2020 Four Continents: Men's Free Skate | Page 2 | Golden Skate

2020 Four Continents: Men's Free Skate

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Final Flight
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
I care that Brown doesn’t jump quads by this simple reason. To me, a laywoman that I am, Brown, Cha, Boyang, Tomono, Kagiyama and Hiwatashi all skate prettily/smoothly and with a good speed, all spin fast.

When I open their scoring sheets, I can clearly see Cha’s 4 under-rotations and I saw Boyang pop two quads while he skated (whereas Brown popped only one).

But when it comes to Tomono and Kagiyama I can’t distinguish what they did wrong and/or worse than Brown, and they both had more difficult technical content.

I care that Brown doesn’t jump a quad because his scores are an anomaly that I cannot explain away, so I have to take the result on its face value, and I have to trust that he does something that I cannot perceive.

And I don’t like not knowing. The other day someone posted a run down of all the elements that go into Chen’s skate showing how composite and complicated it was. If someone broke down Brown’s like that next to the other skaters’, it would helps me.

The difference between Brown and Tomono/Kagiyama is the GOE's and the PCS. Tomono had a few iffy jumps/landings throughout the program, and the quality of both Tomono/Kagiyama in general just isn't as high. Brown has some of the best spins and footwork in the world (or ever probably) and he very rarely loses levels on them. The transitions and his programs skating wise are insanely difficult all the way through (I especially love the transitions into his 3F in his short for example, but the transitions in the long are also gorgeous) and to add to this his jumps (although they are triples) are textbook and almost always perfect which warrants the extremely high (deservedly) GOE's he gets. On the PCS side, in my opinion he's the best skater in the world (some may not agree with this, even if you don't you have to admit he's wayyyy up there). the basic SS and the interpretation,difficulty and flow (there's other things I can't remember the words for) are so perfect that he gets extremely high (also deservedly) PCS. So basically, Brown wins by maximizing the points for what he does compared to the others.
 

ladyjane

Medalist
Joined
Jun 26, 2012
Country
Netherlands
I care that Brown doesn’t jump quads by this simple reason. To me, a laywoman that I am, Brown, Cha, Boyang, Tomono, Kagiyama and Hiwatashi all skate prettily/smoothly and with a good speed, all spin fast.

When I open their scoring sheets, I can clearly see Cha’s 4 under-rotations and I saw Boyang pop two quads while he skated (whereas Brown popped only one).

But when it comes to Tomono and Kagiyama I can’t distinguish what they did wrong and/or worse than Brown, and they both had more difficult technical content.

I care that Brown doesn’t jump a quad because his scores are an anomaly that I cannot explain away, so I have to take the result on its face value, and I have to trust that he does something that I cannot perceive.

And I don’t like not knowing. The other day someone posted a run down of all the elements that go into Chen’s skate showing how composite and complicated it was. If someone broke down Brown’s like that next to the other skaters’, it would helps me.

Tomono and Kagiyama did nothing wrong at all. With regard to PCS, I don't think it's a question mostly of right and wrong in any case. It's the remaining bit of Figure Skating scoring that is still a bit of a mystery after the 6.0 system was thrown in to the waste basket (and that was the system I grew up with, not a system pretending to be able to catch certain performance and interpretation skills mathematically), prone to political manipulation and reputation (though I don't think that was the case here so much, as lots of people have been calling for PCS being judged apart from the jumpcontent, and today they finally did) and I for one am pleased that in this particular case, the PCS score did not automatically follow the TES score. Usually you just see that a higher TES score, will automatically also lead to higher PCS - and there are some really notorious examples of that where a jumping bean got absurd high PCS, just because of good jumps. Of course when there's a fall it can be disruptive to the programme, and therefore also to PCS but I've also seen skaters fall but continue almost immediately, no disruption at all to the flow of the programme, and then still not just get a little lower on PCS (it is capped after all with a fall), but massively.

My remark about 'who cares about the quad?' wasn't really related to the points at all but to my own experience of his skating. It was the best programme of the day to me, not because of the absence/presence of a quad but because of the interpretation of the music, the maturity of the skating, the sheer emotion that Jason brought to the programme, while still integrating difficult elements. Much as I liked Kagiyama and Tomono (and I think I expressed my feelings on Tomono's score quite clearly whom I thought was undermarked in PCS because he's really good at interpreting the music and doing choreography), it was Jason who moved me emotionally and made me totally forget about such 'mundane' issues as points and spins because he drew me in with his skating and his interpretation. He brought something special to the ice. Figure Skating is still an artistic sport, and because of that not everything can be expressed mathematically. And I for one, am pleased about that. It's my main reason for enjoying this sport so much, in fact it's the only sport I really enjoy watching with or without 'anomalous' scores.

