another Rafael Arutunian interview | Page 5 | Golden Skate

another Rafael Arutunian interview

Mentis

Spectator
Joined
Feb 14, 2014
My only agreement with Raf has less to do with the age issue and more to do with the sport and the issue of name recognition, casual fans and rivalries. When the Olympics come around a sport needs a story to draw people in and some name recognition and if people only watch a sport during the Olympics then they might only remember Alina and Evgenia. You could certainly spin a great story there for the next Olympics about old rivalries and the whole coaching issues and Evgenia wanting the gold she thought of as hers. It's a good story and people remember the drama. However if Figure Skating was smart they could start building a really good narrative around Aliona, Alexandra and Anna and really build it to the Olympics. The problem is other youngsters come up and pushes them out then you kind of have these no name champions. We might know that they are junior world champions and such but most casual fans do not.

Great rivalries play out over time and build over Olympic cycles. I don't think it is necessarily about age but about time. Is 2 years long enough to build a compelling narrative around a skater? Is one year? Is a season? It would take a very special skater for casual fans to be invested in by just meeting them at the games.. Yulia was like that. I got the feeling a lot of people became invested in her and really wanted her to do well even though they didn't know her. I think Yulia beating Yuna might have been easier for the casual fan than Adelina.

Is this really an issue though? I feel like you make creating the "Olympic narrative" sound much more complicated and difficult than it is.

Just look at PyeongChang through your lens.
If people only watched figure skating during the Olympics, then they might only remember Yuna, Yulia and Adelina. There was no great story to spin about rivalries and drama since all of them were retired. They started building a great narrative about Evgenia, but she got pushed out by up and coming youngster Alina. So you kind of have this "no name" Olympic champion where dedicated fans might know them as junior world champion and such but casual fans do not.
That's a story that's hard to get invested in. /s

Except that's not what happened at all, because the media isn't that incompetent. They're actually quite creative when it comes to making sure a story sells. They spun it into the tale of the rivalry of two training mates. The coronation of the reigning World champion versus the underdog young upstart. The artistic one versus the technical one. And the casual fans embraced it.

Going into Beijing it'll be the same. Even now I can list off a bunch of compelling narratives that I'm sure casual fans wouldn't mind. If Alena, Sasha and Anna make it, then it's the continuation of this ongoing story of training mates who each excel at different areas pushing each other to achieve new levels of brilliance. If only one makes it, it's the old champion trying to claim her Olympic title in the face of new challengers. If none of them make it, perhaps it'll be the story of Kamila and Alysa's rivalry, starting from their junior years and culminating in the highest stakes competition during their senior debut. If it's none of these skaters, then it can be the dramatic tale of an unexpected dark horse emerging just before the games to seize the crown.
I could go on and on. Point being, I really don't think the media's inability to create an interesting narrative for the casual fans is something worth genuinely worrying about.
 

[email protected]

Medalist
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Yeah.. thanks for the rather low blow at Canadian Nationals. If it is so terrible feel free not to watch. We have never excelled at ladies and have never had depth.

I'm actually against raising the age limit as I have said before. I'm merely talking about how to make figure skating more compelling to casual fans. Casual fans tend to want drama and good stories so they can get behind an athlete and root for them. If a athlete is only around for one season or two then it is hard for audiences to really connect with them and be invested in their journey. I, personally, would like to see these young ladies stay around for awhile.

I see little correlation between raising the age for seniors and drama. You will hardly find in the history of FS anything more dramatic than what we had in Russian ladies this season. And we did not need any age raising for that. Just saying, well, maybe Plushy vs. Yagudin or Kerrigan vs. Harding. But it was long time ago - many of current GS posters weren't even born. The rising number of viewers on youtube in general and full stands in Russia in particular support the view that there are different kinds of emotional attachment than just following the same skater for many years.

I know that the parallels may be far-fetched but isn't Kurt Kobein who died at 27 still a cult personality? The same is true about arguably the most popular Russian rock musician of all times Viktor Tsoi who died at 28. In one of his songs there were the words: "The destiny loves those who live to different laws and whose fate is to die young".

On a different note, my usual appreciation to all those who give thumbs ups. Never in my life did I receive so many likes. It keeps my motivation to stay, my emotional attachment even without a long-term drama. In particular, thank you:

Antoine for my 9999th thumbs up
DSQ for my 10000th thumbs up
xcrunningstar for my 10001th thums up!
 

[email protected]

Medalist
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
I think you make a great point and it makes me think a solution to the lack of longevity might be seen in changing the age limits but in changing the the value of elements?

A bit more focus of steps, turns and spins and slightly less on jumps might do to singles what we see in ice dance where experience is more valuable usually.

Ultimately I like jumps, they’re exciting, but it does seem they’re easier the younger you are.

