying to get a more figure skating supporting climate here - if only by funding certain skaters and participating in a Foundation promoting the sport. But one of the 'skating mums' told me, for figure skating they had to pay themselves. by the way: speed skaters never get invited to shows, so there's no comparison.

I didn’t say speed skaters were invited, I quoted Sinitsina, a figure skater, who was 13 at the time, coming back with 4th place in JW.

And, as far as winning, I would quote Uno (also a figure skater), “it’s not as much fun when you are not winning”

ladyjane · Jan 14, 2020

lariko said:
I didn’t say speed skaters were invited, I quoted Sinitsina, a figure skater, who was 13 at the time, coming back with 4th place in JW.

And, as far as winning, I would quote Uno (also a figure skater), “it’s not as much fun when you are not winning”

Of course you didn't say speed skaters were invited, you just mentioned them as a comparison. That's what made me laugh. Not at you, but at the comparison as speed skating and Figure Skating are so different. But obviously everyone wants to win. I've never denied that. I just wish skaters to root for over a period of time, as a watcher not as an athlete. In speed skating that's normal by the way. Us Dutchies are all rooting for Kramer (the Speed fans that is) and he's been on the scene for many years! Many people worry about his injuries, but because we like him to be back in medal contention, and admire him for going on. Even though he never managed to get the 10 km Olympic gold. The same longevity thing: we don't want a one day champ, a fluke, we want someone to follow through the years. Even in speed skating.

lariko · Jan 14, 2020

ladyjane said:
Of course you didn't say speed skaters were invited, you just mentioned them as a comparison. That's what made me laugh. Not at you, but at the comparison as speed skating and Figure Skating are so different. But obviously everyone wants to win. I've never denied that. I just wish skaters to root for over a period of time, as a watcher not as an athlete. In speed skating that's normal by the way. Us Dutchies are all rooting for Kramer (the Speed fans that is) and he's been on the scene for many years! Many people worry about his injuries, but because we like him to be back in medal contention, and admire him for going on. Even though he never managed to get the 10 km Olympic gold. The same longevity thing: we don't want a one day champ, a fluke, we want someone to follow through the years. Even in speed skating.

I think athletes starting at the age they do now will not impact their longevity. Some of them may skate longer, because they won’t be held back during their peak potential to win medals, so they won’t be frustrated for an extra year bowing to the four sides of the empty arenas when they can outscore the seniors in their national competitions. Some will skate for as long as their body could take it.

If you raise the age limit the way Arutunyan suggests, it will take a year or two... then it will rebalance again. All that would change, is that 16 yos will be blamed, not 15 yos, and the hunt for small & slim would intensify.

I don’t think changing the rules to protect one single group of skaters for one year is wise.

Honestly, when I look at Braidie, I feel more concern for her at 21 than I do for Scherbakova at 16, in terms of low body fat, and I pray that her slimness is from genetic predisposition to single digits BF%, not starvation. And in Montreal, it will probably be the last time I am going to watch Hanyu skate, because it’s getting to the point when my heart can’t take it.

ladyjane · Jan 14, 2020

I loved this discussion. Thank you Edwin for posting the original interview, thank you El Henry and Lariko for making the discussion so enjoyable. Did anyone of us 'win'? Nope. I don't think so. We all maintained our own views. But we also managed to keep everything civil and maintain an open mind. Hurrah for us! Hihihi...and don't you dare say otherwise! :love:

And I hope your heart will take it!!!!!!! (for Lariko especially, this one)

giulia95 · Jan 15, 2020

lariko said:
At least when I look at Trusova, I don’t experience the same sense of cold dread and guilt that I shouldn’t be watching this kid destroying himself as I do looking at Hanyu.

.... it’s getting to the point when my heart can’t take it ... :drama:

wombatch · Jan 15, 2020

lariko said:
If you raise the age limit the way Arutunyan suggests, it will take a year or two... then it will rebalance again. All that would change, is that 16 yos will be blamed, not 15 yos, and the hunt for small & slim would intensify.

I support the raising of age limit. It's been done in gymnastics and there are still tiny girls who benefit from their size, but there are also bigger women who benefit from strength, power, or increased artistry. But my biggest reason to support older skaters is that they would be women, not children. A child of 11, 12, etc does not fully get to decide how much they skate, how often they train, whether they need to back off due to injury, etc. They are more likely to be led (or even forced) by the parents and the coaches. A young women of 16 is better able to stand up for herself, to say "no" when she's hurting, to better make her own decisions to guide her skating career. Having the mental confidence and autonomy that comes with age is ultimately in the best interest of the skater, herself. And, if that translates to longevity, all the better.

lariko · Jan 15, 2020

wombatch said:
I support the raising of age limit. It's been done in gymnastics and there are still tiny girls who benefit from their size, but there are also bigger women who benefit from strength, power, or increased artistry. But my biggest reason to support older skaters is that they would be women, not children. A child of 11, 12, etc does not fully get to decide how much they skate, how often they train, whether they need to back off due to injury, etc. They are more likely to be led (or even forced) by the parents and the coaches. A young women of 16 is better able to stand up for herself, to say "no" when she's hurting, to better make her own decisions to guide her skating career. Having the mental confidence and autonomy that comes with age is ultimately in the best interest of the skater, herself. And, if that translates to longevity, all the better.

It’s 15 not 11. They also all start train at 4 to 6 yo. Gymnasts must turn sixteen within the calendar year in which they compete. Skater must be 15 before July 1st of the year Previous to competition. The difference is a few month, probably less if you compare when the seasons start.

Girl drop out rates in sport is already 1.5x that of boys by 14, by 17, half girls drop sports altogether. Most of them quote not seeing future for themselves in the sport.

And figure skating is one sport that can inspire girls, and get them on the highest podiums at this crucial age.

another Rafael Arutunian interview

lariko

ladyjane

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

lariko

ladyjane

lariko

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

lariko

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

ladyjane

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

lariko

ladyjane

lariko

ladyjane

lariko

ladyjane

giulia95

wombatch

lariko

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