Is figure skating becoming acrobatics on ice? | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Is figure skating becoming acrobatics on ice?

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
I have no problem with jumps. FYI. After all, my favorite skater is known for her big beautiful jumps.
I just think that it is not fair to elevate jumps so much and then ignore the other elements. They should all work to create a well-balanced program.
And some can jump quads which is an incredible feat but like, most of the program duration is taken up by choreo, steps, spins, presentation, etc.
Different skaters, different strengths. I’m all for rewarding jumps but i’m also for rewarding the other elements and artistry better than it is today and if th winner has both, that’s amazing. Alena and Rika are good examples.

So, value me the artistry of Verdi's Aida vs. the artistry of the Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Jumps are known for about 110y. Music in competition?

Jackson Haines introduced what became known as the "European Style" (as opposed to the rigid technique that comprised the "British Style") of figure skating, including skating to music, in the 1860s.
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
Jackson Haines introduced what became known as the "European Style" (as opposed to the rigid technique that comprised the "British Style") of figure skating, including skating to music, in the 1860s.

"Skating to music" isn't the same as "international competition". If so, we could go back to the times when aristocracy discovered skating as their new pastime.
 

KOBOT37

Match Penalty
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
This problem has one root cause,apart of the obvious one: Some people here simply do not want to watch an athletic competition.

Hence why 'go watch track and field' 'acrobatics on ice', 'gymnastics on ice' and etc comment resurface every once in a while.

Yes, Absolutely, Figure skating is very close to being 'Rhythmic gymnastics on ice'.

If you dislike 'fastest and strongest' 'last man standing' winning,Olympics and Olympic sports is not for you, there are many ice shows, enjoy.
 

KOBOT37

Match Penalty
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
and ISU is never going to create separate sport for what you call 'acrobatics', they do have data and know damn well that 'singles ice dancing' won't attract much following :biggrin:

and of course, they do not want to have a sport which will be entirely subjective :biggrin: In other words if you liked Adelina beating Yuna in Sochi, You will absolutely love judging at 'singles ice dancing' :biggrin:
 

Flutzel

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 30, 2019
Canada has solo dance events in the lower levels of competitive figure skating, just not at the national or international level.

I see! I wonder if there's videos of those sometimes. I'd love to see some singles Ice Dance competitions.

There was, just it was known under the name "compulsory figures." Nobody actually liked it. ;)

This may be the cynical marketing person in me, but if the non-jumpy Singles discipline apparently exists, but doesn't get enough views (or not enough attention from athletes wanting to go into the sport, I don't know which) to warrant inclusion at bigger events, then wouldn't it be a bad move to push the more popular discipline in that direction?
 

jenm

The Last One Degree
Medalist
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
i have to say i don’t enjoy this forum anymore. there’s just some rude, condescending posters so this is my last post. i will just post some fan art in the fanfest once in a while. but as far as discussions go, this is it for my peace of mind. i hope y’all enjoy being condescending jerks.

once in a while, you encounter someone who triggers your heart problem. so, thank you.
 

KOBOT37

Match Penalty
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
I see! I wonder if there's videos of those sometimes. I'd love to see some singles Ice Dance competitions.



This may be the cynical marketing person in me, but if the non-jumpy Singles discipline apparently exists, but doesn't get enough views (or not enough attention from athletes wanting to go into the sport, I don't know which) to warrant inclusion at bigger events, then wouldn't it be a bad move to push the more popular discipline in that direction?

Of course it is.

And of course, ISU isn't doing that.

At most, ISU will simply raise age limit to 18 in attempt to increase longevity of careers (although, that wont solve the problem at all). Only real reason what may force ISU to decrease advantage of Quad jumps is dominance of One country(which isn't good for sports marketing wise) but with appearance of Japanese, Korean and American Quad Jumpers in Ladies, I doubt it comes to that.
 

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Yes, Absolutely, Figure skating is very close to being 'Rhythmic gymnastics on ice'.

I'd love to see a display routine with skaters using RSG hand apparatus like ribbon (shorter?) and ball, these should be able to be incorporated in a stunning display. You'll find some ballet moves common in both sports suitable to be performed on ice.

No skater has the skill obviously and perhaps only a few RSG can skate a little. Hoop might be possible too in synchronised group displays. Rope and clubs are too dynamic and even dangerous on ice.

