another Rafael Arutunian interview | Page 3 | Golden Skate

another Rafael Arutunian interview

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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The solution to girls dropping out of sports is to find sports that they can play, engage with and enjoy all their life.:agree: accommodating dropping out is admitting failure and contrary to the principles of sport, IMO.
 

lariko

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Jan 31, 2019
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Canada
Also, for an example of longevity in figure skating specifically, Tuktamysheva competed as early as she was allowed, won plenty, lost some, and is not going anywhere, and that’s in Russia. In Japan, Kihira took the lead at an early age, and the younger ladies cannot bypass her nationally, and she is a serious contender for the World medal.

They don’t score higher the younger they are either. Older Kostornaya wins over her two younger countrywomen. Older Young You just won over younger Sinitsina...

And in pairs where longevity and ages of the skaters are overall higher than in singles... somehow that’s the least favoured discipline for the fans where they are guaranteed to watch the same smaller number of skaters for a decade.
 

lariko

Medalist
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Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
The solution to girls dropping out of sports is to find sports that they can play, engage with and enjoy all their life.:agree: accommodating dropping out is admitting failure and contrary to the principles of sport, IMO.

And denying acknowledgement and achievement because someone is too young is sporting? While commending young overachievers in practically every other sphere of life. He was king and a warrior at 14! She taught herself to read at the age three! He was a virtuoso pianist at nine! Etc, etc, etc. But you skate good? Yeah, forget it.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
And denying acknowledgement and achievement because someone is too young is sporting? While commending young overachievers in practically every other sphere of life. He was king and a warrior at 14! She taught herself to read at the age three! He was a virtuoso pianist at nine! Etc, etc, etc. But you skate good? Yeah, forget it.

I’m afraid I don’t know who is doing all this commending dor other “young” achievers, but it isn’t me? :confused: and in fact, piano is a good example. A 13 year old may play the Emperor Concerto note-perfect and up to tempo. A 13 year old has nothing to say about the Emperor Concerto that I want to hear.

Other sports have minimum age participation that come at a much higher price tag than that of figure skating. The American professional sports leagues, for example, where athletes are giving up much more of a payday than any figure skater.

So agree or disagree on minimum ages, or what the age should be, I understand, but they are not limited to figure skating.
 

flanker

Record Breaker
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Feb 10, 2018
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Czech-Republic
Of course you didn't say speed skaters were invited, you just mentioned them as a comparison. That's what made me laugh. Not at you, but at the comparison as speed skating and Figure Skating are so different. But obviously everyone wants to win. I've never denied that. I just wish skaters to root for over a period of time, as a watcher not as an athlete. In speed skating that's normal by the way. Us Dutchies are all rooting for Kramer (the Speed fans that is) and he's been on the scene for many years! Many people worry about his injuries, but because we like him to be back in medal contention, and admire him for going on. Even though he never managed to get the 10 km Olympic gold. The same longevity thing: we don't want a one day champ, a fluke, we want someone to follow through the years. Even in speed skating.

The times of favorite skaters having subscribed gold are long gone with 6.0 system, it is not the matter of young or old skaters. And I'm glad it is that way. I can follow someone through years even when that person just won't win everything, on the other hand I don't like competitions decided before they even started.

As I've said already, since the times of Michelle Kwan (16 years) the only lady who won worlds back to back was Evgenia Medvedeva and only Mao Asada has won world three times (always in 4 years period). And it had nothing to do with 15 or 16 years old evil skaters who disturb the peace and take the medals from those who deserve it :). The system is different and doesn't benefit "favorites" as much as it did before. For me, the popularity of the spord lies it that there is strong element of uncertainty and unpredictability, esp. when equally good athletes meet and win through actual form and performance, not through the credit and name.
 

flanker

Record Breaker
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Feb 10, 2018
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Czech-Republic
I’m afraid I don’t know who is doing all this commending dor other “young” achievers, but it isn’t me? :confused: and in fact, piano is a good example. A 13 year old may play the Emperor Concerto note-perfect and up to tempo. A 13 year old has nothing to say about the Emperor Concerto that I want to hear.

So far Alexandra Dovgan at her 12 played every piano piece the way it requires :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlZShqHVfE0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h38-caEXuuM
 

lusterfan

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 23, 2018
I'm also genuinely conflicted about the age requirement in general.

