2020 Four Continents: Men's Free Skate | Page 5 | Golden Skate

2020 Four Continents: Men's Free Skate

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
This is what annoys me, as he made 2 major errors which reduces PE/I to maximum of 8.25, and the rest to maximum of 9.25

8.75 for PE/IN. But yeah according to having two errors his PCS could have been only a maximum of 90.5 had all the judges scored according to the rules.
 

Ryan O

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 5, 2004
Country
Canada
Congrats to Jason on his silver medal. :)

It's nice to see the artistic side of skating rewarded sometimes.
 
E

eterialskater

Guest
Never liked Brown's skating so I am always left wanting why a skate Kostornaya could do better gets such nice scores. I am unimpressed as usual. The star of the night is Junhwan Cha. Such beautiful bladework, smooth flow and subtle extensions. Reminds me of a cross between Kozuka and Chan. Should have scored much higher and the best PCS of the night without a doubt.
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
Why do you say going on professional judgment moves figure skating? Figure skating has *always* relied on professional judgment. Nothing is “moving” :confused:

Figure skating will never be solely about measuring the highest jumps or the most revolutions, because then it will indeed “move” from being something other than figure skating. It’s not moving in that direction now and it didn’t in the past.

Individuals may find jumps and revolutions and height more exciting for their own watching, and good for them. :thumbsup:There are plenty of skaters they can enjoy watching. Matters of taste imo should not play a role so significant as to overshadow the substance.

To you Brown appears passionate and inspired, I look and see flexible, mild and, at times, sweet.

But the subjective nature of figure skating scoring for artistic impression, or PCS, or whatever it may be called, has been, is now, and will be for ever. ;)

Because I believe that professional means fair, explainable and consistent, and I do not see those qualities demonstrated between the judging of the events and individual skaters.
 

silveruskate

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 20, 2019
You can’t count their scoring potential without factoring in at least one fall or pop. Brown had outscored each of them this season. His PCSs are astronomical. His programs are not the subject to the same risks of falls. Uno had a troubled season, Zhou has month and a half to prep. All of them will have to travel internationally, Brown wouldn’t. And if, in addition, some undercurrent is turning against quads, there is a room for GoE games, inflating the value of triple jumps, decreasing the quads, but I don’t want to believe that.

You're not really making any sense. The scoring of other skaters is dependent on them not Jason. If they landed their quads they would defeat him due to there being no cap on TES. If you're frustrated that your favourites pop jumps then you should take that up with them. You say they are taking more risks compared to Jason, but if they aren't able to complete their technical elements and it's hurting their scores then maybe they should take the risk of reducing the value of elements they do and focusing on quality/being clean. Jason could easily litter his program with attempted failed quads and be 20th place. You brush it away like it's easy, but Jason has to be clean to have any chance of high scores, and if he wasn't clean his PCS would tank too, that is a lot of pressure in itself. And how astronomical when Yuzuru and Nathan get 96+? Do you say theirs are astronomical too?
 

Tavi...

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
Because I believe that professional means fair, explainable and consistent, and I do not see those qualities demonstrated between the judging of the events and individual skaters.

It sounds like you would be happier being a fan of a non-judged sport where there are absolutes. If you have ever seen the Aerial Challenge - a US competition in which figure skaters compete only jumps - you have some idea of how this would look in skating. I found it incredibly boring and could never be a fan, but I’m sure others may disagree.

To the extent you enjoy skating because it has programs and music and incorporates beautiful skating as well as jumps, I think you have to accept that some things are intangible and that there’s a subjective aspect to the sport. I certainly think judges could be better trained in how to judge components and GOE. But even if they were, I doubt you would agree with or understand every score awarded.
 

slider11

Medalist
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Jason Brown's silver medal at 4C's gives me hope that skating still values difficult skating AND tremendous artistry. I did not wait for the big jumps; I was mesmerized by his expression and movement that skated to this incredible piece of music. The jumps came-difficult combinations that were skated beautifully, spins and footwork that accented the flow and drama of the music. Congrats to the quad landers. But Jason Brown's skate is what draws me to skating and makes me come back.
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
You're not really making any sense. The scoring of other skaters is dependent on them not Jason. If they landed their quads they would defeat him due to there being no cap on TES. If you're frustrated that your favourites pop jumps then you should take that up with them. You say they are taking more risks compared to Jason, but if they aren't able to complete their technical elements and it's hurting their scores then maybe they should take the risk of reducing the value of elements they do and focusing on quality/being clean. Jason could easily litter his program with attempted failed quads and be 20th place. You brush it away like it's easy, but Jason has to be clean to have any chance of high scores, and if he wasn't clean his PCS would tank too, that is a lot of pressure in itself. And how astronomical when Yuzuru and Nathan get 96+? Do you say theirs are astronomical too?

