2020 Four Continents: Men's Free Skate | Page 4 | Golden Skate

2020 Four Continents: Men's Free Skate

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset
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Aug 12, 2014
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Well, this thread did go a bit off-topic ... but then, not really. A very interesting read.

The thing that bothers me the most about all this is that so often, the conversation comes down to Jason Brown versus "the quadsters." I don't see the men who do jump beautiful quads as being in an opposition category from Jason's brand of artistry. Or in a category from another brand of artistry that's uniquely their own, and maybe even on the other side of the spectrum from Jason's skating.

It narrows the very interesting topics of artistry and technical prowess as they co-exist in the (fabulous:love:) sport of figure skating down to an argument.

I'm very much in favor of the subjective side of figure skating, and I'm another who wouldn't be watching if it weren't a performance sport. But I believe artistry and expression happen in more than just one direction and with various qualities and emotions involved. Not just one set of criteria or values.

To take just one example from this competition, I find Roman Sadovsky's artistry and expression as exquisite, as moving, and as valuable. It's very different from Jason's, and I'd say as much as I love Jason's (I've been his fan since Riverdance), it's an extrovert's style. While Roman's style is less attention-getting, but it can reach me on an entirely different level, even more of a subtle soul level, maybe because I'm an introvert. Either style of course isn't easy to see or experience when there are several mistakes in a program.

Actually, that's one way I think Tracy and Brian have lifted Jason's talent to a higher level. Because he can make a mistake in a program and not have it really disrupt the program at all. Another man who could always do that is Adam Rippon; he could fall on his usual quad lutz and then I'd completely forget the fall because his artistry was poetry, and I lived inside it.
 

oatmella

陈巍
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
You can’t count their scoring potential without factoring in at least one fall or pop. Brown had outscored each of them this season. His PCSs are astronomical. His programs are not the subject to the same risks of falls. Uno had a troubled season, Zhou has month and a half to prep. All of them will have to travel internationally, Brown wouldn’t. And if, in addition, some undercurrent is turning against quads, there is a room for GoE games, inflating the value of triple jumps, decreasing the quads, but I don’t want to believe that.

Shoma scored 290 at Japan Nationals, and I believe he would have scored similarly internationally. As far as I know, Vincent is training in Toronto, so Jason has no travel advantage over him. Vincent also has a history of being able to peak in the second half of the season, so I am fairly confident that he will be able to improve on his Nationals performances.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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Mar 3, 2014
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You can’t count their scoring potential without factoring in at least one fall or pop. Brown had outscored each of them this season. His PCSs are astronomical. His programs are not the subject to the same risks of falls. Uno had a troubled season, Zhou has month and a half to prep. All of them will have to travel internationally, Brown wouldn’t. And if, in addition, some undercurrent is turning against quads, there is a room for GoE games, inflating the value of triple jumps, decreasing the quads, but I don’t want to believe that.

I'm not sure why you use terms like "games" or "inflation".

Jason is not earning his points through games. Or through inflation. He is earning those points using the system as it is currently constructed and maximizing his own talents as best he can. Other skaters maximize their talents as best they can. That is how figure skating works :think:

You may prefer other styles of skating, or other skaters, but there are no games or inflation in how Jason earned his score at 4CC.:noshake:
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
I'm not sure why you use terms like "games" or "inflation".

Jason is not earning his points through games. Or through inflation. He is earning those points using the system as it is currently constructed and maximizing his own talents as best he can. Other skaters maximize their talents as best they can. That is how figure skating works :think:

You may prefer other styles of skating, or other skaters, but there are no games or inflation in how Jason earned his score at 4CC.:noshake:

Not at 4CC, but in the future, if they decided to start making quads less desirable, they might send the message by consistently giving triple jumps higher goe than to quads, reducing the quad advantage. They can also outright change the scoring, like in pairs, where quad is not worth it because BV increase is small, and negated by the max level that can be achieved on it, in addition to all the energy and risk that goes into training and performing it.

It is hard to see the clear policy atm, so I just don’t know. So far Brown is the only skater rewarded for skating without quads vs there being two groups vying for placement in gentlemen. If they start adding skaters to the triple+PCS, I would interpret it as a move towards lowering the influence of TES/verifiable, increasing influence of PCS/professional judgment.
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
Shoma scored 290 at Japan Nationals, and I believe he would have scored similarly internationally. As far as I know, Vincent is training in Toronto, so Jason has no travel advantage over him. Vincent also has a history of being able to peak in the second half of the season, so I am fairly confident that he will be able to improve on his Nationals performances.


I hope so :pray: please, be more right than I am.
 

