Is figure skating becoming acrobatics on ice? | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Is figure skating becoming acrobatics on ice?

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
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Jan 5, 2019
Artistry in this sport is really dying. This thread and my artistry thread were created for a reason. And frankly, it seems that a lot of people just don't have the eye for it. Yes, sometimes it's just a difference in taste, but honestly I think a lot of times people are just distracted by a supple body, flexibility, and elegant flowing movement. There's more to artistry than just that... there's story, action, musicality, use of the gaze, et cetera...I think right now for Ladies skating, the Japanese girls and women and the older Russian women are essentially the only skaters who have understanding of this.

Valiyeva? Use of the gaze is only visible in close up on TV and to the happy few front row spectators. Callers and judges should better watch the blades ;-)
 

noskates

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 11, 2012
i have to say i don’t enjoy this forum anymore. there’s just some rude, condescending posters so this is my last post. i will just post some fan art in the fanfest once in a while. but as far as discussions go, this is it for my peace of mind. i hope y’all enjoy being condescending jerks.

once in a while, you encounter someone who triggers your heart problem. so, thank you.

Don't go. You have to learn to ignore posts that upset you. There will always be posters who don't agree with you - sometimes even with purpose - but there are many more that like to discuss figure skating. This artistry vs. athleticism will always be a tender subject and there is no right answer. It's what a person likes and how they interpret those styles. There are many people that don't like the direction the sport is going in because of the quad-centric trend. But there are many more like myself that prefer the Jason Browns of the sport that still bring the artistry to the ice. I actually like seeing quads when they are not the whole focus of the program, fit into the choreography, don't take half the rink to set up, and don't ruin the flow of the performance. There are a few skaters that pull that off - there are many many more that don't. The sport is going to keep changing just like other sports are.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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Dec 29, 2013
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i have to say i don’t enjoy this forum anymore. there’s just some rude, condescending posters so this is my last post. i will just post some fan art in the fanfest once in a while. but as far as discussions go, this is it for my peace of mind. i hope y’all enjoy being condescending jerks.

once in a while, you encounter someone who triggers your heart problem. so, thank you.

Well this would be a tremendous loss for the forum. Even when we have had our disagreements I’ve always enjoyed and looked forward to your posts. I do hope you’ll reconsider and I certainly understand but I would be quite sad. I post far less often because of reasons I’ll just leave to the imagination but not dissimilar to yours :).

As to the actual topic of this thread ...saying people don’t understand the scoring system and implying somehow 6.0 is easy to understand is very assuming and something I disagree with. I strongly disagree that we have skaters who just offer jumps and nothing in between just as I don’t think we need to go to ice shows to expect to find purposeful presentation.

I think quads deserve respect! I just rewatched Yuzu’s amazing StepSeq during the 2016 WC and was blown away by the commitment and execution. It’s beautiful and embodies excellent edge control and an exciting array of technical wizardry that the crowd frenzied over. No way would I have given it more points than some of the quads he was landing but Ymmv. Those jumps certainly deserve an edge over skaters only doing triples for obvious reasons I don’t feel a need to address.

To me the thing that needs addressing is getting the judges to utilize the GOE scale better. Like most jumps should be receiving around zero GOE as the standard of a quality jump IMO. They need to leave room for jumps with excellent characteristics to gain somewhat of an advantage and not be shy with throwing low marks at dicey but acceptable jumps. The scale and the rules are in place but I think few would agree that they are being utilized. Not sure how to achieve this but a few short videos where the judges are randomly asked to explain how they chose a few random marks would be interesting. Heck...throw them a curve ball and ask them to rescore a few elements and then show them what marks they actually gave. Removing them from the commotion of a live event will probably change their marks some but could create interesting dialogue to potentially reveal a better understanding of how the scoring works. Might be fun too :devil:

I certainly don’t think calling the sport Acrobatics on Ice is very fair or reflective of the efforts we see. A lot of work goes into even the most difficult programs and a lot of us see the artistic vision of several skaters far too often deemed non artistic or as only doing jumps jumps jumps.
 

brightphoton

Medalist
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
By a timely co-incidence an article just today showed up in my newsfeed where the sport of golf seems to be having somewhat similar discussions. (They interviewed Tiger Woods extensively.)

It seems that in golf the problem is that nowadays the top pros can hit the ball too far. This is both because the players have become stronger and more athletic, and also (mainly) because equipment is getting better. This causes a big problem for golf course designers. If a course is sufficiently long to pose a challenge to the very top guys, then regular players (where the courses make their bread and butter) cannot play it at all, no matter how much they try to compensate by shortening the tees, easy hole placements, etc.

One suggested solution is called "bifurcation" in golf circles. There would be separate courses, separate rules, separate equipment allowed, etc. for amateur/recreational players, reserving just a few suoer-courses for major pro tournaments.

