Is figure skating becoming acrobatics on ice? | Golden Skate

Is figure skating becoming acrobatics on ice?

Taan

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 27, 2003
Is figure skating becoming acrobatics on ice? :think:
https://apnews.com/ad2277d338bb66f3d6bef7c83891db8c
“I am worried about the future of the sport,” Boitano says, even suggesting a return to the old 6.0 scoring system that balanced presentation with athleticism is intriguing. “A lot of fans don’t understand this (system) and they all understood what 6.0 meant. To go back to 6.0 would get so much attention and curiosity, too. It would bring back some of the popularity and definitely the artistry.

“Right now, I’m not sure what they are doing is working.”
:think:
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
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Mar 14, 2007
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Is figure skating becoming acrobatics on ice? :think:
https://apnews.com/ad2277d338bb66f3d6bef7c83891db8c
:think:

Yes. He (and other former greats such as Tai and Randy) are saying much more eloquently what I’ve been saying. If I wanted to see who could jump the highest, furthest, most I’d be watching track and field. I’ve also suggested a separate sport (“skate jumping” or whatever) where they all just jump, jump, jump and whoever is the last one standing wins.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
“We always tried to make the creative side just as important as the jumps, so it was the mark that had the importance. That’s not the case anymore.”

I disagree. Since the end of figures, technical types had an advantage when they hit their jumps but there are always ways for artists to close the gap. Surya had a lot of success under 6.0, arguably more success than she would have had under IJS. It's the same today; Alena is winning almost every event with the third highest BV in the senior division. If Anna or Sasha hit they win, like Anna did at Russian Nationals. Personally, I think IJS is better (despite some flaws) because every element matters. If you have bad spins or poor steps, it makes a difference whereas it mattered much less under 6.0. I think the only reason you see more risk today is because mistakes aren't punished as harshly now.
 

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~
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Jul 28, 2003
I think it would be interesting to bring back figures, after all as the great Trixi Schuba, stated, "It is Figure Skating" when she was criticized for her mediocre free skating skills, but still winning gold medals based on her superior figure skating skills. The problem was the average fan never saw her tracing figures so didn't understand. I'm not sure bringing back the 6.0 marking system would change much either. There will always be skaters who are better at artistry and skaters who are better at jumping. I'm not really a fan of the quad, so I wouldn't miss an extra turn in the air. I'd rather see skaters rewarded for artistry than the most jumping passes.
 

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
“We always tried to make the creative side just as important as the jumps, so it was the mark that had the importance. That’s not the case anymore.”

I disagree. Since the end of figures, technical types had an advantage when they hit their jumps but there are always ways for artists to close the gap. Surya had a lot of success under 6.0, arguably more success than she would have had under IJS. It's the same today; Alena is winning almost every event with the third highest BV in the senior division. If Anna or Sasha hit they win, like Anna did at Russian Nationals. Personally, I think IJS is better (despite some flaws) because every element matters. If you have bad spins or poor steps, it makes a difference whereas it mattered much less under 6.0. I think the only reason you see more risk today is because mistakes aren't punished as harshly now.

Then make the spins and step sequences equal in value with the jumps. Until then, three of the four disciplines will continue to be jumpfests first and foremost.
 

lariko

Medalist
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Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
I am a new fan that started watching figure skating after I saw Shoma Uno on TV during Olympic news coverage. This season I watched every competition, national and international, junior and senior, I could get my YouTube to play. I traveled to Skate Canada and I am going to Montreal.

I had grown up in the 1980’s. I didn’t understand 6.0 system then, and I have my frustrations with PCS.

But TES? Hell, yes!

I get it, and I love understanding what’s going on during the skate with a score window, know the value and the name of each performed element.

It makes me feel active and engaged while watching, makes me being able to predict a possible outcome and I like it.

I absolutely don’t need to be treated as someone who can’t add the numbers or look stuff up on the internet. Don’t condescend to me to tell me that I can’t get BV and GOE. I very much can. It’s the 6.0 that makes me feel being lorded over by the connoisseurs who tell me that I, the pleb, should just believe in magic numbers they pull out of their hat.

6.0 system made me feel like I was kept in the dark, had to rely on the commentator and their opinion.

Current system let’s me make up my own mind, and tells me that it is valuable, not to be dismissed and that instead I should listen to the experts, other people who watched the skating for longer or even skaters themselves.

Sorry, nope. My most beloved skater has their opinions, i have mine, and I don’t if I disagree—they are a tightly knit circle, and I am a fan. I wish them good health and prosperity, but beyond that, I am going to think what I want to think.

As someone who had heard of all the backroom dealings and who is not invested in any one nation sweeping the podiums, but instead wanting my favourite skaters to do awesome, I abhor the 6.0 system and what it stood for.

With 6.0 and greater weight accorded to the artistic merit, I would never be able to believe that the judging is fair. And I am not interested in watching the rigged competitions, the WFF on ice.

The moment I can’t help but think, this score is because such and such is from this country or because they had skated for many years... that’s when I don’t want to watch it.

