Is figure skating becoming acrobatics on ice?

lariko · Feb 12, 2020

jenaj said:
The 6.0 system wasn’t that simple. I still have trouble understanding how the ordinal system determined the winner when it was close. Both systems have their good and bad points. I do think artistry is undervalued in the current system.
But it has been exciting to watch the technical developments in both ladies and men’s’ skating.. But if a a totally technical skater like Sasha Trusova wins the Olympics, I think there will be some re-evaluation of the current imbalance in the IJS between technical ability and artistry/presentation.

Artistry is a matter of taste and individual perception. It is broken down into two components that reflect just those perceived nuance for the panel to weigh in, Musicality and Interpretation. In an athletic competition, that’s already a large percentage that is given to things that cannot be verified or connected to personally by everyone. It is used to fine tune the standing, together with the more tangible metrics.

But in my opinion it should never be so high as to make it impossible for a skater to pack arsenal to win despite what the panel today thinks artistic is, what music is in, and who should get a helping hand.

Now, just like people say there is aerial challenge for jumping only, there is also a wide variety of skating shows available around the globe, where the skaters got to both perform and earn money. They are specifically there to be an artistic extravaganza, with light and stories. They are beautiful.

I think people who want the artistic side should consider watching or attending these shows, instead of sitting through 40 skaters working their way through the ranks by demonstrating the mastery of sport.

Trusova specifically is very good in doing one thing few of the skaters do—she captures imagination by being daring, not like all the other ladies, and carries skating to the masses in a package that tells a story blending on and off ice fantasy. She is the kind of athlete that needs to be in the mix for medals for a sport to be appealing.

It should not always be about which princess outprincesses all other princesses. We need tomboys to be successful too and tear the princesses down once in a while.

The 3A is a rare gift a sport has, a story within a story, and it will not last long. I am amazed at how many want to place a godsend under an interdict, instead of letting themselves enjoy a whole lot of good things the phenomenon creates.

samkrut@mail.ru · Feb 12, 2020

When Nathan jumped 5 quads during the Olympics Brian and many others were not as eloquent as now. On the contrary, I remember just praises and cheers. All these "concerns" have magically amplified these season with the unbeatable 3A and weak attempts (so far) of Rika and Kaori to show they can do quads as well.

More weight to spins? Why? All the top Russians unlike some other less flexible skaters have no issues with crazy spins.

More weight to step sequence? No, thank you. Stsq is the most politically driven element where the same steps can get both level 2 and level 4 depending on who are in tech control booth.

Figures? One has to be kidding. 0 value to spectators. When I was a skater in the early 70s we all hated figures that we had to drill for an hour every single day. It was soooo boring. So, little value to skaters as well. You don't have to drill the figures to develop the top skating skills. Ask Kostornaya.

You can't stop the progress. Hunkers can only put temporary brakes on it.

WeakAnkles · Feb 12, 2020

[email protected] said:
When Nathan jumped 5 quads during the Olympics Brian and many others were not as eloquent as now. On the contrary, I remember just praises and cheers. All these "concerns" have magically amplified these season with the unbeatable 3A and weak attempts (so far) of Rika and Kaori to show they can do quads as well.

More weight to spins? Why? All the top Russians unlike some other less flexible skaters have no issues with crazy spins.

More weight to step sequence? No, thank you. Stsq is the most politically driven element where the same steps can get both level 2 and level 4 depending on who are in tech control booth.

Figures? One has to be kidding. 0 value to spectators. When I was a skater in the early 70s we all hated figures that we had to drill for an hour every single day. It was soooo boring. So, little value to skaters as well. You don't have to drill the figures to develop the top skating skills. Ask Kostornaya.

You can't stop the progress. Hunkers can only put temporary brakes on it.

If the sport is all about quads and 3As, why bother skating to music? Or wearing costumes?

I do find it ironic that what gathers the most points are those things where skates spend most of the time not actually, you know, skating. On ice.

Miller · Feb 12, 2020

It would be quite easy to come up with 6.0 presentation i.e. how each judge scored the contest, and one of the great things about 6.0, with IJS scoring – big shoutout to GS member Draqq who first came up with the idea.