By the way, speaking of artistry, Tiger Woods himself has not ruled out the possibility of winning another major or two before he's done. (Woods has won 15 majors, chasing Jack Nicklaus' record of 18. After several recent years of struggle Woods won the 2019 Master's for number 15). In terms of artistry versus tech, the Master's is really the only major tournament that he can win any more. The others are too long and favor the younger guys who can whack their drives a country mile. Augusta National is somewhat shorter and sweeter. You win by shaping your irons beautifully and also by having the experience to know how each hole needs to be handled.

Who are "regular" players? Do you mean Joe and David from the Woody Hills county golf club, or professional golf players who are not Tiger Woods?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Show the PCS mark for each judge (5 scores combined into 1) out of 10, and ‘reverse factor’ the TES score so that it is too ‘out of 10’ (but not quite).

E.g. In Men’s Longs divide the TES out of 10 and show that for each judge. ...

Can you elaborate on this system a little more? Is the "out of ten" factor based on the average of all competitors, or does each skater have his own?

Suppose Hanyu got 110 TES and 90 PCS. So his factor is 1.22. What happens now? Do the judges reduce his TES by that amount, so now he has 90 TES and 90 PCS?

I must be misunderstanding the proposal. This would just automatically make each stater's total equal to exactly half of the PCS, no matter what the TES is. (?)
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Well this would be a tremendous loss for the forum. Even when we have had our disagreements I’ve always enjoyed and looked forward to your posts. I do hope you’ll reconsider and I certainly understand but I would be quite sad. I post far less often because of reasons I’ll just leave to the imagination but not dissimilar to yours :).

I second that sentiment, especially about JenM (But I still post a lot anyway. :) )

As to the actual topic of this thread ...saying people don’t understand the scoring system and implying somehow 6.0 is easy to understand is very assuming and something I disagree with.

In 6.0 the way to win is to get a 1st place ordinal from the majority of the judges. It's like an election -- whoever gets the most votes, wins. The way to win in IJS is to get the highest number of points. It's like a basketball game. If you score 100 points and the other guy only scores 95, then you win. To me, in either system, what's not to understand?

The part of 6.0 that is "hard to understand" is what happens when no one gets a majority. (Same as an election -- a third party candidate can enter and steal 1st place ordinals from the front-runner.) Yes, that part is complicated and can result in unsatisfying outcomes, just like a in U.S. Presidential election where the candidate who wins the popular vote loses to another candidate in the Electoral College.

In both systems, the 2nd mark/program components are a little opaque because we don't know why each judge gave the mark that he/she did (just like we don't know why a voter supported this candidate rather that that one). To my way of thinking, having a list of bullet points, ISU videos about what is regarded as acceptable or outstanding technique, etc., etc., can help, equally in either system.

Both systems still must face the question under discussion in this thread -- how to balance the performance art aspect of figure skating with the whiz-bang feats of heroic derring-do.
 
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KatGrace1925

Medalist
Joined
Apr 4, 2016
I think one thing we need to mention is there was a discussion this week about how iffy it is that Jason Brown with no quad beat kids with quads. I personally think Jason Brown shows that if someone pushes the artistic level hard enough they can overcome at least some of those with high tech. Jason's only issue would be passing those who do have good artistry and high TES together but that's how the system should work, where having both is the preferred but those who are either or land in a variety of places.

My biggest problem with skating now is high PCS awarded to those who jump difficult jumps, regardless of performance. We should see a wider range on PCS awarded but we don't. PCS often gets inflated when TES goes up and that's my main problem. But there are instances where it doesn't but also instances where it does. What it comes down to is it's not the jumps ruining skating but the usual politiking.
 

ladyjane

Medalist
Joined
Jun 26, 2012
Country
Netherlands
I have no problem with jumps. FYI. After all, my favorite skater is known for her big beautiful jumps.
I just think that it is not fair to elevate jumps so much and then ignore the other elements. They should all work to create a well-balanced program.
And some can jump quads which is an incredible feat but like, most of the program duration is taken up by choreo, steps, spins, presentation, etc.
Different skaters, different strengths. I’m all for rewarding jumps but i’m also for rewarding the other elements and artistry better than it is today and if th winner has both, that’s amazing. Alena and Rika are good examples.