Easy to see TES, Japanese metrics on jumps and speed, skating maps, extreme athletic valour of the skaters, and, in the disciplines where the turn around is higher and not the same people always win competitions for many years running is what makes the competitions thrilling to me. I also do love the spectacle, so nope, I don’t just want to watch jumps. I had never been attracted to following gymnastic or any other sport, team or individual.

I will not be able to enjoy a competition where the differences between the skates are minimal, intangible and depends on reputation/years in business.

My two least favourite skaters among the top tier are universally acknowledged as pinnacles of skating prowess and artistry, the ‘slater’s skaters’ while some less than perfect juniors made me cheer.

My valiant attempt to watch the ice dance during the Europeans made me feel like I am Crocodile Dandy, who had already seen the TV set twenty years ago, and that’s what was on too.

So, there, that’s my opinion as a brand new fan of figure skating who is the member of the unwashed masses where skating, dancing and music is concerned.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I had grown up in the 1980’s. I didn’t understand 6.0 system then ...

Great post. Thanks for giving your perspective.

However, I have to say that the 6.0 system was simplicity itself. Each judge gave out ordinal placements, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. (The 5.8s and 5.9s were just for show.) Whoever got the most 1st place ordinals won.

This was great for wuz-robbing. If my personal favorite didn't win. I could say, "What is wrong with that Albanian judge that he thought the other girl was better.? BOOO!"

Under IJS, all I can do is mumble softly, "well, I thought my girl should have got 8.75 in Transitions, but judge #6 only gave her 8.5. Oh well, what do I know?
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
By a timely co-incidence an article just today showed up in my newsfeed where the sport of golf seems to be having somewhat similar discussions. (They interviewed Tiger Woods extensively.)

It seems that in golf the problem is that nowadays the top pros can hit the ball too far. This is both because the players have become stronger and more athletic, and also (mainly) because equipment is getting better. This causes a big problem for golf course designers. If a course is sufficiently long to pose a challenge to the very top guys, then regular players (where the courses make their bread and butter) cannot play it at all, no matter how much they try to compensate by shortening the tees, easy hole placements, etc.

One suggested solution is called "bifurcation" in golf circles. There would be separate courses, separate rules, separate equipment allowed, etc. for amateur/recreational players, reserving just a few suoer-courses for major pro tournaments.

By the way, speaking of artistry, Tiger Woods himself has not ruled out the possibility of winning another major or two before he's done. (Woods has won 15 majors, chasing Jack Nicklaus' record of 18. After several recent years of struggle Woods won the 2019 Master's for number 15). In terms of artistry versus tech, the Master's is really the only major tournament that he can win any more. The others are too long and favor the younger guys who can whack their drives a country mile. Augusta National is somewhat shorter and sweeter. You win by shaping your irons beautifully and also by having the experience to know how each hole needs to be handled.
 
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withwings

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 5, 2014
Is figure skating becoming acrobatics on ice? :think:
https://apnews.com/ad2277d338bb66f3d6bef7c83891db8c
:think:

No, it rather is becoming ice gymnastics. Ice gymnastics and figure skating needs to be separated.

And ice gymnastic fans are rude, loud and incapable to have any discussion/conversation. For them it is an entertainment or political platform or both.Figure skating fans have conversations out of love of this wonderful miracle given to us- a figure skating. Figure skating comprises body, soul and spirit.
 

MCsAngel2

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 10, 2019
I mean, no one should be under the delusion that politicking and bias has been eliminated under IJS scoring. It still exists. But, and Brian, I love you, but IJS scoring is vastly superior to the old 6.0 system.

And I don't think Brian was actually saying the 6.0 system was better, it's that he thinks IJS scoring is turning off potential fans. I think he's wrong. Television/other viewership of figure skating competitions is way down from what it was in the 80s and early 90s for a variety of reasons, including the explosion of cable/internet/streaming - there is a ton more content available for viewers to choose from. It's also down in North America because NA isn't dominating the field anymore.

I came back as a fan this season after about 20 years away (except for Olympics). I'm not totally there yet with deciphering alllll the scoring nuances, but I'm about 80% there, and it didn't take that long. Don't bring back 6.0.
 

Pantsu

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 12, 2019
Oh yeah, what is it, the Russian girls again and you know what, the man is concerned for their health
Would he say this if it was not for their domination. I know the answer

Do you want more artistry ? Look at the ice dance. That's hardly a sport, more like a politicking show
 

Flying Feijoa

On the Ice
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Sep 22, 2019
Country
New-Zealand
6.0 system made me feel like I was kept in the dark, had to rely on the commentator and their opinion.

Current system let’s me make up my own mind, and tells me that it is valuable, not to be dismissed and have to listen to the experts.

I agree, lack of transparency was a serious flaw of the 6.0 system. It's impossible to completely eliminate subjectivity in a judged sport, but the current system is a bit fairer (of course with room to improve, but the potential is there).

