2020 U.S. Nationals: Men's Free Skate

WeakAnkles · Jan 27, 2020

If we were not in The Quad Era, Jason Brown would be heralded as one of the All Time Greats.

I don't know how anyone could watch a program like this performance of Schindler's List and not 117% agree that there is far far more to figure skating than jumps.

karne · Jan 27, 2020

WeakAnkles said:
If we were not in The Quad Era, Jason Brown would be heralded as one of the All Time Greats.

I don't know how anyone could watch a program like this performance of Schindler's List and not 117% agree that there is far far more to figure skating than jumps.

I think an argument could actually be made. And I think, when he lands the quad, the rest of the world will stop sleeping on him.

Mathman · Jan 27, 2020

To me the issue is one of honesty. If you do a quad Lutz you should get 11.5 points. Why? Because you did a quad Lutz.

If you do transitional elements of exceptional variety and difficulty throughout the program, then you should get 9s in that component. If you don't, then you shouldn't. I accept that different judges will react differently to the more subjective categories such as choreography and interpretation (but they don't -- on the contrary, they march in lock step) -- still, the skater should not get 9s in these categories unless there is something about the performance that sets his program apart esthetically.

readernick · Jan 27, 2020

Mathman said:
To me the issue is one of honesty. If you do a quad Lutz you should get 11.5 points. Why? Because you did a quad Lutz.

If you do transitional elements of exceptional variety and difficulty throughout the program, then you should get 9s in that component. If you don't, then you shouldn't. I accept that different judges will react differently to the more subjective categories such as choreography and interpretation (but they don't -- on the contrary, they march in lock step) -- still, the skater should not get 9s in these categories unless there is something about the performance that presentation that sets his program apart esthetically.

100% agree. Transitions and SS can actually be assessed quite objectively. The other categories are more subjective but should be judged fairly according to the criteria laid out by the ISU. In reality, technical consistency, reputation, and BV are what judges measure when they give PCS. They aren't judging based on the criteria given for PCS by the ISU in most situation.
It is frustrating because you rarely see a skater with remarkable desparity between their TES and PCS marks. Some skaters should have TES of 112 and PCS of 50.. other skaters should receive 50 TES and PCS of 98... but that never happens. I do think seperate judging panels for the TES and PCS would lead to better scoring but I imagine it would be expensive and difficult to arrange for competition organizers.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Jan 27, 2020

WeakAnkles said:
If we were not in The Quad Era, Jason Brown would be heralded as one of the All Time Greats.

I don't know how anyone could watch a program like this performance of Schindler's List and not 117% agree that there is far far more to figure skating than jumps.

I will also say, after seeing the fan cam of Jason's performance, that was some of his most sublime jumping ever... so much flow on his landings and confidence.

It really is a bit heartbreaking from a competitiveness standpoint that Jason has no quad, but as you said, he serves as a reminder that skating (as in, the art of figure skating, rather than the competitive sport of figure skating) is more than jumps.

It's such a toss-up this year honestly at Worlds for the bronze... I actually think Jason has a shot at the bronze, if he skates like he did here because the other guys (Aymoz/Aliev/Jin/Uno) have all had their inconsistencies.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Jan 27, 2020

Mathman said:
Nice competition, and I hardly ever say anything about judging.

But ... can someone explain to me why Nathan Chen's program got as high PCSs as Jason Brown's?

OK, never mind Brown. In what way were Chen's TR, Performance, Composition and Interpretation better than Tomoki Hiwatashi's? (I don't pretend to an opinion about Skating Skills.)

In TR, what did Nathan do in the first half of the program besides set up for three quads and a triple Axel? Compared to Hiwatashi, did Nathan do anything out of the ordinary in terms of Choreography or Performance that he should get higher than 9.5 in every PCS category to Hiwatashi's scores in the 8s? Did the judges feel that Hiwatashi's skate was -- oh no! the curse of doom -- "juniorish," while Chens' was "World-Champion-ish?"

Chen deserved the win, obviously, despite a couple of scratchy saved landings. He hit on 4 out of 5 quads, so nothing else needs to be scored. Still, try as I might I just cannot achieve an understanding of what the judges are measuring when they contemplate the program components.