I am totally against this particular one. We saw this year how easily step levels can be manipulated. Trusova had almost full range of levels (excluding level 1) for her steps that visually looked identical. And for me personally the further singles are from dance - the better.
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
I am totally against this particular one. We saw this year how easily step levels can be manipulated. Trusova had almost full range of levels (excluding level 1) for her steps that visually looked identical. And for me personally the further singles are from dance - the better.

Agreed. How the ice dance is evaluated is like a black hole to me and from the reactions to the scores at numerous FS events I would say I'm definitely not alone. And with the levels of step sequences it is often similar.
 

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
Agreed. How the ice dance is evaluated is like a black hole to me and from the reactions to the scores at numerous FS events I would say I'm definitely not alone. And with he levels of step sequences it is often similar.

Dance is a black hole to me too, but I am not looking at dance as a sporting event. It's rather an artistic experience for me and it has always been this way. I don't understand why some teams win over the rest, to me it's just vague and subjective experience of watching somebody dance. A combination of music, choreography, physical beauty, magic of femininity vs masculinity, connection with the audience. It's all intuitive to me.

And I agree singles should be opposite to that and should be measurable by the audience. Theoretically I should be OK with kids among adults, however, watching the body abuse and engineering of kid frankensteins, I start to be strongly against it. And the only way out if is, unfortunately, raising the age limit. If you think of other and better ways to stop this abuse I am all for it.
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 14, 2007
Country
United-States
I'm genuinely conflicted on age limits. While I think it's good for the sport to have champions who can remain competitive for more than two years, at the end of the day you want to know that the skaters who win the biggest titles are, in fact, the best in the world at that time. I felt that a potential Olympic champion stayed home in 2006 because she was too young and it took a bit of excitement out of the event for me.

What would change my mind is if the harder jumps we're seeing are truly detrimental to a skater's long term health. Injuries played a contributing, if not primary, part of ending the careers of most Olympic and World champions in recent memory, and we don't really know the extent to which these former skaters struggle with pain on a day-to-day basis. If Sasha, Anna, Kamila, or Alysa end up substantially worse off than those doing just triples, the ISU should probably reexamine not only age limits but maybe some sort of limits on technical elements.

But the problem is right now they are a science experiment. You have already stated that “injuries played a contributing, if not primary, part of ending the careers of most Olympic and World Champions in recent memory.” Isn’t that enough? Do we have to wait and see if the current crop is crippled by 20?
 

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
I don’t really like drinking coffee from disposable cups. When it is poured into a porcelain cup, the taste is completely different. Similarly, I don’t like one-time champions.

I'm merely talking about how to make figure skating more compelling to casual fans. Casual fans tend to want drama and good stories so they can get behind an athlete and root for them. If a athlete is only around for one season or two then it is hard for audiences to really connect with them and be invested in their journey.

Oh, really? If we talk about popularity and recognition - then how you explain this:
Ladies Fan-Fest forum. Carolina Kostner - epitome of longevity, popularity and name recognition - having the thread from 2012 year.
https://goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?39314-Carolina-Kostner

30 pages of discussions only

"Disposable cup" Trusova just for couple of years - 119 pages.
"Disposable cup" Kostornaia - 197 pages
"Disposable cup" Shcherbakova - 136 pages

What's going on? Someone is lying to us? :confused:

Ok, what about notion of contributing to and helping raising popularity of fs by long-term stars such as Kostner or Fernandez? Without doubt, seeing their many years success, thousands of children among all Europe should yearn to watch skating and to learn to skate - and European figure skating should prosper as the result? What, no? There is decline and stagnation instead?

Again, what's going on? Maybe implanted narration about importance of long term stars is, in fact, far from reality? Maybe, in reality, people (not vocal minority of forum elitists but casual masses) finds them boring to watch and prefer many young stars with difficult jumps instead of one old star with the same content for many years? :scratch3:

Even if we take Russia for example - even in Plushenko times figure skating popularity was many times lower that it is now, in time of "disposable cups". How many people watched RusNat then - in time of Russian long term stars? There were empty tribunes everywhere. No, you can say what you want - but I have strong feeling of insincerity from Arutyunyan - there is huge disconnection between what he says and reality :rolleye:
It will be a shame if ISU will succumb to bunch of silver-tongued orators instead of carefully examining statistics themselves. Else they risk to bury the budding dawn of new era.
 

lpt

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 23, 2019
Theoretically I should be OK with kids among adults, however, watching the body abuse and engineering of kid frankensteins, I start to be strongly against it. And the only way out if is, unfortunately, raising the age limit. If you think of other and better ways to stop this abuse I am all for it.
Trying to damage young stars career's by delaying their participation in the most important and profitable competitions is a real abuse.
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
Dance is a black hole to me too, but I am not looking at dance as a sporting event. It's rather an artistic experience for me and it has always been this way. I don't understand why some teams win over the rest, to me it's just vague and subjective experience of watching somebody dance. A combination of music, choreography, physical beauty, magic of femininity vs masculinity, connection with the audience. It's all intuitive to me.