This of course is no help to you at all. I am just trying to explain why I made a certain remark in my review of the event, and this explanation - I know - wasn't an answer to your specific question. Sorry about that.
 

kmw227

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 5, 2019
Country
United-States
This was such a fun event to watch! Still kicking myself for deciding to sleep through the SP and missing all those clean skates but oh well, this made up for it! :laugh:

Great to see Yuzuru complete the grand slam! His short program was just perfection. Also, I like Ballade and Seimei as much as the next person, but I really hope he gets 2 new programs for next season. I'm ready for something new from him!

I've always liked Jason; he's never been one of my top favorites, but I still think he's great. But my gosh, that Schindler's List is a masterpiece. Completely captivating and SO stunning. He absolutely deserved the highest PCS of the night, no question.

I was so impressed by Yuma! What a little star he is. Not a huge fan of the free skate but those jumps!! :love: Cannot wait to watch him grow.

I've never paid much attention to Kazuki, but I would say I'm now a fan! He's a fantastic performer and his free skate was so fun to watch.

It's amazing how much Junhwan has improved since the Grand Prix, he completely turned his season around! I really hope he skates like this at worlds :pray:
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
The difference between Brown and Tomono/Kagiyama is the GOE's and the PCS. Tomono had a few iffy jumps/landings throughout the program, and the quality of both Tomono/Kagiyama in general just isn't as high. Brown has some of the best spins and footwork in the world (or ever probably) and he very rarely loses levels on them. The transitions and his programs skating wise are insanely difficult all the way through (I especially love the transitions into his 3F in his short for example, but the transitions in the long are also gorgeous) and to add to this his jumps (although they are triples) are textbook and almost always perfect which warrants the extremely high (deservedly) GOE's he gets. On the PCS side, in my opinion he's the best skater in the world (some may not agree with this, even if you don't you have to admit he's wayyyy up there). the basic SS and the interpretation,difficulty and flow (there's other things I can't remember the words for) are so perfect that he gets extremely high (also deservedly) PCS. So basically, Brown wins by maximizing the points for what he does compared to the others.

Kagiyama’s GoE for jumps are comparable range, but yes, I see now that Brown goes over 1 point on the spirals and spins, accumulating enough total to negate the popped jump. I find Grassl’s spin/spiral elements the most distinctive/unique in terms of how easy it is to pick up as to why the score had been awarded.

I wish they do the same for PCS they did for TES, showing the accumulation of the running total on all five components during the skate. Like, if the transition was really good, you’d see increase, if it is bad, you’d see a decrease. Maybe they all start at ten, and the mark gets adjusted in response to the skate, and one can see what judges reacted negatively and positively to.
 

MaiKatze

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
I wish they do the same for PCS they did for TES, showing the accumulation of the running total on all five components during the skate. Like, if the transition was really good, you’d see increase, if it is bad, you’d see a decrease. Maybe they all start at ten, and the mark gets adjusted in response to the skate, and one can see what judges reacted negatively and positively to.

They can't do that because the judges don't work that way in real time. They usually do the program component scoring of the skate AFTER the skate is over. I'd also find it hard to assign all PCS to an element, like a jump, because it's the entire skate that should be judged, the components include more abstract concepts like Interpretation of Music and Choreography, which is hard to judge if you haven't seen the entire thing. It's a little more complicated than giving out GOE's and isn't usually done at the same time. Unless one would assign a different set of judges, only for PCS and not for TES, but even then, how would that work? And that would probably lead to new problems.
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
They can't do that because the judges don't work that way in real time. They usually do the program component scoring of the skate AFTER the skate is over. I'd also find it hard to assign all PCS to an element, like a jump, because it's the entire skate that should be judged, the components include more abstract concepts like Interpretation of Music and Choreography, which is hard to judge if you haven't seen the entire thing. It's a little more complicated than giving out GOE's and isn't usually done at the same time. Unless one would assign a different set of judges, only for PCS and not for TES, but even then, how would that work? And that would probably lead to new problems.

Well, I understand that they judge after, but they had not seen other skaters skate at this point either, unless it is the last one. So, it is neither graded on the curve, nor there is a standard of comparison, nor it highlights to me was what spectacular and earned the medal/places for the countries next year. I just feel I need some sort of transparent way to know what the judges were thinking.