Show the PCS mark for each judge (5 scores combined into 1) out of 10, and ‘reverse factor’ the TES score so that it is too ‘out of 10’ (but not quite).

E.g. In Men’s Longs divide the TES out of 10 and show that for each judge.

For most skaters at elite level it would be about 8.something, along with their PCS, but for the likes of Yazuru Hanyu and Nathan Chen it might be as much as 12, but it would still be in the same ball park area as the PCS, plus it would be much easier for a general fan to get to grips with than the current numbers which may not mean a whole lot.

Hence do something like this and you’ve got the drama and intrigue of 6.0, plus a much more rigorous system of awarding technical scores i.e BV plus GOEs added or subtracted.

N.B. For Ladies the reverse factor would be 8 i.e. the female equivalent of the 0.8/1.6 factoring you have for them compared with 1.0/2.0 for men. Hence a typical TES of say 70 would convert to 8.75, very close to what the PCS score might be, but for someone like Anna Shcherbakova who’s now scoring 100 TES, she’d be getting something like 12.5 from each judge i.e. the same as what Yuzuru Hanyu or Nathan Chen might be getting on a very good day, and also giving some consistency across the different disciplines – casual fans would soon realise that anything approaching 10 in PCS or TES was very good indeed, and anything over 10 for the latter would be exceptional.

macy · Feb 12, 2020

WeakAnkles said:
Then make the spins and step sequences equal in value with the jumps. Until then, three of the four disciplines will continue to be jumpfests first and foremost.

i honestly wish this would happen. i have no issue with anyone doing 3As or quads, i love watching them, but the problem is doing those jumps is the only way to win because they are the point grabbers. a skater with other strengths than jumping has no way to catch up and hardly a chance to podium at most events. the only strength that is really rewarded is jumping. i want to see all kinds of technical elements scored more evenly across the board (jumps, spins and choreo/step sequences), but also still keeping in mind difficulty levels and GOE. spins and step sequences are harder than they look and require a lot of stamina and aren't scored accordingly.

a level 4 combination spin is only worth 3.5 in BV, and a level 4 step sequence 3.9. the two easiest triple jumps, 3S & 3T, are worth 4.3 points and 4.2 points base value. it's a bit ridiculous to me that the most difficult levels of other elements are worth less than the easiest triples.

IMO the harder triples (loop, flip & lutz) should be worth a little more than level 4 steps and spins, but i'd even argue a 3S & 3T should be worth around the same if not slightly less (we are talking about the highest possible difficulty in steps & spins, afterall). overall, the gap needs to be closer. and i also think PCS should be worth a bit more than the technical score...it is figure skating, after all. i want to see the initiative for skaters to not only chase the harder jumps but better skating quality, better steps, better spins.

flanker · Feb 12, 2020

WeakAnkles said:
If the sport is all about quads and 3As, why bother skating to music? Or wearing costumes?

I do find it ironic that what gathers the most points are those things where skates spend most of the time not actually, you know, skating. On ice.

Axel Paulsen, what did you do to the figure skating in that sad year of 1882?

BTW do you know, that jumps exist in figure skating much longer than music?

jenm · Feb 12, 2020

[email protected] said:
When Nathan jumped 5 quads during the Olympics Brian and many others were not as eloquent as now. On the contrary, I remember just praises and cheers. All these "concerns" have magically amplified these season with the unbeatable 3A and weak attempts (so far) of Rika and Kaori to show they can do quads as well.

More weight to spins? Why? All the top Russians unlike some other less flexible skaters have no issues with crazy spins.

More weight to step sequence? No, thank you. Stsq is the most politically driven element where the same steps can get both level 2 and level 4 depending on who are in tech control booth.

Figures? One has to be kidding. 0 value to spectators. When I was a skater in the early 70s we all hated figures that we had to drill for an hour every single day. It was soooo boring. So, little value to skaters as well. You don't have to drill the figures to develop the top skating skills. Ask Kostornaya.