Tomoki's skate had some wonderful highlights, but the composition was a bit of a mess, IMO. It was like it was trying too hard to show off his strengths at the wrong moments. I recall Johnny making a comment that I agreed with, to do with the program just being a little random with respect to the music (can't recall the exact words). Tomoki has nice lines, but there were a few too many high kicks and he looked a bit wild at points -- he was exciting though, and gave me some major Shawn Sawyer vibes (I mean, come on, a flexible left-footed showman!).

Chen's program has better editing in his program composition, and you can see he has more control and speed. He's not as flexible obviously as Tomoki (only Jason is, really), but his level of performance is more sophisticated. And of course, his difficulty is wayyy higher, so that amplifies the difficulty of having to execute transitions and choreography, and elevates the performance overall.

Jason is an extremely rare example of not needing quads but still delivering better impact in terms of performance. I thought his and Chen's PCS should have been reversed, however, the discrepancy of program difficulty was pretty apparent - which makes it easier to execute transitions and choreography (but that's tempered by the fact that the choreo is exceedingly difficult to make up for it). He still essentially tied Chen on PCS, with zero successful quads and just one attempt.... and if you think about it, not many skaters are capable of that. 96 PCS with zero quads is basically just a Jason thing now, which says a lot about the quality of his skating.

Basically, if Jason did the same program but had 3 quads in it, and did everything else the same, the PCS would be higher than Chen's because of the impact of the performance being elevated (harder content = more impressive = higher PE scores).

lariko · Jan 27, 2020

Petrushka as a character is supposed to be wild, slapstick and uncouth... while Stravinskii is considered a classic composer, his music was alternative and controversial at his times, and the character is not supposed to cut a classic ballet figure.

Farnaz · Jan 27, 2020

I watched only the last group of men and it was "time well spent" :agree2:

So many clean/cleanish programs all with different styles. US men are upping their game. I don't think it's all about Chen anymore, there are so many other names now.

Lamente Ariane · Jan 27, 2020

lariko said:
Petrushka as a character is supposed to be wild, slapstick and uncouth... while Stravinskii is considered a classic composer, his music was alternative and controversial at his times, and the character is not supposed to cut a classic ballet figure.

Agreed. It's like saying Rite of Spring is suited to more elegant choreography... the rioting audience of the time would've agreed but Nijinsky sure wouldn't have.

Mathman · Jan 27, 2020

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
And of course,[Nathan Chen's] difficulty is wayyy higher [than Tomoki Hiwatashi's], so that amplifies the difficulty of having to execute transitions and choreography, and elevates the performance overall....

[Jason Brown] essentially tied Chen on PCS, with zero successful quads and just one attempt....(harder content = more impressive = higher PE scores).

That's the part that is tricky, to me. Yes, it is hard to do a lot of transitions if your program is filled with quads. Still, is it right to pretend that a quadster did transitions that he didn't do, or to reason, "if he didn't do so many quads he would have done more transitions, so I will give him a higher TR score because of what he might have done"?

Same with choreography. That's a good point that the technical highlights add a wow factor to choreography, interpretation and performance -- but the skater already received the big points for the wow quads. For that matter, Hiwatashi's two WOW split jumps added a lot to the overall impact of his program. But it is not clear how this translates into the PCSs.

slider11 · Jan 27, 2020

Jason Brown...all the way! He is a magnificent skater!

oly2018 · Jan 27, 2020

Mathman said:
That's the part that is tricky, to me. Yes, it is hard to do a lot of transitions if your program is filled with quads. Still, is it right to pretend that a quadster did transitions that he didn't do, or to reason, "if he didn't do so many quads he would have done more transitions, so I will give him a higher TR score because of what he might have done"?

Same with choreography. That's a good point that the technical highlights add a wow factor to choreography, interpretation and performance -- but the skater already received the big points for the wow quads. For that matter, Hiwatashi's two WOW split jumps added a lot to the overall impact of his program. But it is not clear how this translates into the PCSs.

Nathan does have transitions. Maybe not the most flashy ones and not into every big jump, but they are there. I never understand when people say he doesn't. Yeah, he isn't doing a split jump into a quad toe, but neither is Jason or Tomoki. The rules don't outline exactly which transition warrants a high score for transitions. He even fought to keep transitions out of poorly landed jumps in this competition. Now, he does have a tendency to take transitions in and out of the programs depending on how he is feeling and that should be accounted for, but his jumps aren't devoid of transitions.