Please don't leave. Anyone who can explain so clearly what you think is important in the sport of Figure Skating (and I happen to agree with you) is a gem to a forum like this. X
 

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
Artistry in this sport is really dying. This thread and my artistry thread were created for a reason. And frankly, it seems that a lot of people just don't have the eye for it. Yes, sometimes it's just a difference in taste, but honestly I think a lot of times people are just distracted by a supple body, flexibility, and elegant flowing movement.
Because of young Russian ladies "supple body, flexibility, and elegant flowing movement" is just a distraction now, eh? :sarcasm: How convenient :laugh: What next will be declared as distraction? Complex footwork, good transitions and skating skills? :rolleye:
There's more to artistry than just that... there's story, action, musicality, use of the gaze, et cetera...I think right now for Ladies skating, the Japanese girls and women and the older Russian women are essentially the only skaters who have understanding of this.
And there are plenty of that in young Russians performances :confused2: The whole RusJrNat consisted of 18 mini-theatricals on ice - as Ted Barton said "What better you want to watch?". Well, if we talking about seniors only
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viVdCPAcHrw
pay attention what commentators are saying about that "quad-jumping bean" artistry. It's pretty clear what they feel even if it's in Italian :biggrin:
 

rosy14

Final Flight
Joined
Apr 2, 2016
Because of young Russian ladies "supple body, flexibility, and elegant flowing movement" is just a distraction now, eh? :sarcasm: How convenient :laugh: What next will be declared as distraction? Complex footwork, good transitions and skating skills? :rolleye:

And there are plenty of that in young Russians performances :confused2: The whole RusJrNat consisted of 18 mini-theatricals on ice - as Ted Barton said "What better you want to watch?". Well, if we talking about seniors only
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viVdCPAcHrw
pay attention what commentators are saying about that "quad-jumping bean" artistry. It's pretty clear what they feel even if it's in Italian :biggrin:

Sir,
I’d not use the Italian commentators (RAI) because one, the “journalist” , doesn’t understand anything about figure skating and cries “wonderful, amazing” to all the skaters, from n.36 to number 1, at least 10 times per skater. The other one, who is a valued coach, has too many ties and links with all the big federations to be truly objective in her comments. If Anna Scherbakova was , say, Uzbeka and training in Taipei, no cries and “wow” would come from the two.
I’m Italian, I know what I’m saying.
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
In 6.0 the way to win is to get a 1st place ordinal from the majority of the judges. It's like an election -- whoever gets the most votes, wins. The way to win in IJS is to get the highest number of points. It's like a basketball game. If you score 100 points and the other guy only scores 95, then you win. To me, in either system, what's not to understand?

If you compare that to political election - well, in politics you first hear both sides and then decide. In 6.0 system you first gave some amount of "votes" to the one subject who just "spoke" and reserved bigger amount for the other ones who did not "speak" yet.
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
Artistry in this sport is really dying. This thread and my artistry thread were created for a reason. And frankly, it seems that a lot of people just don't have the eye for it. Yes, sometimes it's just a difference in taste, but honestly I think a lot of times people are just distracted by a supple body, flexibility, and elegant flowing movement. There's more to artistry than just that... there's story, action, musicality, use of the gaze, et cetera...I think right now for Ladies skating, the Japanese girls and women and the older Russian women are essentially the only skaters who have understanding of this.

Who can say his eye for "artistry" is better than the other ones. The problem is that people with this opinion ofthen consider themselves as someones who can "measure" artistry. And say, this "artistry" is worth 5 and this artistry is worth 10. Like in the scene from Dead Poets Society. "How can you describe poetry like an American Bandstand. I like Byron, I give 42 but I can't dance to it." Just like Keating have said: "Excr..."

It's so many different styles, way how to express yourself, idea of the program, music, not just the one prefered mostly by some north american fans. It's very different from mine. E.g. what Disney calls fairy tale is just cheap kitch for me (not because of budget). and I very similarly see many of so called artistic programs, exaggerated display of emotions (no matter if positive or negative), hawking to the audience. I much more prefer less opulent style, inward experience, where I can look and understand what somebody is feeling and doing without it being served directly under my nose.

Though I don't say my way is better, but I definitely say my way is not worse. Incessant imposing of only particular standars, particular ways, particular imagination of what all this "artistry" should be just results in one big no from me.
 

ladyjane

Medalist
Joined
Jun 26, 2012
Country
Netherlands
I'm going to take the question about acrobatics quite literally, and then the answer is a definite 'no'. If that were the case we would see the great one foot landing back flip (remember the wonderful French skater who could do this) as well as the more generic back flips with two footed landings in competition all the time. We don't see them. Back flips are and will remain forbidden in competition because they turn the sport into acrobatics.

We can discuss jump content, PCS and artistry to our heart's content (and I've noticed many of us on this forum do) but if Figure Skating were to become truly acrobatic, I have the distinct feeling it would no longer even be considered a sport at all, and maybe not even an artistic performance, but something - yeah - acrobatic. Admirable, certainly, spectacular even. But neither a sport or an art form to be honest.

In general I like and enjoy the sport because to me it's more fun than football and other team sports (with balls, kicks, and hits) although Synchronised skating is a team sport that I enjoy, it's more fun than speed sports whether on skates, feet or otherwise, and it's definitely the the only sport in which some competitors can move me and make me cry. I like jumps, it was my reason for enjoying the men's discipline in the 90s and early 00s. They're not everything though. I like spins and steps (and, dare I say it, spirals). But, pairs will always remain my firm favourite - and definitely not because of adagio moves but preferably the combination of jumps, dance and typical pairs elements. I love twists.

