another Rafael Arutunian interview | Page 4 | Golden Skate

another Rafael Arutunian interview

ancientpeas

The Notorious SEW
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Jan 11, 2014
My only agreement with Raf has less to do with the age issue and more to do with the sport and the issue of name recognition, casual fans and rivalries. When the Olympics come around a sport needs a story to draw people in and some name recognition and if people only watch a sport during the Olympics then they might only remember Alina and Evgenia. You could certainly spin a great story there for the next Olympics about old rivalries and the whole coaching issues and Evgenia wanting the gold she thought of as hers. It's a good story and people remember the drama. However if Figure Skating was smart they could start building a really good narrative around Aliona, Alexandra and Anna and really build it to the Olympics. The problem is other youngsters come up and pushes them out then you kind of have these no name champions. We might know that they are junior world champions and such but most casual fans do not.

Great rivalries play out over time and build over Olympic cycles. I don't think it is necessarily about age but about time. Is 2 years long enough to build a compelling narrative around a skater? Is one year? Is a season? It would take a very special skater for casual fans to be invested in by just meeting them at the games.. Yulia was like that. I got the feeling a lot of people became invested in her and really wanted her to do well even though they didn't know her. I think Yulia beating Yuna might have been easier for the casual fan than Adelina.
 

jenaj

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Arutyunyan is quite the mysoginist for comparing Tutberidze’s Terrific Trio to disposable cups.

I don't see it as misogynist. Also, he wasn't specifically referring to the current skaters.
 

jenaj

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He had Mao Asada in 2006 and she was just too you to compete at the olympics, at the time he told the news papers that he had a Japanese skater that was better than all the girls who competed at the olympics. He has had young skaters who were great, Mao wasn't the only one Nathan has been another one.

I don't think Rafael was Mao's coach in 2006--at least not at the time of the Olympics. He was coaching Michelle Kwan at that time. I don't recall Mao and Michelle training with the same coach at the same time.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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Arutyunyan is quite the mysoginist for comparing Tutberidze’s Terrific Trio to disposable cups.

Sorry, I think that’s baloney.

Not what Raf meant. And as I said in another thread, trying to frame the issue of raising the age for senior women as “misogyny” is diversion. Which I say as a woman of a certain age who has battled real discrimination in the workplace and elsewhere. (And much of this argument I see on this Board is from posters identifying as male, trying to tell me what misogyny is:laugh:).

Agree or disagree, nothing misogynistic about it. :shrug:
 

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
Arutyunyan is quite the mysoginist for comparing Tutberidze’s Terrific Trio to disposable cups.

Every time I see anybody accusing others of "being misogynist" to me it's a prime case of "woke" bullying. It disqualifies the argument and the accuser.
Plus, if you decide to use this word please learn to spell it.
 

ladyjane

Medalist
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Jun 26, 2012
Country
Netherlands
Arutyunyan is quite the mysoginist for comparing Tutberidze’s Terrific Trio to disposable cups.

As a woman, I really can't agree on this one. Whatever I thought when reading the comparison between drinking coffee from porcelain or disposable cups, misogyny is not it. He could have said exactly the same thing about boys (and men). Actually, he referred to the not liking one year champions, the flukes who are lucky or skate well just once. This could apply to anybody, except that he provided examples from the ladies. Does that make someone a misogynist? I may not support all his points, but I'd not accuse him of being that. I've read much worse comments on that score from other coaches.
 

alexaa

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 27, 2018
If you go back to read his old interviews, you will find Raf was asking for raising age limit several years ago, and yes, he would like to raise the age limit for boys too.

He was not referring to Eteri’s 3As, or anyone specific.

It is fine to disagree with his opinions, but i don’t think it make your arguments more valid to accuse of him being jealous of some coaches with amazing girls, and accuse him of double standards.

He was once asked why Nathan was trained with so many quads, his reply at that time was Nathan’s family was from another culture something like that.

