2020 Four Continents: Men's Free Skate

lariko · Feb 9, 2020

The only time I had a problem with GoE was when I saw a combo (a gorgeous combo) get in excess of 5 points GOE—because of the pro-ratio to the BV total. Once someone explained the pro-ratio to me, I understood how it was possible.

The jumps that have high GOE usually are noticeably spectacular, either in height, speed of rotation or the softness of landing/glide afterward. I love jumps and I love energy/speed/daring, and, for the most part, I see those rewarded in gentlemen’s division.

PCS remain a black box for me. I find that what is my thing is often not the judges’ thing. So, yes, I wish I could hear what is the judges’ thing without replacing the question marks with sour grapes. But if it is the matters of precedent, taste and reputation, I can’t help but feel a bit disillusioned.

My mom says that the PCS are so high because Brown skates more like they skated at the turn of the century, vs the current generation. I dunno, maybe that’s the best explanation.

Tavi... · Feb 9, 2020

Mathman said:
I think that the ISU has worked hard to make the GOEs as objective as possible. "hunched over, bad, ugly" is not one of the bullet points that is on the judges' list, so in pronciple that should not play a role in GOE.

To tell the truth, I would like it better if GOE were more subjective. It is, after all, a measure of quality. I would be perfectly fine with it if the criteria were: Meh = 0 GOE, Not bad = 1 GOE, That's better = 2 GOE, Good for you = 4 GOE and Wow! = 5 GOE.

As for the objection that, "who decides whether a jump is just OK or wow? -- the anser is simple: the judges do (that's why we call them judges and not bean-counters).

You don’t think very good body position from start to finish and effortless throughout apply? I sure do.

https://www.isu.org/media-centre/press-releases/2018-8/18119-new-grade-of-execution-2018-final/file

el henry · Feb 9, 2020

Still over the moon for Jason’s skate. To have the skill, artistry and performance chops to do that as the last skate of the night.:luv17:

Thank heavens in my 50 years of watching (with a break, it’s true, and who brought me back? Jason) the subjective elements of figure skating are still important. Those elements may madden us when our subjective appraisals do not equal those of the judges, but that will always happen in a judged sport. Figure skating simply will never as easy to judge as counting revolutions in the air, nor should it be.

Jason *earned* every last point he was awarded at this comp.:thumbsup: and I’m so happy to see so many others feel the same way:yes:

Mathman · Feb 9, 2020

Tavi... said:
You don’t think very good body position from start to finish and effortless throughout apply? I sure do.

I can only speak for myself. I can be effortlessly ugly all day long.

Mathman · Feb 9, 2020

lariko said:
The only time I had a problem with GoE was when I saw a combo (a gorgeous combo) get in excess of 5 points GOE—because of the pro-ratio to the BV total.

I am pretty sure that the GOE ratio is applied only to the highest-valued jump in a combination. (Is this right?) So the only way to get more than 5 GOE on a combo would be for the first jump to be valued at more than 10 points (a quad loop, flip or Lutz), and get +5 from every judge (or all but 1).

Sometimes feel kind of sorry for the poor old ISU. Whatever they do, nobody likes it. The reason they went to the "percentage of base value" idea in the first place was because everyone complained that it was unfair for someone to get, say, +3 extra GOE points for a double jump with base value only a point or two.

lariko · Feb 9, 2020

Basically, the figure skating is like if they made DaVinchi and VanGogh run a 100 m sprint, then combine that race outcome with which painting the judges likes better, Mona Lisa or the Starry Night...

el henry · Feb 9, 2020

lariko said:
Basically, the figure skating is like if they made DaVinchi and VanGogh run a 100 m sprint, then combine that race outcome with which painting the judges likes better, Mona Lisa or the Starry Night...

:agree:

And it has been that way since 1970, when I first saw Janet Lynn. Now someone may not enjoy that aspect of figure skating, but for me that is the wonder and joy of this sport.

and why I keep watching.

Mathman · Feb 9, 2020

el henry said:
Thank heavens in my 50 years of watching ... the subjective elements of figure skating are still important. Those elements may madden us when our subjective appraisals do not equal those of the judges, but that will always happen in a judged sport. Figure skating simply will never as easy to judge as counting revolutions in the air, nor should it be.