Simple RSG training will fit nicely in Zelezhnyakov's training plans.
 

macy

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
I have no problem with jumps. FYI. After all, my favorite skater is known for her big beautiful jumps.
I just think that it is not fair to elevate jumps so much and then ignore the other elements. They should all work to create a well-balanced program.
And some can jump quads which is an incredible feat but like, most of the program duration is taken up by choreo, steps, spins, presentation, etc.
Different skaters, different strengths. I’m all for rewarding jumps but i’m also for rewarding the other elements and artistry better than it is today and if th winner has both, that’s amazing. Alena and Rika are good examples.

completely agree- the problem does not lie within doing difficult jumps, it lies within the current base value of other elements and 2nd part of the score. i don't see an issue with making the rest of the required technical content and PCS more valuable without degrading the BV of quads.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
This problem has one root cause,apart of the obvious one: Some people here simply do not want to watch an athletic competition.

Hence why 'go watch track and field' 'acrobatics on ice', 'gymnastics on ice' and etc comment resurface every once in a while.

Yes, Absolutely, Figure skating is very close to being 'Rhythmic gymnastics on ice'.

If you dislike 'fastest and strongest' 'last man standing' winning,Olympics and Olympic sports is not for you, there are many ice shows, enjoy.

I love athletic completions. I love figure skating. I have since 1970.

I do not want to watch a sport that is comprised only of counting revolutions in the air and landings on one feet. That is not the sport of figure skating.

So I will continue to watch this sport where edges, flow, artistic impression, performance skill, musicality, spins, transitions and step sequences still count for something:agree: I wish they counted for more.:yes:

But if someone wants to start a sport based only on ice challenge type jumps, I say go for it. And enjoy:biggrin:
 

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
Quadless Jason Brown winning silver over many multiquadsters at 4CC, quadless Kostornaia winning almost all major competitions over quadgirls - and they complains that current system pushes jumps too much :scratch3:

i honestly wish this would happen. i have no issue with anyone doing 3As or quads, i love watching them, but the problem is doing those jumps is the only way to win because they are the point grabbers. a skater with other strengths than jumping has no way to catch up and hardly a chance to podium at most events. the only strength that is really rewarded is jumping. i want to see all kinds of technical elements scored more evenly across the board (jumps, spins and choreo/step sequences), but also still keeping in mind difficulty levels and GOE. spins and step sequences are harder than they look and require a lot of stamina and aren't scored accordingly.

And again say that to Jason Brown and Kostornaia - OR say that to Konrad Orzell :biggrin: It seems you all just are failing to notice obvious hidden effect spins and steps have. Great spins and stepsequences affects PCS significantly. It's not in the rules - but effect is there nevertheless. Therefore an advantage spins and steps are giving to skater is much bigger than only BV+GOE ;)

I think that presentation and athleticism should have equal value. The number of men (and women) who can successfully and consistently land quads is few. And I DO think it's just as hard to get a level 4 spin as rotate 4 times in the air. If it wasn't as hard you would see more skaters getting level 4 spins!

I really recommend to watch RusJrNat ladies event. ALL 18 juniors and pre-juniors there did great lv4 spins while only 5 jumped quads and 3A :rolleye:

At most, ISU will simply raise age limit to 18 in attempt to increase longevity of careers (although, that wont solve the problem at all). Only real reason what may force ISU to decrease advantage of Quad jumps is dominance of One country(which isn't good for sports marketing wise) but with appearance of Japanese, Korean and American Quad Jumpers in Ladies, I doubt it comes to that.

It's not only will not solve the problem - it will have pure opposite effect. Increasing the age will shorten duration of adult careers since majority of skaters are not going to end their careers later only because they started it later. After 20 y.o. there appears too many factors contributing to ending career decisions - health and accumulated injuries, lack of finances and training conditions, personal life, need to get good education, changing life priorities, changing body and physiology, lots of adult life temptations, better jobs with bigger salary being available etc. Current raising age narration reminds me symptomatical treatment - it tries to hide symptoms of malady instead of treating the cause. And the cause of the problem is limited quotes system resulting in too high competition. Moreover, the problem is only in ladies and only in one country.
 

alexaa

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 27, 2018
Just an observation, there are more people going to the acrobatic on ice competition than people going to the more artistic ice shows in US, and probably China.

I don’t see any declining interest on competitions in Japan and Russia due to this acrobatic on ice trend.

And, ISU reduced the base value of quads back in 2018, and limited the repetition of quads in programs. Jason and Kevin consistently beat skaters with more quad attempts this season.

I see how the PCS is scored properly more a problem than anything else.
 

KOBOT37

Match Penalty
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
I do not want to watch a sport that is comprised only of counting revolutions in the air and landings on one feet.

There is much more to technical score (as people call it- 'acrobatics on ice') than just jumping.