You can't stop the progress. Hunkers can only put temporary brakes on it.

you just said you hate the things that make figure skating, figure skating.
it's not ice jumping. Jumps are great and all, but so are spins, and step sequences and actual skating.

not everyone can jump quads but not everyone can skate great also.

lariko · Feb 12, 2020

The rate of failure on jumps far exceeds the rate of failure on spins, spirals and steps, providing a wider margin of differences, allowing figure skating to qualify as a competition and give each athlete the ability to control the outcome, vs someone else controlling it.

I am not sure why the argument ‘it’s either or’ is made at all, when it’s both. There are marks in the scoring chart that assess the cohesion between the elements, and the jump integration.

There are also lower level competitions that do not have the high difficulty jumps for those seeking less jumps. I bet they are easy to find and attend.

I would also argue that anyone capable of producing a quad jump at a speed of 16-20 clicks per hour, can skate pretty darn good.

flanker · Feb 12, 2020

jenm said:
you just said you hate the things that make figure skating, figure skating.
it's not ice jumping. Jumps are great and all, but so are spins, and step sequences and actual skating.

not everyone can jump quads but not everyone can skate great also.

It's much easier to do lvl 4 spin than a jump with four rotations. The current "not-likefest" against jumps has the very same roots like "age eligibility shoud be increased".

There is a saying:
"If you can't beat them, join them."

This now transformed into:
"If you can't beat them, change the rules."

noskates · Feb 12, 2020

I think that presentation and athleticism should have equal value. The number of men (and women) who can successfully and consistently land quads is few. And I DO think it's just as hard to get a level 4 spin as rotate 4 times in the air. If it wasn't as hard you would see more skaters getting level 4 spins! I personally find it boring to watch poorly executed jumps - the skater probably knowing they aren't going to land them cleanly but will get points anyway. How about making the penalty for falling, underrotating, popping more stringent. That would definitely level the playing field. I just envision
more and more injuries and shortened careers from young skaters trying to live up to the Nathan Chens and Yuzuru Hanyus of the world. These two men in particular were blessed with the ability to do these jumps - very few people are that gifted. I love this sport and want to see balanced programs again.

icetug · Feb 12, 2020

flanker said:
BTW do you know, that jumps exist in figure skating much longer than music?

No, in the contrary, I know that music was used for figure skating ages before anybody tried to jump

Arbitrary · Feb 12, 2020

icetug said:
No, in the contrary, I know that music was used for figure skating ages before anybody tried to jump

Jumps are known for about 110y. Music in competition?

flanker · Feb 12, 2020

icetug said:
No, in the contrary, I know that music was used for figure skating ages before anybody tried to jump

And did they use mp3 formats back then or they've ordered whole Vienna Philharmonic? :biggrin:

Music (live jazz band, same tune for everybody) was used for the first time during the olympic competition in 1932.

yulikali · Feb 12, 2020

macy said:
i honestly wish this would happen. i have no issue with anyone doing 3As or quads, i love watching them, but the problem is doing those jumps is the only way to win because they are the point grabbers. a skater with other strengths than jumping has no way to catch up and hardly a chance to podium at most events. the only strength that is really rewarded is jumping. i want to see all kinds of technical elements scored more evenly across the board (jumps, spins and choreo/step sequences), but also still keeping in mind difficulty levels and GOE. spins and step sequences are harder than they look and require a lot of stamina and aren't scored accordingly.

a level 4 combination spin is only worth 3.5 in BV, and a level 4 step sequence 3.9. the two easiest triple jumps, 3S & 3T, are worth 4.3 points and 4.2 points base value. it's a bit ridiculous to me that the most difficult levels of other elements are worth less than the easiest triples.

IMO the harder triples (loop, flip & lutz) should be worth a little more than level 4 steps and spins, but i'd even argue a 3S & 3T should be worth around the same if not slightly less (we are talking about the highest possible difficulty in steps & spins, afterall). overall, the gap needs to be closer. and i also think PCS should be worth a bit more than the technical score...it is figure skating, after all. i want to see the initiative for skaters to not only chase the harder jumps but better skating quality, better steps, better spins.