And I agree singles should be opposite to that and should be measurable by the audience. Theoretically I should be OK with kids among adults, however, watching the body abuse and engineering of kid frankensteins, I start to be strongly against it. And the only way out if is, unfortunately, raising the age limit. If you think of other and better ways to stop this abuse I am all for it.

In case I would see "the body abuse and engineering of kid frankensteins", I would be against it. The thing is I don't see it, so I don't know what should be stopped. And even if there would be truly such thing, the raising of the age limits would not be a magic stick. The question here is: "Are contemporary technical elements dangerous for girls, boys and extraterrestrials more than acceptable risk (because there is always some danger in sport) or not?" We see many injured skaters who do not jump ultra-c elements at all or who are "mature" to everybody's satisfaction. So where lies the border between acceptable risk and irresponsible hazard? Is it in the number of rotations, is it in the age of skaters? So far I did not see any satisfying answer from those who wish to take some restrictions, the only thing is their feeling. And I don't want to make serious changes because someone's fellings (or because they don't like jumps or because they are interested in "developed bodies").
 

gotoschool

Medalist
Joined
Mar 5, 2014
But, even if we assume that entertainment of casual viewers is what should rule this sport after all. Did Raf watched Canadian Nationals, I wonder? Nah, I bet he never intended to in the first place :biggrin: What I mean is that it's hard to imagine more boring spectacle than it was. Despite that it's epitome of Raf ideals and what he wants to turn ladies figure skating into :rolleye: Majority of participants are 18+ y.o. or have true senior ladies bodies. And what an eye candy they presented to true ladies skating connosieurs there! Constant falls and pops, bland programs and zero interpretation, 3T+2T combos as pinnacle of technical difficulty, 63+ top score and almost empty tribunes.. ah, what a treat! :sarcasm:

Eteri's current skaters, Anna, Alena and Sasha have delivered many fine performances, but to me the biggest issue is their preferential scoring compared to the closest challengers more than the age issue. However, the post using Canadian Nationals as a catch all for 17+ age performance is totally erroneous. First, it is just a gratuitous putdown of Canadian skaters by looking at the 17+ age category with the narrowest focus possible of just one national competition ignoring the fine performances like the ones given recently by Katelyn Osmond at Worlds 2018. In addition, Rika is 17 years old and landed more triple axels in the NHK than Alena did. Rika in her "old age" also has stunning artistry and step sequences that have developed over the years though in the scoring it isn't rewarded this way. Many prefer Evgenia's performances more now than when she was 15 or 16 and to be honest I am more impressed with Alina's skating now than last year or the year before though she is missing her jumps more. And Mao, Yuna, Carolina, Kaori and Satoko have all given their best performances when they were 17 years or older. Midori Ito landed her first triple axel at worlds at 19 years old with great skating skills and fine flexibility in her spins for other skaters at the time. Chen Lu likewise gave what many consider to be one of the finest overall skates at the age of 19 at Worlds 1996. Maria Butyrskaya and Irina Slutskaya all gave their best performances when they were 17 or over and most feel the same about Michelle Kwan. Make a playlist of all the best performances of these skaters and place them on youtube and include Shizuka Arakawa and many other women and see how allegedly "bored" people would be by them. In fact, the reaction would be completely the opposite and draws on a much wider range of skaters 17 years or more from more nations across a much wider range of time.
 

Ella5555

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 14, 2018
Counting the number of pages on a Golden Skate FanFest, which includes contributors that’s are mainly made up of a relatively small group of people who repeatedly post, is not an accurate indication of the overall popularity of a particular skater outside this forum, especially since Carolina’s height of popularity was before social media (and, in particular, the Golden Skate forum) really took off. By that standard, skaters such as Katarina Witt or Brian Boitano (among many others) were extremely unpopular. Also, a single star from Italy or Spain may not translate to popularity in Europe overall nor does the increased popularity of figure skating in Russia translate to an increased popularity worldwide. In any case, I think the key issue is the long-term health of a young skater (male or female) - not the popularity of a particular skater. This is not a recent agenda of Rafael Arutunian’s. He has been saying this for years. In fact, he did not want Nathan Chen to turn senior until he was 18. It was Nathan himself who decided to skate as a senior at 17.
 