MarkinBerkeley · Jan 27, 2020

karne said:
I think an argument could actually be made. And I think, when he lands the quad, the rest of the world will stop sleeping on him.

I think Jason could make the World Podium even with no quads (maybe bronze), but a good Quad Toe (or two) would really help. 290+ without a quad is fantastic.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Jan 27, 2020

Mathman said:
That's the part that is tricky, to me. Yes, it is hard to do a lot of transitions if your program is filled with quads. Still, is it right to pretend that a quadster did transitions that he didn't do, or to reason, "if he didn't do so many quads he would have done more transitions, so I will give him a higher TR score because of what he might have done"?

Same with choreography. That's a good point that the technical highlights add a wow factor to choreography, interpretation and performance -- but the skater already received the big points for the wow quads. For that matter, Hiwatashi's two WOW split jumps added a lot to the overall impact of his program. But it is not clear how this translates into the PCSs.

It’s important to always consider that a transition isn’t just numbers/amount of transitions but also the quality and difficulty of them. Which is why a spread eagle into a 3A is a harder transition than a spread eagle into a 2A. And a falling leaf off a 4T is harder than a falling leaf off a 3T. Because to properly execute the transition you need more speed/control/focus in spite of the greater inherent risk. Hence why transitions into more difficult jumps present greater risk (loss of balance/speed/momentum) and should attain higher TR than transitions into easier jumps. Same goes with choreo... if you’re doing a program of single jumps and the same choreo with quads, the latter is more impressive and should score higher on CH because it is more difficult not to mention harder elements tend to have a greater choreographic impact. There are examples where an easy “warmup” double axel can also be choreographicallu effective (like in Ashley’s moulin rouge or Brown’s Riverdance).

Mathman · Jan 27, 2020

oly2018 said:
Nathan does have transitions. Maybe not the most flashy ones and not into every big jump, but they are there. I never understand when people say he doesn't.

Certainly he has transitions. The question is, does he have the finest, the most difficult, intricate and varied transitions of any man who ever skated, deserving of the very highest marks in this category, 9.5+? Wouldn't 8.5 (very good) describe his transitions better?

Mathman · Jan 27, 2020

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
It’s important to always consider that a transition isn’t just numbers/amount of transitions but also the quality and difficulty of them. Which is why a spread eagle into a 3A is a harder transition than a spread eagle into a 2A. And a falling leaf off a 4T is harder than a falling leaf off a 3T.

To me, your argument would be stronger if Nathan actually did a spread eagle into a 3A or a falling leaf off a 4T (or indeed either one in the whole program).

Maybe I am going blind, but in all of his jumping passes in this performance, does either the entry or the exit have any feature except a few crosscuts and a basic turn or two?

https://twitter.com/USFigureSkating/status/1221592597094916097

crazydreamer · Jan 27, 2020

I’m sorry but I am living on a different planet from anyone who thinks Tomoki has better PCS than Nathan. Jason, sure, but even that disparity is not wide.

oatmella · Jan 27, 2020

Mathman said:
To me, your argument would be stronger if Nathan actually did a spread eagle into a 3A or a falling leaf off a 4T (or indeed either one in the whole program).

Maybe I am going blind, but in all of his jumping passes in this performance, does either the entry or the exit have any feature except a few crosscuts and a basic turn or two?

https://twitter.com/USFigureSkating/status/1221592597094916097

He did a spread eagle into 4T1Eu3S.

Mathman · Jan 27, 2020

oatmella said:
He did a spread eagle into 4T1Eu3S.

Why, so he did, and a nice one, too. That little rascal! I guess he is so smooth he just slips these things right by me.

treblemakerem · Jan 27, 2020

crazydreamer said:
I’m sorry but I am living on a different planet from anyone who thinks Tomoki has better PCS than Nathan. Jason, sure, but even that disparity is not wide.

Personally I love Tomoki and think he should score very high in transitions but Nathan is light years ahead of him in ss. Unfortunately it seems that PCS is judged only as a clump rather than the individual categories. IMO Jason should be getting the highest scores in the world in PCS. I think Nathan deserves a very high score as well but not as high as Jason. Seems unfair his score is so maxed out.

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