Performing a spin is significantly easier than doing a quad; there are a lot of skaters who can get level 4 on their spins, certainly more than the quad jumpers.

What is hard, however, is to make the spin really good. Like, there is barely anyone who doesn't travel at all today in their spins - the only example I can think of is Satoko's layback, and even then she doesn't travel mostly only before she changes positions to bielmann.

Because of the pure athleticism required, I don't think it would be reasonable to up the BV of spins - but I would love it if their execution mattered more, like changing the GOE factors for spins and steps. Considering how rare it is to see a fast, not-travelling, with enough rotations in each position and beautiful lines all throughout spin, I think it would be fair to make it worth more than a decent triple. I believe this lack of striving for perfection in the spins is the reason they aren't considered as exciting as the jumps. But spins like Satoko's or Serafima Sakhanovich crazy speed in her camel have certainly made me go "wow" before.

As for the PCS vs TES debate, here's a crazy suggestion: what if instead of adding the two marks, they multiply it? (For example, 3+1 and 2+2 both give 4, but 3×1=3 and 2×2=4) In that way, more well-rounded skaters are going to be encouraged while the two marks regain their significance and importance. XD

Edwin · Feb 12, 2020

Define acrobatics please and come back to this thread.

samkrut@mail.ru · Feb 12, 2020

Different strokes for different folks, no doubt. I am not a big fan of "pure artistry" in figure skating. I prefer ballet. Although some Averbukh's shows were not bad. Each season I watch only first galas - gala performances have little replay value FOR ME.

Jumps make figure skating the sport because only there we have significant risk and reward at the same time. No matter how big a star is 2 falls and the medal is gone. And they seldom fall on steps and spins. The jumps push adrenaline up.

Yes, there is a minority of fans who prefer dance in figure skating. Even then there is a difference - there is a pair and, hence, moves in sync and dynamics/emotions between them. Single dance routine without jumps? It's not even funny.

Once again, I fully believe that currently element weights in singles are well balanced. If someone does not like that the Russians win it's their personal problem.

Flutzel · Feb 12, 2020

Maybe a stupid question, idk since I'm somewhat new to figure skating, but why isn't there a Singles Ice Dance category? Or was there ever one? I remember that this confused me when I first started to look up figure skating competitions and it seems to me that would solve the issues of people who prefer artistry over athleticism.

flanker · Feb 12, 2020

Flutzel said:
Maybe a stupid question, idk since I'm somewhat new to figure skating, but why isn't there a Singles Ice Dance category? Or was there ever one? I remember that this confused me when I first started to look up figure skating competitions and it seems to me that would solve the issues of people who prefer artistry over athleticism.

There was, just it was known under the name "compulsory figures." Nobody actually liked it.

jenm · Feb 12, 2020

flanker said:
It's much easier to do lvl 4 spin than a jump with four rotations. The current "not-likefest" against jumps has the very same roots like "age eligibility shoud be increased".

There is a saying:
"If you can't beat them, join them."

This now transformed into:
"If you can't beat them, change the rules."

I have no problem with jumps. FYI. After all, my favorite skater is known for her big beautiful jumps.
I just think that it is not fair to elevate jumps so much and then ignore the other elements. They should all work to create a well-balanced program.
And some can jump quads which is an incredible feat but like, most of the program duration is taken up by choreo, steps, spins, presentation, etc.
Different skaters, different strengths. I’m all for rewarding jumps but i’m also for rewarding the other elements and artistry better than it is today and if th winner has both, that’s amazing. Alena and Rika are good examples.

SarahSynchro · Feb 12, 2020

Flutzel said:
Maybe a stupid question, idk since I'm somewhat new to figure skating, but why isn't there a Singles Ice Dance category? Or was there ever one? I remember that this confused me when I first started to look up figure skating competitions and it seems to me that would solve the issues of people who prefer artistry over athleticism.

Canada has solo dance events in the lower levels of competitive figure skating, just not at the national or international level.

Is figure skating becoming acrobatics on ice?

lariko

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