Lutz, flutz, flip or lip | Golden Skate

Lutz, flutz, flip or lip

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
Interesting article about Lutz and Flip, all from Russian coaches but with different opinions about technique, what would be the best thing what to do, etc.:

https://fs-gossips.com/there-are-very-few-skaters-who-jump-lutz-and-flip-equally-perfect/.

It's exerpt from Russian figure skating magazine - which omits very important preface and the most interesting piece: what Lakernik said. There were lots info.. among many things he mentioned is that there were many years talks in deeps of ISU about replacing lutz and flip with "flutz" as the new jump - i.e. any lutz/flip without checking its edge at all and permitting to jump it 4 times. Because 99% of skaters change the edge before leaving the ice to flat (on triples and quads) in any case. As I understood - it was hinted that RusFed received the answer about Zagitova judging in Grenoble already - justifying it just like that - and they can't say anything against it formally - because there isn't strict rule about how edge should be determined exactly. So Lakernik complained that part of tech specialists have varying view on that matter (as I understand - ones thinks that the edge should be determined just before or during picking moment only, others - during the whole takeoff process). And, as a result, like Mishin said - we can see wrong/flat edges mostly in nontop skaters protocols while those with reputation avoids edges scrutiny. Which turns judging in even more inconsistent mess that it was before. On other hand if we will be forcing the rule in a strict way - MAJORITY of skaters ALWAYS will have at least flat edge sign - and it can't be fixed for many of them even in theory due to peculiarities of their foot physiology. So Lakernik promised that this question will be discussed again in detail inside technical commitee or in future congress.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Thanks for the post.

It was interesting to me that Michin is on board with combining the Lutz and flip into one jump for scoring purposes. This is not a bad solution, in my opinion.

I also think that there is merit in requiring a particular entry (such as three turns, etc.) as part of the definition of the jump. This would alleviate the problem of putting everything on whether the edge is 89 degrees outside or 90 degrees at the instant of take-off. (Or 91 degrees. These three cases get full value, !, or "e" respectively regardless of any other other consideration.)
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
... i.e. any lutz/flip without checking its edge at all and permitting to jump it 4 times.

Are you sure about that part?

It would make sense if the new jump could be repeated only twice, once in combination, just like all the other jumps. (For instance, under the present rules you can do a toe-loop and then a toe wally. No one cares about the edge, but the two repetitions count as the same jump for scoring.)

I remeber the discussions by the ISU technical committee two years ago. At that time they decided to tweak the rules about unclear edges, etc., with a promise to investigate the possibility of changing to a strict "outside edge = Lutz, inside edge = flip" definition in time for the next Olympic cycle starting in 2022. (I don't think that they will, however.)
 
Last edited:

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
Are you sure about that part?

It would make sense if the new jump could be repeated only twice, once in combination, just like all the other jumps.

Ah, sorry, I've just checked - he said about two times only :biggrin: I said about 4 times because I thought it would reduce number of possible jumps - if they intends to abandon two old jumps (lutz and flip) and introduce only one instead. Maybe I didn't understand him right - here is original source (in Russian): https://www.fsrussia.ru/files/mfk_magazine/wfk_20_2019.pdf
 

ladyjane

Medalist
Joined
Jun 26, 2012
Country
Netherlands
It's exerpt from Russian figure skating magazine - which omits very important preface and the most interesting piece: what Lakernik said. There were lots info.. among many things he mentioned is that there were many years talks in deeps of ISU about replacing lutz and flip with "flutz" as the new jump - i.e. any lutz/flip without checking its edge at all and permitting to jump it 4 times. Because 99% of skaters change the edge before leaving the ice to flat (on triples and quads) in any case. As I understood - it was hinted that RusFed received the answer about Zagitova judging in Grenoble already - justifying it just like that - and they can't say anything against it formally - because there isn't strict rule about how edge should be determined exactly. So Lakernik complained that part of tech specialists have varying view on that matter (as I understand - ones thinks that the edge should be determined just before or during picking moment only, others - during the whole takeoff process). And, as a result, like Mishin said - we can see wrong/flat edges mostly in nontop skaters protocols while those with reputation avoids edges scrutiny. Which turns judging in even more inconsistent mess that it was before. On other hand if we will be forcing the rule in a strict way - MAJORITY of skaters ALWAYS will have at least flat edge sign - and it can't be fixed for many of them even in theory due to peculiarities of their foot physiology. So Lakernik promised that this question will be discussed again in detail inside technical commitee or in future congress.