Interspectator

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
For me, Jason is seen as an exception to the quad your way to victory mindset- but he sholudn't be.
Through hard work, and years of showing up and producing wonderful programs that check all the PCS boxes and also being from a strong fed, the judges have decided to apply the rules fairly to him.
Have there been other skaters without quads that also deserve these scores? Maybe not in the same measure as Jason, but I think so.
I love excellence in skating. I love high quality jumps, be they quads or triples or even doubles. Those things should get all the scores the rulebook allows. Same with PCS categories. If a skater is excellent, then give them the scores. The kind of jumps they put in there shouldn't have anything to do with their PCS (according to the rule book)

Obviously, if a skater has excellent PCS AND Quads, they have the overall advantage -that will not change.
 
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CoyoteChris

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 4, 2004
I imagined I would see a battle for the bronze in Montreal, now I will be cheering for my favorites to get an honourable mention of the fourth position. That puts a damper on the whole trip. I should have went to Tallin instead.

I would like to See Gold, Silver, Bronze, Pewter, and plastic....but that's just me....I would also like to see award for best costume, cutest skater, and a "Grossly Hunched Over" GHO mark. I need help. :)
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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Mar 3, 2014
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United-States
And double post to give a few other skaters shout outs from 4CC:

Yuzu got his grand slam.:agree: He truly is a competitor for the ages, even if the FS was not what he wanted.

Jun! Loved his skate (Jason fans are not, contrary to popular opinion, anti-quad). Would have liked to see him a little higher in the standings, but what a thrill to skate that clean program in front of the home audience.:clap:

Han Yan. Still has the 3A that goes on for miles and miles and miles. And pocketography too;)

Donovan, he skated the FS as well as I’ve seen him skate, and misses Worlds FS minimums. His story is so inspiring, and his smile so endearing, I am :sad21: Glad he and the sparkly charro outfit were invited to the gala!
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
For me, Jason is seen as an exception to the quad your way to victory mindset- but he sholudn't be.
Through hard work, and years of showing up and producing wonderful programs that check all the PCS boxes and also being from a strong fed, the judges have decided to apply the rules fairly to him.
Have there been other skaters without quads that also deserve these scores? Maybe not in the same measure as Jason, but I think so.
I love excellence in skating. I love high quality jumps, be they quads or triples or even doubles. Those things should get all the scores the rulebook allows. Same with PCS categories. If a skater is excellent, then give them the scores. The kind of jumps they put in there shouldn't have anything to do with their PCS (according to the rule book)

Obviously, if a skater has excellent PCS AND Quads, they have the overall advantage -that will not change.

That last one goes without saying, and theoretically I would find it easier to understand if it wasn’t Brown alone, but in practice, going on professional judgment moves figure skating away from a competition toward a spectacle, and throws open the door to corruption that they at least tried to close with the new system and eyes on the athletic horizon. Any suspicion of corruption and vote trading makes me uncomfortable with continuing to follow the sport. I dislike the idea of reputation scoring, the years in the trenches rewards, anything that smacks of collusion and predetermined result.

I don’t believe in incorruptible humans, and even less so—impartial humans.
 

Interspectator

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
That last one goes without saying, and theoretically I would find it easier to understand if it wasn’t Brown alone, but in practice, going on professional judgment moves figure skating away from a competition toward a spectacle, and throws open the door to corruption that they at least tried to close with the new system and eyes on the athletic horizon. Any suspicion of corruption and vote trading makes me uncomfortable with continuing to follow the sport. I dislike the idea of reputation scoring, the years in the trenches rewards, anything that smacks of collusion and predetermined result.

I don’t believe in incorruptible humans, and even less so—impartial humans.

-A problem with judging...join the humongous club (all of us?) that think uneven application of the rules is a major turn-off for fans. ;)

But to go back to the topic of the thread, The performance of the night for me was Jun's LP. -There was a program that deserved more PCS!
And Kazuki Tomono. The extreme miserly-ness of his scores made me wonder crazily if he had accidentally spilled his drink on the judges. :palmf: I've rarely seen the hated (by me) Roxanne music skated with such attack and commitment.
 
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Sai Bon

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Country
New-Zealand
> And Kazuki Tomono. The extreme miserly-ness of his scores made me wonder crazily if he had accidentally spilled his drink on the judges. I've rarely seen the hated (by me) Roxanne music skated with such attack and commitment.

I'm so glad Kazuki did well. Just waiting for some kind person to post a link to his video, pref with the British commentator!
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
....going on professional judgment moves figure skating away from a competition toward a spectacle...

I don’t believe in incorruptible humans, and even less so—impartial humans.

Why do you say going on professional judgment moves figure skating? Figure skating has *always* relied on professional judgment. Nothing is “moving” :confused:

Figure skating will never be solely about measuring the highest jumps or the most revolutions, because then it will indeed “move” from being something other than figure skating. It’s not moving in that direction now and it didn’t in the past.