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
Counting the number of pages on a Golden Skate FanFest, which includes contributors that’s are mainly made up of a relatively small group of people who repeatedly post, is not an accurate indication of the overall popularity of a particular skater outside this forum, especially since Carolina’s height of popularity was before social media (and, in particular, the Golden Skate forum) really took off. By that standard, skaters such as Katarina Witt or Brian Boitano (among many others) were extremely unpopular.
I would agree with you to a degree.. if the difference in number of posts wasn't so **** big. Shcherbakova for couple of years is 4+ times more popular than Kostner for 8 years, really? 0_0 It's international forum, not Russian one, you know. The majority of users here are not Russians either - just look at the users flags. Kostner was quite actual skater between at least 2012-2016 years (I remind you - her thread was created in 2012). I believe she had her best performances during Oly2014 too. Still, if one looks at this - one can think that Kostner is just not interesting for fs fans at all -and never was. Despite usual narration how great she is you can always hear from everywhere and everyone.
I remind you - the initial point by raising age proponents was that mature stars is what pushes fs on popularity front and young stars domination presumably should diminish that popularity. And real life clearly contradicts it. It's not even important by what margin young ones are more popular - what matters is that they are popular, and veterans - not so much. In ladies, that is.
In any case, I think the key issue is the long-term health of a young skater (male or female) - not the popularity of a particular skater.
And I am pretty tired of repeating again and again that long careers in sport is exact opposite of health. The longer one competes - the worse one's health becomes. It's that simple. And any concern about health directly contradicts raising the age narration. I am really surprised how people just don't want to see it.

P.S.: I am not bashing Kostner here btw - I apologize for her true fans if my analysis offends them. She is just an example - it's not my fault that she is always the trump card in a hands of "young upstarts" naysayers.
 

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
Eteri's current skaters, Anna, Alena and Sasha have delivered many fine performances, but to me the biggest issue is their preferential scoring compared to the closest challengers more than the age issue. However, the post using Canadian Nationals as a catch all for 17+ age performance is totally erroneous. First, it is just a gratuitous putdown of Canadian skaters by looking at the 17+ age category with the narrowest focus possible of just one national competition ignoring the fine performances like the ones given recently by Katelyn Osmond at Worlds 2018. In addition, Rika is 17 years old and landed more triple axels in the NHK than Alena did. Rika in her "old age" also has stunning artistry and step sequences that have developed over the years though in the scoring it isn't rewarded this way. Many prefer Evgenia's performances more now than when she was 15 or 16 and to be honest I am more impressed with Alina's skating now than last year or the year before though she is missing her jumps more. And Mao, Yuna, Carolina, Kaori and Satoko have all given their best performances when they were 17 years or older. Midori Ito landed her first triple axel at worlds at 19 years old with great skating skills and fine flexibility in her spins for other skaters at the time. Chen Lu likewise gave what many consider to be one of the finest overall skates at the age of 19 at Worlds 1996. Maria Butyrskaya and Irina Slutskaya all gave their best performances when they were 17 or over and most feel the same about Michelle Kwan. Make a playlist of all the best performances of these skaters and place them on youtube and include Shizuka Arakawa and many other women and see how allegedly "bored" people would be by them. In fact, the reaction would be completely the opposite and draws on a much wider range of skaters 17 years or more from more nations across a much wider range of time.
And again usual heaps of unfounded claims which completely contradicts what real live shows (in regards to popularity). Look, noone cared about Slutskaya and Butyrskaya even in their prime time. The people en masse then just didn't care about figure skating at all - maybe heared something about Plushenko - that's it. Osmond's popularity internationally (not in Canada) is rather modest. In Japan, the most fs loving country, where they love to worship foreign skaters - almost noone knows who Osmond is. Medvedeva's popularity was at its peak when she was 16-17 y.o. - not now, when she became "mature enough".
Ok, nevertheless - I admit that there were and there are quite a few "mature" stars worthy attention. That thing is - we are talking about changing the global rule. The rule that affects all skaters, in all disciplines. Not for the sake of "a few" skaters - for the sake of all. Therefore - what should matters here - is global statistics. If we look at that - if we look at typical 17+ year skater performance en masse - it will be bad, full of mistakes and weak content (it's not only Canadian ladies - European ladies, American ladies, Japanese ladies - except couple of top ones - are the same). Which, in turn, raises the question - if we want to raise fs popularity - why we should enforce the age with the most prevalent bad performances? Isn't that counterproductive and will have opposite effect in regards to popularity? Simple logic, you know.
 

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
In case I would see "the body abuse and engineering of kid frankensteins", I would be against it. The thing is I don't see it, so I don't know what should be stopped.

The disturbing and unhealthy disparity between actual and apparent ages of female skaters. When disparity goes over five years and becomes a norm then something is wrong. And for some, like Elizabet, it's even reaching ten. Is it all right?
 
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