I am actually quite optimistic about ISU judging this season. Here Jason beat 10 skaters who did quads.

True, he probably won't beat Nathan Chen or Yuzuru Hanyu at Worlds. But that can be said about a lot of skaters.

Mathman · Feb 9, 2020

lariko said:
Basically, the figure skating is like if they made DaVinchi and VanGogh run a 100 m sprint, then combine that race outcome with which painting the judges likes better, Mona Lisa or the Starry Night...

And that's a good thing, right? The only thing better would be if they had to paint their masterpieces while running. (One point time deduction if they didn't finish the picture before they hit the 100 meter mark.)

lariko · Feb 9, 2020

Mathman said:
And that's a good thing, right? The only thing better would be if they had to paint their masterpieces while running. (One point time deduction if they didn't finish the picture before they hit the 100 meter mark.)

I would think so if both had equal chances to be liked, maybe. But if the pendulum is about to swing towards mellow skating of the past decades, because they are unsure about the way forward, to me to loses its appeal of being inspirational andon the brink of possible, fast, furious that I loved so much when I started to watch in 2018. I have enough things around me to make me want to cry. I want figureskating make me want to jump up and go do things and put a big grin on my face.

el henry · Feb 9, 2020

lariko said:
I would think so if both had equal chances to be liked, maybe. But if the pendulum is about to swing towards mellow skating of the past decades, because they are unsure about the way forward, to me to loses its appeal of being inspirational andon the brink of possible, fast, furious that I loved so much when I started to watch in 2018. I have enough things around me to make me want to cry. I want figureskating make me want to jump up and go do things and put a big grin on my face.

Putting a smile on our face is exactly what Jason Brown does for so very many of us

his powerful, precise and passionate skating is about as far from “mellow” , in my definition of the term, as I could imagine.

You may not appreciate Jason’s skating, cool

we can’t all like the same thing, But I can’t see figure skating changing the way it has been judged, with an important subjective component.

We can all cheer for the different skaters who give us joy

KiraraChin · Feb 9, 2020

Look, I'm probably the biggest Kazuki Tomono fan in this forum, but I'm not salty at all about Jason's PCS/GOE, they were fully deserved IMO.
I'm sure Kazuki would feel that coming second in steps (StSq + ChSq) just behind Jason is a great honour. Jason's SS and other elements have wonderful quality, and Kazuki is really not at the same level (yet).

As for Yuma, his jumps and SS are great, but I'm sorry to say his PCS were fairly inflated. His skating is still juniorish, lacking in PE/IN (which is normal for a junior), and although he's fast, his programme doesn't have many transitions. He should have been behind Kazuki in PCS, way behind Jun, and way way behind Jason and Yuzuru.

rosy14 · Feb 9, 2020

lariko said:
Basically, the figure skating is like if they made DaVinchi and VanGogh run a 100 m sprint, then combine that race outcome with which painting the judges likes better, Mona Lisa or the Starry Night...

Even worse, because the 100 m mark can be automatically measured with a micrometer exactitude. GoEs are not measured, but simply visual assessed. I mean height, width, speed of a jump, speed of a spin, velocity in skating, area covered by the skater...

lariko · Feb 9, 2020

el henry said:
Putting a smile on our face is exactly what Jason Brown does for so very many of us his powerful, precise and passionate skating is about as far from “mellow” , in my definition of the term, as I could imagine.

You may not appreciate Jason’s skating, cool we can’t all like the same thing, But I can’t see figure skating changing the way it has been judged, with an important subjective component.

We can all cheer for the different skaters who give us joy

I imagined I would see a battle for the bronze in Montreal, now I will be cheering for my favorites to get an honourable mention of the fourth position. That puts a damper on the whole trip. I should have went to Tallin instead.

rosy14 · Feb 9, 2020

Mathman said:
And that's a good thing, right? The only thing better would be if they had to paint their masterpieces while running. (One point time deduction if they didn't finish the picture before they hit the 100 meter mark.)

Well said !

el henry · Feb 9, 2020

lariko said:
I imagined I would see a battle for the bronze in Montreal, now I will be cheering for my favorites to get an honourable mention of the fourth position. That puts a damper on the whole trip.