Thank you Elucidus. I just saw (and copied) the link to the English piece, not what the Russian Skating Magazine had put forward. I'm with Mathman by the way, and was just surprised to see the difference in approaches by the coaches. Can't see the difference between the two jumps myself (but then, I'm just a watcher and although I do know the difference between an out- or an inside edge, I generally don't see it on screen, tv or let alone live), and am always surprised by the fanaticism some people handle this, I thought it was interesting how coaches looked at it. I'm also a skater (adult, pleased to even manage a flip or loop) but still don't see it. I suppose I'm with Mishin on this score....but then I'm an admirer of him in any case.
 

Lzbee

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 25, 2016
This is a terrible idea. We shouldn't get rid of the requirement for correct edges just because most skaters can't do both. And this time I can say, it is literally the definition of a Lutz and a flip. What's so terrible about everyone having calls on their protocols anyway? The coaches have basically admitted that the top skaters get a free pass on everything so that they can have a clean protocol whereas everyone else is judged normally. And they've admitted that their judges are badly trained and can't tell wrong edges. Just standardise it like underrotations were.

The ladies this would affect the most are Rika and Sasha since Liza has been getting calls on her flip this season.

If we had to go this way, what I wouldn't mind is if flip and Lutz were given the same value but still judged on edges. So if you say you're going to do a Lutz then make sure you're doing a correct Lutz and similarly with a flip. This means the skaters that can do both correctly are still awarded for that since they can do both jumps and not get called whereas others would get an edge call or have to drop one. It also means that skaters aren't all scrambling to do a Lutz even if it's not correct because it's got the highest value.

I'm just very suspicious of this as I remember reading a Russian skater saying that she was only taught that a flip and Lutz had different entries so didn't understand why she was getting called until she moved to a new coach. I think it was Alisa Lozko?
 
Last edited:

tafattsbarn

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 31, 2018
Combining the Lutz and Flip into one jump is an awful idea.

So instead of making sure skaters understand the differences and their weaknesses with technique we should just sweep it under the rug and punish skaters that can do both (including those that worked very hard to correct one of the jumps)? Ignoring a problem won't make it go away, they should start calling these things instead so that skaters can get that it is wrong technique and will be incentivized to try and fix it (and coaches will try to teach a more correct jumping technique from the start).
 

lzxnl

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
Combining the Lutz and Flip into one jump is an awful idea.

So instead of making sure skaters understand the differences and their weaknesses with technique we should just sweep it under the rug and punish skaters that can do both (including those that worked very hard to correct one of the jumps)? Ignoring a problem won't make it go away, they should start calling these things instead so that skaters can get that it is wrong technique and will be incentivized to try and fix it (and coaches will try to teach a more correct jumping technique from the start).

Except it's literally not called for some skaters. Lutz edges are a perennial issue in the current judging. Scherbakova comes to mind; she has a lot of flat edge lutzes.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I think combining them into one jump is a terrible idea.

At the end of the day, I also disagree with BV reductions for flutzing/lipping, and think it should really be a GOE deduction. Getting into the takeoff edge is important for some but for me it's nitpicky. Really the mechanics/intention of the jump should be what's most important, like a lutz is also defined by its counter rotation of the body and not just the outside edge. A flip is counter-clockwise (for a typical skater) rotation off the left foot (or via a mohawk) before picking in and taking off.