Maybe they could rank them on each of the 5 PCS elements only after everyone had skated to do the curve or something. It’s just too ambiguous a portion of the judging system the way it is now.
 

ancientpeas

The Notorious SEW
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
Nam needs to clean up his spins and footwork. He is giving away points he will need to get into the top 10 at worlds.

I thought Yuzu's SP was brilliant and beautiful and everything I want skating to be. Total package: Beautiful jumps, incredible artistry and his normal "all eyes on me" charisma. The long was less spectacular but I have faith in him and am hoping he will win worlds.

Jason is full quality. He might not have the quad but what he does do is beautiful and he earns his GOE. I would rather watch a quad less beautifully presented program than a sloppy, stumbling around artistically flat ordeal any day of the week. And no I won't apologize to those of you who only want quadsters to win. If those guys with the quads lay them down and skate decently in the other areas (spins, footwork) Jason will lose because of base value. Why is that fairer than Jason winning because he is noticeably more artistic than anyone here other than Yuzuru.

Yuma was a huge surprise. Very delightful and I wish him well a jr. Worlds. Huge battle with the young Russian men (Is Gogo going to jr. worlds?) I'm sure.

I loved Donovan. A total highlight and so charming and engaging. I hope he gets invited to some GP events.

Very superficial side note: To the costume makers who decided to make distracting openings in the backs of men's costumes.. please stop it.
 

MaiKatze

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Well, I understand that they judge after, but they had not seen other skaters skate at this point either, unless it is the last one. So, it is neither graded on the curve, nor there is a standard of comparison, nor it highlights to me was what spectacular and earned the medal/places for the countries next year. I just feel I need some sort of transparent way to know what the judges were thinking.

Maybe they could rank them on each of the 5 PCS elements only after everyone had skated to do the curve or something.


Figure skating is a judged sport and PCS is subjective, it will never not be.

You really think it would be a good idea if the judges wait until everyone has skated? Do you think they still remember specifics in PC about skater number 1 when they arrive at number 27? Do you think the audience would have the patience for that? That would kill any interest in the sport. Usually the judges know the skaters, they also watch practices and they know what to expect, they know the programs. Reputation does play a part here as well. Yuma Kagiyama is a junior skater and that also plays a part. He needs a few more senior outings and his PCS will rise.

This is off-topic, but here is an interesting video of how the judging works in real time. I was also at that competition and sat behind the judges, I could see how they work for Ice Dance, Pairs and Men, so I know this video is showing a genuine example.
 

Colonel Green

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2018
Country
Canada
Maybe they could rank them on each of the 5 PCS elements only after everyone had skated to do the curve or something.
The system is deliberately designed to avoid that sort of direct ranking, because they don't want the judges to be able to so directly stack the skaters. Corridor judging is already a problem, this would just make it worse.
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
The system is deliberately designed to avoid that sort of direct ranking, because they don't want the judges to be able to so directly stack the skaters. Corridor judging is already a problem, this would just make it worse.

Why is it a problem if you are comparing in the same category?
 

Colonel Green

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2018
Country
Canada
Why is it a problem if you are comparing in the same category?
Because figure skating already has a problem with judges having preconceived notions of where skaters "should" be based on reputation and politicking, and requiring them to directly rank the skaters would exacerbate that. Many features in the switch from the 6.0 to the IJS were specifically designed to try to minimize this (with...at best intermittent success).
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Figure skating is a judged sport and PCS is subjective, it will never not be.

You really think it would be a good idea if the judges wait until everyone has skated? Do you think they still remember specifics in PC about skater number 1 when they arrive at number 27? Do you think the audience would have the patience for that? That would kill any interest in the sport. Usually the judges know the skaters, they also watch practices and they know what to expect, they know the programs. Reputation does play a part here as well. Yuma Kagiyama is a junior skater and that also plays a part. He needs a few more senior outings and his PCS will rise.

This is off-topic, but here is an interesting video of how the judging works in real time. I was also at that competition and sat behind the judges, I could see how they work for Ice Dance, Pairs and Men, so I know this video is showing a genuine example.

Thanks for sharing that! It’s fascinating. I always thought the judges made notes and saw replays at the end but this makes more sense in terms of the live GOE.

Also important to note that judges can review and change their GOE.