This is not what Raf said, it is just a Nathan fan’s statement, Nathan got his first quad at age 15. He didn’t really start learning quad that early. He just leaned all 4 types of quad faster than others. He learned 4lz and 4f after his hip injury in 2016 at age 17. He didn’t like the idea of putting too many quads in the programs back around 2015/2016

Regarding Nathan’s hip injury in 2016, read Nathan’s own interview. In 2 of the interviews I read, Nathan said Raf foresaw the injuries coming and tried to stop him from overworking.

I don’t agree with him every time, but Raf does value longevity in both men and ladies.
 

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
My only agreement with Raf has less to do with the age issue and more to do with the sport and the issue of name recognition, casual fans and rivalries. When the Olympics come around a sport needs a story to draw people in and some name recognition and if people only watch a sport during the Olympics then they might only remember Alina and Evgenia. You could certainly spin a great story there for the next Olympics about old rivalries and the whole coaching issues and Evgenia wanting the gold she thought of as hers. It's a good story and people remember the drama. However if Figure Skating was smart they could start building a really good narrative around Aliona, Alexandra and Anna and really build it to the Olympics. The problem is other youngsters come up and pushes them out then you kind of have these no name champions. We might know that they are junior world champions and such but most casual fans do not.

You said it as if figure skating is tv series first and sport second. As if entertaining the spectators is its main purpose - and everything else is just an afterthought. As if all many years work and hopes of hundred athletes means nothing - as long as popcorn crunching middlebrow will be content to see familiar faces of few chosen ones at the cost of hundreds careers of others. All that philosophy just reeks of extremely selfish, consumer-like approach with zero respect to athletes needs. Such people doesn't love figure skating. They can love one or two fs stars - but it's not the same as the love to the whole sport, to all athletes within it. True fs fans can enjoy and appreciate any good performance - whether it's from their favorite skater or not. Moreover, truly good performance (of anyone) is their main goal in watching fs - not chance to see favorite's face. I really hope that ISU will be making its rules keeping athletes needs and disciplines progress in mind as their highest priority - and not succumbing to whims of a random people who likes to watch Oly games once per 4 years and in fact do not care about this sport at all.

But, even if we assume that entertainment of casual viewers is what should rule this sport after all. Did Raf watched Canadian Nationals, I wonder? Nah, I bet he never intended to in the first place :biggrin: What I mean is that it's hard to imagine more boring spectacle than it was. Despite that it's epitome of Raf ideals and what he wants to turn ladies figure skating into :rolleye: Majority of participants are 18+ y.o. or have true senior ladies bodies. And what an eye candy they presented to true ladies skating connosieurs there! Constant falls and pops, bland programs and zero interpretation, 3T+2T combos as pinnacle of technical difficulty, 63+ top score and almost empty tribunes.. ah, what a treat! :sarcasm:
On a serious note - it's far from what can entertain even casual viewers. On other hand, Olympic performances of 15y.o. Zagitova and Lipnickaya are insanely popular in youtube - with multimillion number of views they truly became iconic performances and face of ladies figure skating in a way. And such performances will be lost forever with raising the age - as 18+ y.o. skaters are not capable to do such technically difficult and deceptively easy, fairy like skating, make such perfect spins etc. They can't have needed flexibility and weight to make truly perfect performance in modern skating. All of that is contradicting what Raf said concerning casual viewers needs too :confused2: Also, judging by how commentators of CanNat tried to justify all of it - there are huge amount of injuries constantly plaguing their adult talents (I suspect the main reason for them is accumulated strain and nonoptimal weight - which are straight derivatives of age) - which again contradicts with what Raf said about careers prolongation and health preservation.
All in all, while on a paper at first glance Raf ideas seems rather proper - real life shows different picture :coffee:
 

ancientpeas

The Notorious SEW
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Jan 11, 2014
Yeah.. thanks for the rather low blow at Canadian Nationals. If it is so terrible feel free not to watch. We have never excelled at ladies and have never had depth.

I'm actually against raising the age limit as I have said before. I'm merely talking about how to make figure skating more compelling to casual fans. Casual fans tend to want drama and good stories so they can get behind an athlete and root for them. If a athlete is only around for one season or two then it is hard for audiences to really connect with them and be invested in their journey. I, personally, would like to see these young ladies stay around for awhile.
 