There's a tricky paradox: to be a fairer sport, skating needs to be quantified. Sports competitions are like scientific studies: the more conditions are controlled for, the more reliable the results. In skating, this is done by standardising programme structure: specifying what elements are allowed, what criteria are needed for spins/step sequences etc. It's necessary in order to have a common basis for comparison of different skaters. Using another analogy, it's more objective to compare how well two ballet dancers do the Black Swan variation, rather than comparing a ballet dancer to a hip hop dancer (hence why talent shows are basically popularity contests).

The flip side of standardisation is that everyone's programmes start to look the same, which reduces the entertainment value (especially at major ISU competitions where the audience has to sit through 20+ skaters per event).

Plus, if a system is geared mainly towards measuring how well different people do the same thing, then it will be less effective at processing parameters like creativity.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Oh yeah, what is it, the Russian girls again and you know what, the man is concerned for their health.

Would he say this if it was not for their domination. I know the answer.

So do I. (I am a world expert in reading Brian Boitano's mind. Sometimes I think I am Brian Boitano. ;) )

Boitano doesn't give a fiddle-dee-dee about what country someone hails from. But he does care deeply -- he has devoted his life to it -- about the artistic side of figure skating and about its audience appeal.
 
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alexaa

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 27, 2018
I don’t think Jeremy agrees. He was taking about quads and artistry around 09:50.

https://youtu.be/69VZlNgb-w4

He echoed same feeling in this IFS magazine article last July
https://www.ifsmagazine.com/jeremy-abbott-pursuing-an-artistic-path/

What do you think about the current developments, particularly in men’s skating?

I find it very interesting. I hear so many complaints about quads and about the artistry of skating going down and nobody skates anymore and blah, blah, blah. I feel very different actually because I kind of was a bridge between two generations. When I was coming up you were either artistic or you were athletic. You fell into one category or the other and that was that. Simple. This is an artistic skater and this is an athletic skater.

You did the quads or you didn’t. It was very black and white. And now it’s like … the men who do the quads, they have so much artistry. They all try to bring a different style and a different mindset and I don’t see anybody doing the same style year after year. They’re all trying to push themselves with music and movement, with style and choreography, as well as pushing the boundaries of the athletic side of the sport. I actually love watching men’s skating.

Not everyone is my cup of tea, but I can appreciate the effort that they’re putting in because nobody did that many quads before — and if you did quads, you kind of had to find a formula. You had what you were good at and you did it, and you performed and it was very cut and dried. I love watching everyone really try to explore these days.
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
Great post. Thanks for giving your perspective.

However, I have to say that the 6.0 system was simplicity itself. Each judge gave out ordinal placements, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. (The 5.8s and 5.9s were just for show.) Whoever got the most 1st place ordinals won.

This was great for wuz-robbing. If my personal favorite didn't win. I could say, "What is wrong with that Albanian judge that he thought the other girl was better.? BOOO!"

Under IJS, all I can do is mumble softly, "well, I thought my girl should have got 8.75 in Transitions, but judge #6 only gave her 8.5. Oh well, what do I know?

Simplicity in numbers flashed doesn’t mean easier to understand why the score was awarded. The current one is easier in that respect, and the metrics help even more.

The running score totalling in that corner alone listing every element and its value is awesome. Vs the two mystery cards at the end.

I also understand that people don’t like that skaters now fall more often, attempting difficult jumps. But that potential for imperfection is what makes it easier on me as audience and drives the point home that this stuff is brutal hard. Which makes it cool.

People say, that, like everyone can agree upon what’s a work of art... Hells, no, we can’t agree if eggs are good for you.

One thing I know—with new rules and new skating style, it is an exciting sport, when it used to be anything but. And in 2019, to gain audience and following, any form of entertainment has to excite a lot of people first and foremost & don’t make them feel inferior.

I no longer have to watch all the flawless performances with differences being akin to finding Waldo game or who loves Star Wars and who loves Titanic more on this day. That recent argument in EU over ID gold is a perfect example of ‘You gotta be kidding me, Felicity’ when people argued who was what better why. Like, gods, no... that’s not my cup of tea.

At least in Blades of Glory they both won, lol...
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
The 6.0 system wasn’t that simple. I still have trouble understanding how the ordinal system determined the winner when it was close. Both systems have their good and bad points. I do think artistry is undervalued in the current system.
But it has been exciting to watch the technical developments in both ladies and men’s’ skating.. But if a a totally technical skater like Sasha Trusova wins the Olympics, I think there will be some re-evaluation of the current imbalance in the IJS between technical ability and artistry/presentation.
 

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
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Yes. He (and other former greats such as Tai and Randy) are saying much more eloquently what I’ve been saying. If I wanted to see who could jump the highest, furthest, most I’d be watching track and field. I’ve also suggested a separate sport (“skate jumping” or whatever) where they all just jump, jump, jump and whoever is the last one standing wins.

They have a jump related contest every summer or almost every summer in Colorado Springs.
https://twitter.com/aerialchallenge?lang=en
 

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
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Jan 9, 2017
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