That’s not what I had seen—what I had seen was Kagiyama landing all his quads and still losing out to Brown. Aliev landed 2 out of 3 quads in Skate America, and lost to Brown... In US Nationals Hiwatashi and Zhou landed their quads, and lost to Brown... I don’t see where the logic of ‘if only they had landed all their quads, they could have won’ comes from, the evidence is all to the contrary.

As far as PCS, to me scores of 9+ is something that marks a program that stands apart by a wide margin. I didn’t watch figure skating for long, but when I see Hanyu, Uno, Chen, Plushenko, Fernandez, I can see they are in a tier of their own. When I look at Brown, he is not distinctive enough from the other skaters. He is good, no question, but he doesn’t to me seem to have the godlike quality that can get through to me as a non-specialist.
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
It sounds like you would be happier being a fan of a non-judged sport where there are absolutes. If you have ever seen the Aerial Challenge - a US competition in which figure skaters compete only jumps - you have some idea of how this would look in skating. I found it incredibly boring and could never be a fan, but I’m sure others may disagree.

To the extent you enjoy skating because it has programs and music and incorporates beautiful skating as well as jumps, I think you have to accept that some things are intangible and that there’s a subjective aspect to the sport. I certainly think judges could be better trained in how to judge components and GOE. But even if they were, I doubt you would agree with or understand every score awarded.

I want to understand rather than agree.
 

silveruskate

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 20, 2019
That’s not what I had seen—what I had seen was Kagiyama landing all his quads and still losing out to Brown. Aliev landed 2 out of 3 quads in Skate America, and lost to Brown... In US Nationals Hiwatashi and Zhou landed their quads, and lost to Brown... I don’t see where the logic of ‘if only they had landed all their quads, they could have won’ comes from, the evidence is all to the contrary.

As far as PCS, to me scores of 9+ is something that marks a program that stands apart by a wide margin. I didn’t watch figure skating for long, but when I see Hanyu, Uno, Chen, Plushenko, Fernandez, I can see they are in a tier of their own. When I look at Brown, he is not distinctive enough from the other skaters. He is good, no question, but he doesn’t to me seem to have the godlike quality that can get through to me as a non-specialist.

You already know the PCS rules. They're not new. Someone could say Shoma would feel like he has a better chance and be more motivated if Nathan/Yuzuru didn't have such high PCS. Or that their PCS buffer makes them skate more confidently. I don't understand why suddenly now Jason is doing well in this system it's all awful and not worth even going.

Also, landing quads doesn't automatically mean high GOE either. It's a harder technical element but that doesn't mean there should be lenience in judging. Almost all of these skaters have long setups for their quads, no transition into them, and it isn't effortless throughout. These same markers are used for triples and should rightly be used for quads too.

The scoring system isn't perfect, you don't like PCS is my impression. But that isn't a Jason-problem, it's an ISU scoring problem. It was there before and after Jason. Secondly if Jason gets PCS 90 and the others get 80....then actually the score is reflecting they are roughly 90% as good at PCS as Jason so hardly astronomical. It isn't like the judges are saying he's doubly as good. Many people would think the difference should be much greater when a lot of these quad programs are wasting time on set up for the jumps.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
I want to understand rather than agree.

The understanding is simple: it is a judged sport. ‘Twas ever thus and ‘twill ever be. Judged sports rely on human perception and a assessment. Easy to understand:agree:

It is not a contest of who lands the most jumps with the most revolutions. A portion of it, and on the Forum we argue about which portion, but it is not and never has been just who lands jumps. Also easy to understand, yes:yes:

Jason Brown performs to the highest level on the judged portions of the sport. Therefore, he fairly earns scores commensurate with that. Do you like that part of figure skating? That’s up to you. Do you like Jason’s skating? That’s up to you.

But I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer and even I *understand* the system. (And FWIW, I think judging tended and still tends to give an unmerited quad bonus in PCS to persons who land many quads, but that’s not because I don’t understand the system, it’s because I don’t agree with it:biggrin:)
 
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lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
Well, if Brown continues to be scored in a similar fashion, indicating that he, indeed, is performing to the highest attainable level standard, I will stay to following juniors, pairs and ladies, where the judging outcomes so far make sense to me.
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
Hanyu skated his short program perfectly, but will have to do better in the long if he wants to compete for gold at Worlds. It also occurred to me that skating his two Olympic programs kind of gives Nathan a chance for a do-over at Worlds!
 

Tavi...

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
I want to understand rather than agree.