Decoder

On the Ice
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Oct 5, 2019
Every time I see anybody accusing others of "being misogynist" to me it's a prime case of "woke" bullying. It disqualifies the argument and the accuser.
Plus, if you decide to use this word please learn to spell it.

No need to be too aggressive. It's just a typo.
 

Amei

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
Yeah.. thanks for the rather low blow at Canadian Nationals. If it is so terrible feel free not to watch. We have never excelled at ladies and have never had depth. .

Fact is a lot of people wanting to up age requirements have mentioned 17-18 as a new age minimum, Canadian Nationals this year (for the ladies of the one's I could find on Google) they were 17 or older, so here are the 'mature' ladies. Does anyone think that what happened at Canadian Nationals is going to bring fans to the sport, or what die-hard fans want to see at events like the GPF or Worlds?
 

ancientpeas

The Notorious SEW
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Joined
Jan 11, 2014
Fact is a lot of people wanting to up age requirements have mentioned 17-18 as a new age minimum, Canadian Nationals this year (for the ladies of the one's I could find on Google) they were 17 or older, so here are the 'mature' ladies. Does anyone think that what happened at Canadian Nationals is going to bring fans to the sport, or what die-hard fans want to see at events like the GPF or Worlds?

No. And I didn't say that. I said that rivalries push the popularity of sports and it hard for athletes to have name recognition when they only stay around for a season or two.

I do wish that those who want longer careers can have them but I have no desire to hold back the new young stars. I'm not sure how what I said could be read that way.

I was merely talking about the way that sports is framed during the Olympics and how it is often presented to the general public. They often focus on two or three main stars and have a narrative they like to stick to. Rivalries make great narratives. Old scores make great narratives. Evgenia vs Alina part 2 would be a great narrative for 2022 but it is unlikely to happen.

All I want for 2022 is for the best skater to win. In all likelihood that will be a Russian lady or maybe a Japanese lady and it would be nice if she gets the media attention she deserves and a good narrative will help with that and maybe get her more press and attention outside of Japan and Russia.
 

colormyworld240

Medalist
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
Back in those days, didnt the skaters had shows where they can money from? Wasnt that one the reasons some retired early?

Longevity is a factor in terms of funding, state funding. Return of Investment. The government does not invest in an athlete just to see them fizzle out after age 18.
Only rich countries with larger talent pool(ie larger population) can keep this up.

Of course not everyone has long careers, the median age is taken into consideration. This median is getting shorter.
In other sports, generally the women retire between age 25 to 29. Even after they won 2 Olympic golds, multiple WCs, even though its a powerhouse country with depth in talent.

I haven't crunched the data for this, so I'm not sure if it's true. Can you provide it? What's the median age of the ladies on the GP this year vs 5 and 10 years ago?

And has the age of retirement decreased? I mean yeah Lipnitskaya retired at a younger age than Kwan, but what's the median for say all skaters who have been to a world championship in certain timeframe?

AFAIK in ladies figure skating, only one skater has won two olympic golds so there really is no data for a percentage of those who continue after, past or present regardless of whether the standard for competitive jumps are doubles or quads.

And regarding shows being the reason why some skaters retired early in the past, you can also say that for current skaters. Lipnitskaya has done many shows since she's retired. So have Radionova and Sotnikova, and I assume they got paid for them. Medvedeva and Zagitova both did shows recently (not retired but have ended their seasons early). So what's the difference?
 

Elspeth

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 30, 2019
One of the problems with raising the age limit is that it's a little bit of a red herring. Imagine you have an underage drinking problem. Raising the age limit for drinking isn't going to stop your problem. Sure, people might start drinking a little later than before, but they'll still drink when they are not supposed to.

A new age limit in figure skating isn't suddenly going to produce healthy, artistic skaters with great technique and long careers. It's just going to make the young stars we watch in the future be slightly older than they are now. If we want to encourage better technique and skating skills, reward good technique and skating skills. Want healthier athletes? Educate and reform training practices.