On one hand, I marvel at the achievements of the young skaters. If they are truly out skating their rivals, then they deserve praise regardless of their age by virtue of what sport represents. However on the other hand, I do not want the sport to favor younger skaters simply because of the physics behind a smaller frame. On that note though, all sports will have a bias for a certain body type (swimmers with longer/wider upper bodies, basketball players with taller heights, etc), so perhaps it's unfair to pin this on figure skating simply because age coincides with the more preferred body type.

Say we raise the age limit to 18. It would be awkward if the juniors continued chucking triple axels and quads with jubilant effervescence, while we watched senior skaters at the Olympics struggle with triples. That's an exaggeration, but the fact is that smaller frames in younger skaters tend to rotate quads more easily. Are the senior level competitions, and specifically the Olympics, truly crowning the very best skaters? We argue that countries shouldn't have limits because "the best should be able to compete" ... so why should age suddenly negate this sentiment? And I'm sure there are plenty of younger skaters who just happen to be so darn good, regardless of the smaller frame they may have. Or we may even have a young skater who doesn't have a stereotypical small frame yet is still able to produce magnificent skating skills and quads. To deny someone like her from the Olympics on the basis of age could be an issue.

And on a more tangential note, people always argue that the lower age limit leads to fewer lasting stars, fewer lasting careers, basically a lack of longevity. However, I'm confused by what an age limit would accomplish here. There will always be the same number of Worlds spots. Say the age limit raised to 17 and Russia had to name Evgenia, Alina, and Liza to Worlds. 3A would not qualify due to age. One or two years later anyway, 3A will all move up and now we have the same issue with not enough spots. The issue here is lack of spots for the crazy amount of depth Russia and some other countries have. There will always be a steady stream of depth who will move up to Seniors eventually. Age limits won't change that. Without the age limit, older skaters can stick around and compete as long as they want (regardless of if they make teams), the same way they would be able to compete for as long as they want if they had fewer competitors. They still have to beat out all the depth in the Senior rankings to make the team. Longevity only really works for countries without depth, like Spain or Italy - Fernandez and Kostner don't always have to be at their A-game but will still make teams. With the age limit raised, in Russia, we could have Elena Radionova and Anna Pogorilaya have fewer competitors in Seniors yet still not make teams because of depth. If you argue that they can just stick around and compete freely for longevity, they honestly could do that with or without younger skaters in seniors. If the question is making teams to count as longevity, depth will be an issue no matter what.

Take Evgenia for example. She can keep competing until she wants to stop. She's still good enough where she can compete with younger skaters - she just might not be good enough to make Worlds. If we age limited out 3A, Evgenia would make Worlds this year, but next year or two years from now, new age seniors will move up and possibly bump her out of Worlds. So we did all that for what, really? In countries with ample depth, new seniors are produced every year. I just don't see why people seem to equate raising the age limit will magically produce more spots to produce longevity. Maybe you can argue seniors can try less hard and be able to maintain their bodies longer if they didn't have to compete with youngsters, however doing so would probably get them outcompeted by other seniors who are trying more anyway. You can't just scale back your efforts and still hope to be competitive in a sport. When we use arguments like Tennis, which has more longevity in stars like the Williams sisters or Djokovic, or football stars ... the structure of the sports allow for longevity. Teams are bigger, competitions are more open, and monetary and commercial availability allow for more exposure. Besides, no one is stopping Evgenia from being like Leonova, continuing to compete at national events and attending Grand Prix events for as long as she's still competitive.

I realize this was a rather incoherent rant, but I just wanted to pick at other peoples' brains and understand why they think raising the age limit will magically solve the issue with depth, spots, and longevity, whatever they think that is.