Great technique should be taught and rewarded, but poor technique shouldn't be absolutely hammered. Imagine if we said jumps must have difficult transitions into them or not be competed at all -- some skaters simply aren't capable of close-to-perfect or perfect technique, and that's okay. They shouldn't score as high as others with stronger jumps, but the lack of perfect technique shouldn't take them out of the competition because of substantial deductions associated with it.

I'm actually okay with the current rules (although the "e" deduction is still rather harsh, especially if it's called on triples and quads), although there's still a lot of subjectivity that could make or break a skater's BV depending on what call the tech specialist makes. And of course, the inevitable arguments after every competition about how so-and-so should in-poster-X's-own-opinion (which of course, is invariably biased) be deducted because of a flutz/lip or got hammered unnecessarily with an edge call.

Interesting the flip and lutz throw are viewed/scored the same. And pairs skaters/judges never have to worry about assessing the entry edge. It's purely defined by the lead entry foot (in the direction of rotation) going backwards and the pick on the other foot vaulting them up. I guess that's why we never see a pair try a 3FTh and a 3ZTh in their FS. :biggrin:
 

tafattsbarn

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 31, 2018
Except it's literally not called for some skaters. Lutz edges are a perennial issue in the current judging. Scherbakova comes to mind; she has a lot of flat edge lutzes.

Exactly, so maybe that's the problem? A lot of people seem to want to put a bandaid over a broken bone, and it's not making the sport any better.

Fair judging with strict calls is the only way to improve things in my opinion, not som deluge that combining the jumps and taking away the technique that makes figure skating into figure skting is going to solve any kind of problem. That was my point, fix the judging and with time you will se better technique as it will become paramount to winning.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Exactly, so maybe that's the problem? A lot of people seem to want to put a bandaid over a broken bone, and it's not making the sport any better.

Fair judging with strict calls is the only way to improve things in my opinion, not som deluge that combining the jumps and taking away the technique that makes figure skating into figure skting is going to solve any kind of problem. That was my point, fix the judging and with time you will se better technique as it will become paramount to winning.

I don’t think we will see better technique across the board... if anything we will see skaters dumbing their content and avoiding jumps because it isn’t worth attempting them if they’re gonna get nailed with deductions at the whims of a tech panel.

Rewarding better technique with accurate GOE is a better way to do it. It motivates skaters to go for harder jumps but truly rewards them if they clean up their technique.

A skater won’t attempt a jump if they don’t think they could do it successfully at least enough to score as much as an easier alternative jump.

Deductions are a fine balance. Eg when a skater would drop down from a 3-3 BV to a 3-2 BV if the second jump was UR it wasn’t worth it. But once they gave some points for a UR jump you saw more 3-3 jumps being learned and attempted because the risk was worthwhile.
 

Lzbee

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 25, 2016
I don’t think we will see better technique across the board... if anything we will see skaters dumbing their content and avoiding jumps because it isn’t worth attempting them if they’re gonna get nailed with deductions at the whims of a tech panel.

Rewarding better technique with accurate GOE is a better way to do it. It motivates skaters to go for harder jumps but truly rewards them if they clean up their technique.

A skater won’t attempt a jump if they don’t think they could do it successfully at least enough to score as much as an easier alternative jump.

Deductions are a fine balance. Eg when a skater would drop down from a 3-3 BV to a 3-2 BV if the second jump was UR it wasn’t worth it. But once they gave some points for a UR jump you saw more 3-3 jumps being learned and attempted because the risk was worthwhile.

You say that it will just result in dumbed down content but a Lze isn't going to change to a Lz by doing less rotations? Unless you mean skaters just won't attempt lutzes (or flips) at all, in which case I'd say that that's already happening. There were a lot of skates at Euros today without lutzes.

Also, I disagree that goe should be the way to go since it's less transparent. It's already used to evaluate a lot of bullet points that adding edges into it would muddy it even more on why exactly a jump got a certain goe. The explicit edge calls right now tell skaters exactly what was wrong and how bad (! vs e).
 
Top