Based on your comments that a score of 9+ “marks a program that stands apart by a wide margin,” that you don’t think Jason has a “godlike quality,” isn’t “distinctive enough,” and that skaters you prefer “are in a tier of their own,” I don’t think you understand what each component measures or what a 6, 7, or 8 versus 9 means in, for example, transitions or interpretation. Here is a chart:

https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/...96-program-component-chart-id-sp-2019-20/file

In terms of judging quality, I think I gave you links to videos like this before, but I’ll give one to you again:

https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL723B645BA5A421EF

If you’re not very interested in the things program components measure - and based on things you said I don’t think you are - and if you don’t skate or haven’t studied music - you will probably have a hard time understanding components no matter how much you study.

Regarding quads, the current scoring system tries to find a balance between technical difficulty, quality of execution of technical elements, and how well a skater skates, what he does between the elements, his connection with the audience, and how he interprets and performs the story / music/ choreography. So a skater who lands one or many quads without executing them particularly well (ie fulfilling GOE bullet points) or who is lacking in the skills components measure can lose to a skater like Jason, who with the exception of quads does almost everything very, very, well.

Again, I think the real problem for you is that you dislike what Jason does so you can’t see how good he is. Similarly, I think you probably ignore flaws in the skaters you like. Basically, you are upset that components are too “subjective,” but your own judgement seems equally subjective, based only on what you instinctively prefer.
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
I love Jason Brown, especially his short program. I think he deserves every point on PCS (maybe higher in short program). I think he has one of the best triple flips.

However, I also think he should get an edge on his lutz
 

JSM

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 11, 2011
Skating is not easy. We talk a lot about quads, and rightly so, as they are worth the most points and are the most exciting element to a lot of people. But don’t underestimate the skill, the time, the dedication, the practice, the repetition, that skating skills require.

We see some skaters sacrifice transitions, deep edges, body alignment, program engagement (and don’t get me started on choppy crossovers) to complete their jumps. A very few talented skaters can incorporate all of this into a complete program. Jason may not do quads but he does other things well. You get points (or should get points, cough cough) for everything.
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
Based on your comments that a score of 9+ “marks a program that stands apart by a wide margin,” that you don’t think Jason has a “godlike quality,” isn’t “distinctive enough,” and that skaters you prefer “are in a tier of their own,” I don’t think you understand what each component measures or what a 6, 7, or 8 versus 9 means in, for example, transitions or interpretation. Here is a chart:

https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/...96-program-component-chart-id-sp-2019-20/file

In terms of judging quality, I think I gave you links to videos like this before, but I’ll give one to you again:

https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL723B645BA5A421EF

If you’re not very interested in the things program components measure - and based on things you said I don’t think you are - and if you don’t skate or haven’t studied music - you will probably have a hard time understanding components no matter how much you study.

Regarding quads, the current scoring system tries to find a balance between technical difficulty, quality of execution of technical elements, and how well a skater skates, what he does between the elements, his connection with the audience, and how he interprets and performs the story / music/ choreography. So a skater who lands one or many quads without executing them particularly well (ie fulfilling GOE bullet points) or who is lacking in the skills components measure can lose to a skater like Jason, who with the exception of quads does almost everything very, very, well.

Again, I think the real problem for you is that you dislike what Jason does so you can’t see how good he is. Similarly, I think you probably ignore flaws in the skaters you like. Basically, you are upset that components are too “subjective,” but your own judgement seems equally subjective, based only on what you instinctively prefer.

Thank you for the chart.

One thing I wish I could see for Brown because I have no idea was the Transitions, the way someone posted for Chen, showing the number and the variety of all the elements. It was great.

For the Composition, I saw Ice Coverage Maps, so that can be a measurable skill; once more of them are available, I will happily compare.

If you are saying that a person has to have musical education to appreciate Brown’s Performance and Interpretation, that makes him sound as a skater for the true connoisseurs only, and that liking his content elevates one to a higher level of fandom.

As subjective as everyone is, my gut feeling is that flawless and excellent should be more easily recognizable.

If tomorrow, a Mr.X from Nowhere skated similarly to Brown at a qualifier competition, would the PCSs awarded been above 9?
 

nussnacker

one and only
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 16, 2019
I love Jason Brown, especially his short program. I think he deserves every point on PCS (maybe higher in short program). I think he has one of the best triple flips.

However, I also think he should get an edge on his lutz

Ha, at least someone said it... my eyes have been bleeding from comments about how “textbook” his jumps are compared to Yuma or Jun. Lmao.
 
E

eterialskater

Guest
Ha, at least someone said it... my eyes have been bleeding from comments about how “textbook” his jumps are compared to Yuma or Jun. Lmao.

Textbook is hardly the word I'd use to describe Brown's jumps. The lutz edge is not good and the 3A has always been scratchy and at best just good enough.
 
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