Pretty much anything other than 'musicality' and 'presentation' involves strength and endurance (from Spins to step sequences),so if somebody doesn't like Figure Skating turning into Gymnastics on Ice, he most likely doesn't like (for example) Biellmann spin,either :biggrin:
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
i have to say i don’t enjoy this forum anymore. there’s just some rude, condescending posters so this is my last post. i will just post some fan art in the fanfest once in a while. but as far as discussions go, this is it for my peace of mind. i hope y’all enjoy being condescending jerks.

once in a while, you encounter someone who triggers your heart problem. so, thank you.

Fan Fests are great places!

No one can tell me what this sport is and is not; I am too old for that:laugh: And that so many people seem to think posters spend time thinking about countries and coaches. :shrug: they might be thinking about it, but I could care less. ;)

Jumping off, as an example of what is great about skating, the two best comps I’ve seen this year have been 4CC men’s and US Nats mens, so many different styles of excellent skating:hap10: As long as those kinds of comps continue, I’ll keep watching:)
 

KOBOT37

Match Penalty
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
I wish they counted for more.:yes:

It can be argued that 'Skating skills' need to bring more points, but I doubt it would change much result wise, contrary to popular belief, FS elite isn't full of jumping machines with bad skating skills :biggrin: For example, if difference in base values between Level 3 step sequence and level 4 step sequence was same as it is between quad and triple jumps, assuming step sequences were judged correctly (which wont happen), scores of non 'acrobatic' skaters would raise considerably but so would be scores of 'acrobats' and the difference makers would still be jumps (and training would become much more endurance oriented :biggrin:)

Regarding to Musicality, artistry, presentation and etc... I think that it is given more points than it deserves, this is a sport and in a sport,IMO artistry shouldn't be more than symbolic.
 

Nimyue

On the Ice
Joined
May 15, 2018
I see how the PCS is scored properly more a problem than anything else.

THIS!

The rules don't need to be changed. The judging needs to correctly apply the existing rules. Example A Mariah Bell and Alyssa Liu at US Nationals. How any judge can give Alyssa 8s and 9s on PCS I will NEVER understand. For starters, you're telling her, you don't need to improve. You're not giving her anything to strive for or to stick around in the sport for. Her PCS scores should be in the 6s and 7s. She is very talented, but her skating skills, musicality, interpretation, and over all packagin is just not at the same level as Mariah or Bradie.

All you need to do is give these young jumping quadsters appropriate PCS scores. For the 3As, Kostornaia is probably deserving of her 8s and 9s, Scherbakova could probably see 7s and 8s, Trusove, 6s and 7s. I mean I LOVE watchign Trusova. She's awesome, but go watch her programs again. She mostly does crossovers between elements. Understandably so, as she has so many quads, but still her PCS should reflect that.
 

PyeongChang2018

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
It should not always be about which princess outprincesses all other princesses. We need tomboys to be successful too and tear the princesses down once in a while.

A lot of ingrained misogyny right there. You're equating being a better jumper with being a tomboy, yes?

Kim Yuna and Katarina Witt did not present as typical "princesses," to use your term. They could be delicate, sure, but they were also strong, fiery women.

Artistry in this sport is really dying. This thread and my artistry thread were created for a reason. And frankly, it seems that a lot of people just don't have the eye for it. Yes, sometimes it's just a difference in taste, but honestly I think a lot of times people are just distracted by a supple body, flexibility, and elegant flowing movement. There's more to artistry than just that... there's story, action, musicality, use of the gaze, et cetera...I think right now for Ladies skating, the Japanese girls and women and the older Russian women are essentially the only skaters who have understanding of this.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Artistry in this sport is really dying. This thread and my artistry thread were created for a reason. And frankly, it seems that a lot of people just don't have the eye for it. Yes, sometimes it's just a difference in taste, but honestly I think a lot of times people are just distracted by a supple body, flexibility, and elegant flowing movement. There's more to artistry than just that... there's story, action, musicality, use of the gaze, et cetera...I think right now for Ladies skating, the Japanese girls and women and the older Russian women are essentially the only skaters who have understanding of this.

I don't think artistry is necessarily dying. I just think that artistic programs aren't winning because some skaters with mediocre programs are so far ahead of the others technically. No modification of the scoring system is going to result in a 7 triple program beating a 3 or 4 quad program. Winning a sporting event should largely reflect sporting excellence and successful risk taking, and if two programs are miles apart in difficulty then the scoring has to reflect that. If you want to reduce the weight of jumps, which account for virtually all the risk in a program, you might as well make ladies skating ladies ice dancing.
 
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