Don't get me started on 'wanting to see women with real women bodies competiting'. These women are athletes, not princesses. It shouldn't matter what they look like. What matters is that they show off good jumps and good skating skills, regardless of physiology.

It's not as though being older necessarily translates to better artistry either. Liza is twenty-something and has great jumps, but her skating skills are inferior to Kamila Valieva's, who is not even a senior.

I'm not fully against raising the age limit to 16 (though I think 18 is a bit ridiculous), but that isn't going to magically solve all these issues Raf and others like to talk about. Not to mention the increased financial pressure on families having to fund their children's dream for 2-3 years longer to see any results. Sounds harsh, but a lot of people simply wouldn't be able to afford that. Sort that out first.
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
Yeah.. thanks for the rather low blow at Canadian Nationals. If it is so terrible feel free not to watch. We have never excelled at ladies and have never had depth.

Well, I don't wanna "low blow" at canadian nationals, but the fact that only 11th lady in the skating order was able to deliver a clean 3-3 combo in SP is rather sad. Allin all, sport should be about great performances, not about the drama in the first place, so even if such competition as canadian national would be compensated by some kind of soap opera drama that would attract more people to it, it wouldn't be for me.
 

DSQ

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Joined
Apr 14, 2018
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United-Kingdom
One of the problems with raising the age limit is that it's a little bit of a red herring. Imagine you have an underage drinking problem. Raising the age limit for drinking isn't going to stop your problem. Sure, people might start drinking a little later than before, but they'll still drink when they are not supposed to.

A new age limit in figure skating isn't suddenly going to produce healthy, artistic skaters with great technique and long careers. It's just going to make the young stars we watch in the future be slightly older than they are now. If we want to encourage better technique and skating skills, reward good technique and skating skills. Want healthier athletes? Educate and reform training practices.

Don't get me started on 'wanting to see women with real women bodies competiting'. These women are athletes, not princesses. It shouldn't matter what they look like. What matters is that they show off good jumps and good skating skills, regardless of physiology.

It's not as though being older necessarily translates to better artistry either. Liza is twenty-something and has great jumps, but her skating skills are inferior to Kamila Valieva's, who is not even a senior.

I'm not fully against raising the age limit to 16 (though I think 18 is a bit ridiculous), but that isn't going to magically solve all these issues Raf and others like to talk about. Not to mention the increased financial pressure on families having to fund their children's dream for 2-3 years longer to see any results. Sounds harsh, but a lot of people simply wouldn't be able to afford that. Sort that out first.

I think you make a great point and it makes me think a solution to the lack of longevity might be seen in changing the age limits but in changing the the value of elements?

A bit more focus of steps, turns and spins and slightly less on jumps might do to singles what we see in ice dance where experience is more valuable usually.

Ultimately I like jumps, they’re exciting, but it does seem they’re easier the younger you are.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
One of the problems with raising the age limit is that it's a little bit of a red herring. Imagine you have an underage drinking problem. Raising the age limit for drinking isn't going to stop your problem. Sure, people might start drinking a little later than before, but they'll still drink when they are not supposed to.

....

Exactly: and we raise the drinking age anyway!:thumbsup: we do not accept, oh they’re going to drink anyway, why bother. I know, I’ve lived through the raising of the drinking age and remember the arguments well:biggrin:

I’m never going to accept money as a reason for keeping lower age limits. Potential NBA draftees lose waaaaay more
money than skating parents spend, yet those limits stay in place. And they could get injured and never ever
cash in. What’s good for other sports, is good for skating :)
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
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Jan 28, 2013
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United-States
Arutyunyan is quite the mysoginist for comparing Tutberidze’s Terrific Trio to disposable cups.

I think it was just a metaphor to highlight what he (and I) consider to be a fact.

Under the current rules, the young Russian ladies deserve to win. If you're a fan of any particular one of them, enjoy it while you can.

His choice of words sounds harsh; that doesn't mean there's not an element of truth to them.
 
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