Does this add to the discussion here? Probably not. Skip my post if you like.
 

Mawwerg

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
:eek:topic: I think the first thing current system should take care of are GOEs. I believe judges should have an opportunity to review any element and a responsibility to properly fill all of the boxes for each element. So skaters and fans after a competition could see not only a mark but also why the judge gave this mark to this skater.
 

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
It's much easier to do lvl 4 spin than a jump with four rotations. The current "not-likefest" against jumps has the very same roots like "age eligibility shoud be increased".

There is a saying:
"If you can't beat them, join them."

This now transformed into:
"If you can't beat them, change the rules."

Oh please. It's not all about "we're jealous of skaters who can do quads and 3As." There are those of us who genuinely prefer SKATING to JUMPING.

But for me it's all about BALANCE and appreciating ALL the aspects of skating. Otherwise I might as well become a hockey fan.
 

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
Who can say his eye for "artistry" is better than the other ones. The problem is that people with this opinion ofthen consider themselves as someones who can "measure" artistry. And say, this "artistry" is worth 5 and this artistry is worth 10. Like in the scene from Dead Poets Society. "How can you describe poetry like an American Bandstand. I like Byron, I give 42 but I can't dance to it." Just like Keating have said: "Excr..."

It's so many different styles, way how to express yourself, idea of the program, music, not just the one prefered mostly by some north american fans. It's very different from mine. E.g. what Disney calls fairy tale is just cheap kitch for me (not because of budget). and I very similarly see many of so called artistic programs, exaggerated display of emotions (no matter if positive or negative), hawking to the audience. I much more prefer less opulent style, inward experience, where I can look and understand what somebody is feeling and doing without it being served directly under my nose.

Though I don't say my way is better, but I definitely say my way is not worse. Incessant imposing of only particular standars, particular ways, particular imagination of what all this "artistry" should be just results in one big no from me.

Sure, and I find some Russian skaters overdramatic to the point of camp. Yes Ms. Bestemianova, I am thinking of you, even though you have provided me with endless hours of pure hilarity.
 

Harriet

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Country
Australia
It is odd, I think, how the discussion of 'acrobatics' in figure skating only ever seems to focus on singles skaters and their jumps. What about lifts, and particularly the divide in ice dance between preferences for overtly strength-based gymnastic/acrobatic lifts and flowing dancelike lifts that camouflage effort? What about throw jumps, or the increasing contortions pairs lifts are required to include to get points? What about spin positions?

All of those hit the definition of 'acrobatic' far more than any jump, to my eyes.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
If you compare that to political election - well, in politics you first hear both sides and then decide. In 6.0 system you first gave some amount of "votes" to the one subject who just "spoke" and reserved bigger amount for the other ones who did not "speak" yet.

Well, that's pretty straightforward. In 6.0 skating, as in a political election, you hear the first candidate and you jot down some shorthand notes as a memory aid: "I like this candidate pretty well, I'll put down down 5.7 to help me remember -- leaving room for the possibility that I will like the next candidate even better."

If you like the second candidate better, you jot down 5.8. If you like the first candidate better, then you give the second a 5.6.

In any case, you do not give the winner 5.7 "votes," only 1: the first place ordinal.

What's wrong with that?
 
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ladyjane

Medalist
Joined
Jun 26, 2012
Country
Netherlands
It is odd, I think, how the discussion of 'acrobatics' in figure skating only ever seems to focus on singles skaters and their jumps. What about lifts, and particularly the divide in ice dance between preferences for overtly strength-based gymnastic/acrobatic lifts and flowing dancelike lifts that camouflage effort? What about throw jumps, or the increasing contortions pairs lifts are required to include to get points? What about spin positions?

All of those hit the definition of 'acrobatic' far more than any jump, to my eyes.

You're absolutely right Harriet, That's why I mentioned the back flips. I was just rewatching Aljona's and Bruno's Olympic Free Skate (I do that quite often) and thinking about this point of contortions in lifts. Which Aljona and Bruno did not have - although they certainly were level 4 and all that. And throw jumps are the thing really (or, if you like, assisted jumps), typically pairs element and pretty spectacular, double, triple or quad. Far more acrobatic than a quad by a single. Still, nobody is calling the Pairs too acrobatic or too jumps focused. Little grin, I wish they would do better. In fact the pairs have been steered towards less jumpy programmes compared to a few years ago. Oh, and I love it that pairs have become more dancy in between those elements. But on the whole, some pairs are really getting close to acrobatic, more so than singles. Hmmf...still love pairs best.
 
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