Individuals may find jumps and revolutions and height more exciting for their own watching, and good for them. :thumbsup:There are plenty of skaters they can enjoy watching.

But the subjective nature of figure skating scoring for artistic impression, or PCS, or whatever it may be called, has been, is now, and will be for ever. ;)
 

1111bm

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 31, 2016
The thing that bothers me the most about all this is that so often, the conversation comes down to Jason Brown versus "the quadsters."
[...]
But I believe artistry and expression happen in more than just one direction and with various qualities and emotions involved. Not just one set of criteria or values.

To take just one example from this competition, I find Roman Sadovsky's artistry and expression as exquisite, as moving, and as valuable. It's very different from Jason's, and I'd say as much as I love Jason's (I've been his fan since Riverdance), it's an extrovert's style. While Roman's style is less attention-getting, but it can reach me on an entirely different level, even more of a subtle soul level, maybe because I'm an introvert.

I love what you said here, this is exactly what I'm struggling with all the time when watching figure skating.

I find myself not responding well to a more extroverted performance style, to me it tends to feel inauthentic, pompous and oftentimes cheesy even. I dislike the way it feels too transparent in its attempt to chum up to the judges and audience, it feels almost manipulative and too obvious in trying to push the right buttons.
At the same time I recognise the commitment and skill that's being put into such a performance and which needs to be rewarded in some way of course, especially when the execution is very good.

Oh and I agree about Roman :). I actually find his SL program a lot more convincing and enjoyable than Jason's for this exact reason.
 

CoyoteChris

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 4, 2004
BTW, Congrats to my Chinese pairs and best wishes to all the Chinese skaters and their families....
(I still dont know who she is but I took her pic cause she is so purty! :)
 

Silvia451

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 6, 2014
Country
Romania
Yuma is only 16, I need to repeat this to myself. This kid is really amazing.
 

CoyoteChris

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 4, 2004
To tell the truth, I would like it better if GOE were more subjective. It is, after all, a measure of quality. I would be perfectly fine with it if the criteria were: Meh = 0 GOE, Not bad = 1 GOE, That's better = 2 GOE, Good for you = 4 GOE and Wow! = 5 GOE.).

And THIS ^ from a theoretical mathematician! :drama:
You go, Mathman!:)
 

Makemi

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 4, 2019
The men at 4CC certainly did not disappoint! That crazy SP with two and half full groups of clean performances had me worried for the FS, and while the frees weren't quite as clean there were so many memorable performances to be had.

Since everyone has pretty much already said all the things I was thinking I will just say that I think the true winner was Nam in the green room. :p
Exhibit A, Exhibit B, Exhibit C

ISU Commentator: "Well that's something you don't see everyday!" :laugh:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
-A problem with judging...join the humongous club (all of us?) that think uneven application of the rules is a major turn-off for fans. ;)

But to go back to the topic of the thread, The performance of the night for me was Jun's LP. -There was a program that deserved more PCS!
And Kazuki Tomono. The extreme miserly-ness of his scores made me wonder crazily if he had accidentally spilled his drink on the judges. :palmf: I've rarely seen the hated (by me) Roxanne music skated with such attack and commitment.

Kazuki was sensational! Great interpretation and movements. Nice quads too. He really deserves to head back to Worlds, and he would have a great shot to medal if fairly scored.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Not at 4CC, but in the future, if they decided to start making quads less desirable, they might send the message by consistently giving triple jumps higher goe than to quads, reducing the quad advantage. They can also outright change the scoring, like in pairs, where quad is not worth it because BV increase is small, and negated by the max level that can be achieved on it, in addition to all the energy and risk that goes into training and performing it...

The ISU does this sort of re-evaluation every year. They don't need to send any messages or play any games. After the season is over they assess the state of the sport and then the technical committee makes proposals to the general congress about what changes in the scale of values and other rules they think are desirable.

The most radical change that is floating around is the proposal to ditch the long program and short program altogether and instead have two programs of equal weight, one emphasizing artistry and the other emphasizing jumping, and with different sets of performance and scoring rules. It will be interesting to see if this proposal gains any support from the ISU membership, for implementation after the current Olympic cycle.
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
Forget security, any judge brave enough to have given Hanyu an 8.XX needs to be put in witness protection at this point. :p

There's already grumblings about the Mexican judge, who placed Hanyu in 6th on PCS.... run, girl, run! :eek: :slink:

This is what annoys me, as he made 2 major errors which reduces PE/I to maximum of 8.25, and the rest to maximum of 9.25


Edit: CanadianSkaterGuy corrected me its 8.75 for PE/In . Stupid mistake I was tired sorry.
 
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