I would bet that most judges start from a place of scoring an element higher but note iffy ones and upon review they adjust their score lower once they are able to note all the GOE reduction(s). Would be interesting to know how they are trained for scoring in real time and post performance replays.
 

lavender

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Happy for my only 2 favorites, Hanyu and Brown that are left in men's skating. I wish Brown didn't pop his quad and that Hanyu skated the way we all know he can.
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
Because figure skating already has a problem with judges having preconceived notions of where skaters "should" be based on reputation and politicking, and requiring them to directly rank the skaters would exacerbate that. Many features in the switch from the 6.0 to the IJS were specifically designed to try to minimize this (with...at best intermittent success).

I really love how TES works, but PCS is basically still the same, it seems. Oh, well, I will just reconcile myself with Brown taking bronze at worlds.
 

CoyoteChris

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 4, 2004
There were many great skates...great moments...as mentioned by others here .but the night went to Brown.
Mr. Hanyu is still the best male skater to have ever lived to this point IMHO. He can even win making mistakes....
But for one brief shining moment, JB showed that artistry matters....
Yes, some other skaters (no names please) there landed quads, technically...they landed them leaning far forward...not pretty...but high TESs.
Look at YH and JB's jump landings....and there were three other skaters there that had class and style....and you didnt just think you were at a jumping competition...
My only hope is that FourCCs comes back to the states some time...see you in San Jose and hopefully Vegas, Jason...I need another pic!
I only said one thing to you. "You are the most artistic mens skater I have ever seen..."
And one of the nicest people....
 

Tavi...

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
I really love how TES works, but PCS is basically still the same, it seems. Oh, well, I will just reconcile myself with Brown taking bronze at worlds.

Hmm. I think GOE as used is pretty much as subjective as PCS, don’t you?

That said, I think we all respond to different things in skaters/skating (just as we do in the rest of life), and I’m guessing that you may have a hard time reconciling yourself to Jason’s scores in part because you don’t particularly appreciate or respond to the things he does, so you focus on the negative things that catch your attention. Nothing wrong with that, it’s normal, and in fact, I notice this in myself a lot.

To give an example with GOE: I really hate it when skaters land jumps in a bent over position (ie with their backs almost parallel to the ice). When I see a jump like that, I automatically think, bad/ugly jump, undeserving of GOE. I don’t notice if there is anything good about the jump unless I remind myself to look for it - for example was there great speed in, excellent height, a difficult transition in, etc. If I do force myself to notice these things, I will probably still think the jump is ugly, but it can make it easier to understand why it got positive GOE. Just a thought. :)
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I really love how TES works, but PCS is basically still the same, it seems.
I think so, too. At least for presentation, choreography and interpretation, the judges are judging the skaters against a general standard formed by watching thousands of skaters performing thousands of programs year in and year out. The judges have expectations regarding what a 5.7 performance should look like, or an 8.75.

I don't see how it could be otherwise, really.
 
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bunnybarista

If I risk it all, could you break my fall?~
On the Ice
Joined
May 27, 2018
I am SO thrilled for Jason!! I'd originally stayed up to see Yuzuru (unfortunately not his greatest performance tonight, but still awesome that he finally won 4CC) and didn't expect Jason to be able to hold onto a medal spot... but Jason stole the show! So, so, so happy that he got the Silver medal, and the highest PCS score of the night! Absolutely deserved and super impressive to beat out all the quadsters. His artistry, musicality, and flexibility are out of this world! :love::hap10:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
To give an example with GOE: I really hate it when skaters land jumps in a bent over position (ie with their backs almost parallel to the ice). When I see a jump like that, I automatically think, bad/ugly jump, undeserving of GOE. I don’t notice if there is anything good about the jump unless I remind myself to look for it - for example was there great speed in, excellent height, a difficult transition in, etc. If I do force myself to notice these things, I will probably still think the jump is ugly, but it can make it easier to understand why it got positive GOE. Just a thought. :)

I think that the ISU has worked hard to make the GOEs as objective as possible. "hunched over, bad, ugly" is not one of the bullet points that is on the judges' list, so in pronciple that should not play a role in GOE.

To tell the truth, I would like it better if GOE were more subjective. It is, after all, a measure of quality. I would be perfectly fine with it if the criteria were: Meh = 0 GOE, Not bad = 1 GOE, That's better = 2 GOE, Good for you = 4 GOE and Wow! = 5 GOE.

As for the objection that, "who decides whether a jump is just OK or wow? -- the anser is simple: the judges do (that's why we call them judges and not bean-counters).
 
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