I would like a battle for the bronze too, and I would like to see Jason in the hunt, because he is one of my favorite skaters (Nobody roots for their favorite skaters to do well more than I do :clap:

) But for Jason to do well, he will need to earn every point, just as he did at 4CC. Those points were earned, not given, and I hope he can do it again.

And you may be rooting for someone else, that's fine. I would like you to be happy just to see your favorite skaters skate:thumbsup: Have fun in Montreal!

lariko · Feb 9, 2020

el henry said:
I would like a battle for the bronze too, and I would like to see Jason in the hunt, because he is one of my favorite skaters (Nobody roots for their favorite skaters to do well more than I do) But for Jason to do well, he will need to earn every point, just as he did at 4CC. Those points were earned, not given, and I hope he can do it again.

And you may be rooting for someone else, that's fine. I would like you to be happy just to see your favorite skaters skate:thumbsup: Have fun in Montreal!

I don’t think it is possible for him to not win bronze, with his PCs in the nines, and his program established by now. While he did fall in NKH, that was a very odd one out. All other skaters that would have been contending for the bronze have higher risk programs, and do not have PCS exceeding nine. Simple arithmetics is too strongly in favor on Brown, baring bad luck, and hoping for a bad luck is horrible.

ladyjane · Feb 9, 2020

lariko said:
Basically, the figure skating is like if they made DaVinchi and VanGogh run a 100 m sprint, then combine that race outcome with which painting the judges likes better, Mona Lisa or the Starry Night...

How apt! And that's a good thing, at least in my view. If I wanted only mathematically measureable outcomes, I suppose I would be on the band wagon with my compatriots (Speed skating is immensely popular in my country). I'm not on that wagon. I'm just not interested.

But art for that matter...that I can discuss for hours and hours, be it Mona Lisa, Starry night or (my absolute favourite) the Madonna del Parto - the most beautiful picture in the world - in my view and someone else's who has actually written a book about this painting calling it that. There's a lot one can talk about, though there really are some general principles why people recognise good art, but there are also points of dispute. That's the fun of it, that one can agree on general principles but when it comes to concrete pictures/statues/plays, taste is still in play. Does that sound familiar to 'general principles and individual skates or skaters'? I think it does. That's why they've got 9 (!) judges to get a bit of intersubjectivity in to try and generalise that aspect of taste.

In summary, Figure Skating is one of the few sports I like, because it's not just about speed or jumping high, but also incorporates other things - things that are less objectively measurable. Did I mention I also like watching Synchronised Skating? Another one of those sports with both objectively measureable and intersubjectively measurable elements....

oatmella · Feb 9, 2020

lariko said:
I imagined I would see a battle for the bronze in Montreal, now I will be cheering for my favorites to get an honourable mention of the fourth position. That puts a damper on the whole trip. I should have went to Tallin instead.

It’s certainly not a foregone conclusion that Jason will win bronze at worlds. Boyang could have beat him here with one fewer popped jump, and Shoma, Dmitri Aliev, and Vincent (surely he will attempt more quads than at nationals) have higher scoring potential.

lariko · Feb 9, 2020

oatmella said:
It’s certainly not a foregone conclusion that Jason will win bronze at worlds. Boyang could have beat him here with one fewer popped jump, and Shoma, Dmitri Aliev, and Vincent (surely he will attempt more quads than at nationals) have higher scoring potential.

You can’t count their scoring potential without factoring in at least one fall or pop. Brown had outscored each of them this season. His PCSs are astronomical. His programs are not the subject to the same risks of falls. Uno had a troubled season, Zhou has month and a half to prep. All of them will have to travel internationally, Brown wouldn’t. And if, in addition, some undercurrent is turning against quads, there is a room for GoE games, inflating the value of triple jumps, decreasing the quads, but I don’t want to believe that.

2020 Four Continents: Men's Free Skate

lariko

Tavi...

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

Mathman

Mathman

lariko

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

Mathman

Mathman

lariko

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

KiraraChin

rosy14

lariko

rosy14

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

lariko

ladyjane

oatmella

陈巍

lariko

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