I would be on board with raising the age limit if it meant being a substantially safer route for young skaters - to let them try fewer ultra-si elements at a young age, potentially saving them from damaging their bodies for life. However, as with all other sports, athletes are going to try to extend their limits. All sports face this dilemma, just maybe not to the same extent. That's partially why we love to follow sports - we are watching superhumans do what we can't. It's going to be hard to stop young skaters and their coaches from not trying to achieve more and more. What we might create could potentially just be young skaters still chucking difficulty early on, but burning out before they reach seniors. We've essentially denied them even the chance to compete with seniors. And let's be real, a lot of these elements just won't be possible for a majority of these skaters as they're older. Barely any coaches are equipped to teach older skaters or developed skaters these ultra-si elements. Again, if for legitimate health reasons, I'm all for raising age limits, but I'm worried we'd artificially stifle innovation and difficulty in the sport. A skater like Alysa might not ever be as successful if she didn't try these elements. Sure, she might be able to last longer in seniors, but only be a middling skater who would never make international teams. Who's to decide which path is better for her? Maybe she values showing what she can do now versus never being able to do any of it later and regretting never trying. Sport is meant to push human limits, and I'm not sure where and when we draw the line.
 

eaglehelang

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 15, 2017
I prefer it when I don’t know who will win in advance. I would love it if the top ten ranking all had a chance to be on the podium, and not just in the running for bronze. I want to see new faces, new ideas, new daring rewarded, not put into a queue.

With the current system in the ladies, we already know anyway. Whoever has the quads & 3A and lands them wins.

With the men, one never really knows, esp during 2015 to 2018 season when the quad craze was on. The men do multiple quads, ice is slippery.

With a vast majority of other sports, the athletes compete 2 Olympic cycles at least. These days even women's gymnastics has longer active careers than Women's Figure Skating. Longevity is a factor to consider when parents want to sign their kids up for a sport.
 

colormyworld240

Medalist
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
With the current system in the ladies, we already know anyway. Whoever has the quads & 3A and lands them wins.

With the men, one never really knows, esp during 2015 to 2018 season when the quad craze was on. The men do multiple quads, ice is slippery.

With a vast majority of other sports, the athletes compete 2 Olympic cycles at least. These days even women's gymnastics has longer active careers than Women's Figure Skating. Longevity is a factor to consider when parents want to sign their kids up for a sport.

Take away the quads and 3As, and whoever has the most difficult triples and lands them wins. The quad craze in ladies is very recent. Before that, we had skaters like Alina, Kaetlyn, Evgenia, and Satoko who won many medals when they landed their planned layouts. Then we've also seen them lose when they didn't land their jumps. I would say it's the same in men: even Yuzuru Hanyu can't win if he makes enough mistakes. Whoever completes the most difficult elements (not just jumps) with the best execution wins. If quads and 3As were the only thing that mattered, Alena Kostornaia wouldn't be GPF champion; it would go to Trusova/Kihira who planned quads and 3As.

Longevity is not a factor for everyone; there have always been skaters with longer and shorter careers. Even when Witt and Kwan had their dominance, there were also many skaters who stopped earlier. And AFAIK, Tuktamysheva is still skating competitively at 23. And Carolina Kostner was still medalling very late into her career. We can't expect everyone to have long careers, quads or not. Even during Michelle Kwan's time, there was only one Michelle, not 20. And there was also Tara Lipinski who compete against her as a teen.
 

colormyworld240

Medalist
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
I support the raising of age limit. It's been done in gymnastics and there are still tiny girls who benefit from their size, but there are also bigger women who benefit from strength, power, or increased artistry. But my biggest reason to support older skaters is that they would be women, not children. A child of 11, 12, etc does not fully get to decide how much they skate, how often they train, whether they need to back off due to injury, etc. They are more likely to be led (or even forced) by the parents and the coaches. A young women of 16 is better able to stand up for herself, to say "no" when she's hurting, to better make her own decisions to guide her skating career. Having the mental confidence and autonomy that comes with age is ultimately in the best interest of the skater, herself. And, if that translates to longevity, all the better.

So you support raising the age of when a skater should start figure skating, not competing, right? Because the issues you've listed (which are indeed real concerns) are with training. So then skaters should not begin training until they're 16? AFAIK, most skaters start way before 16. Even Liza, who is now 23 and would qualify in any age limit increase still started skating young.
 

rosy14

Final Flight
Joined
Apr 2, 2016
How could any new rivalries develop if it’s all the same small pool of skaters for many years? If barrier to entry into competitive events is too low, it’s unfair to those not selected of equal capabilities. If the barrier is as high as it is now, it is taxing to the point when maintaining competitive shape for a number of years borders on health issues.

Males develop slower and retain lean mass better over years, because they don’t have hormonal reproductive pressure. They perform better when lean, handle fasting better.

Pushing for delay of entry into the competition, and insisting on longer stay in the sport for women will result in selection leaning towards either the ladies predisposed naturally to higher levels of male hormones or the ones that would jeopardize their hormonal balance by the simplest method possible, food deprivation. It’s by far more dangers imo, than letting the vibrant teens compete. They had years of training.

Actually males have hormonal reproductive pressure, I.e. testosterone production. It starts a little later, but it starts. So a boy becomes taller and bigger, a young man. And if he skates, and gets,say, 15-20 cm in height, he must re-learn the whole jump technique, and I believe, spinning technique too. And as a matter of fact many promising junior male skaters get lost with puberty or need years to come back.
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
Not to take anything away from her very legit win, but Valieva barely beat Liu who had 3 underrotations and a fall on said quad lutzes and 3A in her FS.

Kamila had pretty bad SP (for her standards), with both segments clean she would have won by much larger margin.
 

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
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Jan 5, 2019
Arutyunyan is quite the mysoginist for comparing Tutberidze’s Terrific Trio to disposable cups.
 

[email protected]

Medalist
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Mar 26, 2014
Arutyunyan is quite the mysoginist for comparing Tutberidze’s Terrific Trio to disposable cups.

They are all envious. Raf is just lucky to win a jackpot with Nathan Chen. I am sure any other good coach would do no worse than him with such a student. They even live in different cities while Nathan is doing his studies. Eteri's success has nothing to do with luck - it's a system. And she is also on the ice every day with all of them (except competitions and vacations). Nothing like long-distance coaching.
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
Arutyunyan is quite the mysoginist for comparing Tutberidze’s Terrific Trio to disposable cups.

Aruthunyan is just pushing his agenda/opinion the way he thinks he will win the argument. But it is interresting how much people are focused on (russian) girls, while men are somehow out of sight. Take Daniel Grassl, for instance, he competed for Italy at Europeans in his 16 last year and I didn't hear a single word about how men shouldn't compete with boys, because it is unfair. :)
 

eaglehelang

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 15, 2017
No. Valieva won over Liu who had landed 2 quad lutzes and 3A.

Trusova won 2019 Rostelecom with 2 falls in the LP. Anyone & Everyone knew she was going to win before the competition even started.

And didnt Alysa Liu have a fall on her 3A and UR calls on both 4 Lutz in her LP?

For the men, it's more competitive. There are 4 to 5 men currently who can do a 4 quad LP. They are from 4 different countries. The 4 quad guy might finish behind the 3 quad guy who skates clean.
 

lurkz2

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
They are all envious. Raf is just lucky to win a jackpot with Nathan Chen. I am sure any other good coach would do no worse than him with such a student. They even live in different cities while Nathan is doing his studies. Eteri's success has nothing to do with luck - it's a system. And she is also on the ice every day with all of them (except competitions and vacations). Nothing like long-distance coaching.

OTOH Nathan has been with Raf far longer than any of the 4A has been with Eteri and trained most if not all of his current jump elements with Raf
 

eaglehelang

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 15, 2017
Longevity is not a factor for everyone; there have always been skaters with longer and shorter careers. Even when Witt and Kwan had their dominance, there were also many skaters who stopped earlier. And AFAIK, Tuktamysheva is still skating competitively at 23. And Carolina Kostner was still medalling very late into her career. We can't expect everyone to have long careers, quads or not. Even during Michelle Kwan's time, there was only one Michelle, not 20. And there was also Tara Lipinski who compete against her as a teen.
Back in those days, didnt the skaters had shows where they can money from? Wasnt that one the reasons some retired early?

Longevity is a factor in terms of funding, state funding. Return of Investment. The government does not invest in an athlete just to see them fizzle out after age 18.
Only rich countries with larger talent pool(ie larger population) can keep this up.

Of course not everyone has long careers, the median age is taken into consideration. This median is getting shorter.
In other sports, generally the women retire between age 25 to 29. Even after they won 2 Olympic golds, multiple WCs, even though its a powerhouse country with depth in talent.
 
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