Is figure skating becoming acrobatics on ice? | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Is figure skating becoming acrobatics on ice?

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
It is odd, I think, how the discussion of 'acrobatics' in figure skating only ever seems to focus on singles skaters and their jumps. What about lifts, and particularly the divide in ice dance between preferences for overtly strength-based gymnastic/acrobatic lifts and flowing dancelike lifts that camouflage effort? What about throw jumps, or the increasing contortions pairs lifts are required to include to get points? What about spin positions?

All of those hit the definition of 'acrobatic' far more than any jump, to my eyes.

All very valid points.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I’d not use the Italian commentators (RAI) because one, the “journalist” , doesn’t understand anything about figure skating and cries “wonderful, amazing” to all the skaters, from n.36 to number 1, at least 10 times per skater. .

He is the Italian Scott Hamilton. :)

When Scott Hamilton commentates on American TV (although he does know something about figure skating) he just can't find it in his heart to say anything critical about anyone. His commentary is filled with, "Wow! Look at that! She did a triple Salchow!!!"
 

KatGrace1925

Medalist
Joined
Apr 4, 2016
I think we need to talk about something more important, when did figure skating become knee slides on ice? It feels like most skaters are doing knee slides these days, the ISU should ban. :laugh:
 

ladyjane

Medalist
Joined
Jun 26, 2012
Country
Netherlands
He is the Italian Scott Hamilton. :)

When Scott Hamilton commentates on American TV (although he does know something about figure skating) he just can't find it in his heart to say anything critical about anyone. His commentary is filled with, "Wow! Look at that! She did a triple Salchow!!!"

But Scott is just a nice guy who, as you say, can't find it in his heart to say anything critical about anyone. Ted has found a way though to do this without denigrating the skater. I recall him commenting on a young Dutch skater who was last in his first JGP outing. He mentioned the mistakes (there were many), but he also prized the determination and the focus of this boy. Nothing bad about the boy himself who of course was doing his best (they all do) but his programme was below par, and he pointed out the mistakes - after the programme as is Ted's way,
 

skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Is figure skating becoming acrobatics on ice? :think:
https://apnews.com/ad2277d338bb66f3d6bef7c83891db8c


:think:

I think yes as well. Pairs is very acrobatic. Even dance has many difficult rotational lifts. In general I think it is unavoidable that technical side is pushed to the max. It is in every discipline very difficult. I guess it is interesting because we see amazing feats that happen in the air and while I too complain that spirals are gone I understand how the athletes think. If the sport survives ie ifbthe earth survives I believe it will be in a very different form say 30 years from now. For one the ice will be melting in most places. But that is a depressing thought. Seriously, I believe the sport is maxing out as to what skaters can do. I have said before all arts sciences and disciplines are reaching a zenith before the end times. If one thinks the earth will survive the climate disaster then one foresees a future for elite sports. Personally I know that the future is not very long. So enjoy every minute of skating and the wonderful videos we can see on YouTube. Enjoy every minute of good health you have. I hope there are great skating shows in heaven. Can you imagine? I truly hope there is a heaven because surely Henie is still skating and that to see up close, lol!
 

skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Is figure skating becoming acrobatics on ice? :think:
https://apnews.com/ad2277d338bb66f3d6bef7c83891db8c


:think:

I think yes as well. Pairs is very acrobatic. Even dance has many difficult rotational lifts. In general I think it is unavoidable that technical side is pushed to the max. It is in every discipline very difficult. I guess it is interesting because we see amazing feats that happen in the air and while I too complain that spirals are gone I understand how the athletes think. If the sport survives ie ifbthe earth survives I believe it will be in a very different form say 30 years from now. For one the ice will be melting in most places. But that is a depressing thought. Seriously, I believe the sport is maxing out as to what skaters can do. I have said before all arts sciences and disciplines are reaching a zenith before the end times. If one thinks the earth will survive the climate disaster then one foresees a future for elite sports. Personally I know that the future is not very long. So enjoy every minute of skating and the wonderful videos we can see on YouTube. Enjoy every minute of good health you have. I hope there are great skating shows in heaven. Can you imagine? I truly hope there is a heaven because surely Henie is still skating and that I want to see up close, lol!
 

ladyjane

Medalist
Joined
Jun 26, 2012
Country
Netherlands
I think yes as well. Pairs is very acrobatic. Even dance has many difficult rotational lifts. In general I think it is unavoidable that technical side is pushed to the max. It is in every discipline very difficult. I guess it is interesting because we see amazing feats that happen in the air and while I too complain that spirals are gone I understand how the athletes think. If the sport survives ie ifbthe earth survives I believe it will be in a very different form say 30 years from now. For one the ice will be melting in most places. But that is a depressing thought. Seriously, I believe the sport is maxing out as to what skaters can do. I have said before all arts sciences and disciplines are reaching a zenith before the end times. If one thinks the earth will survive the climate disaster then one foresees a future for elite sports. Personally I know that the future is not very long. So enjoy every minute of skating and the wonderful videos we can see on YouTube. Enjoy every minute of good health you have. I hope there are great skating shows in heaven. Can you imagine? I truly hope there is a heaven because surely Henie is still skating and that I want to see up close, lol!

Not going into the climate issues (I have my own view on those) but I always think Heaven must be a boring place until I heard there were skating shows there. Yay!
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I must be misunderstanding the proposal. This would just automatically make each stater's total equal to exactly half of the PCS, no matter what the TES is. (?)

I think the proposal is to standardize the technical score, with the highest TES score of the event being 10. I don't think this would work because the top skater could drastically affect the placements below.

For example, if you had the LP with skater X coming in with 10, Y coming in with 8.2, and Z coming in with 8.1, if X again placed first and Z scored slightly better than Y, Y or Z could finish ahead of the other depending solely on how well X skated the LP.
 

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Country
Olympics
I think we need to talk about something more important, when did figure skating become knee slides on ice? It feels like most skaters are doing knee slides these days, the ISU should ban. :laugh:

It became a required element for many disciplines (at least ice dance) so that's why. That's not something as a skater that is enjoyable especially for ladies, it tears the heck out of your knee and draws blood.


1.7. CHOREOGRAPHIC ELEMENTS
1.7.1. ADDITIONAL PRINCIPLES OF CALLING
1. If a Choreographic Element is required:
a) Choreographic Spinning Movement / Sliding Movement / Character Step Sequence can be performed anywhere in the program.
b) Choreographic Dance Lift shall be performed after the required Dance Lifts and Choreographic Twizzling Movements are to be performed after the
required Set of Twizzles.
c) Subsequent Choreographic Spinning Movements, Choreographic Twizzling Movements and Choreographic Character Step Sequence shall not be
identified.
d) Subsequent Dance Lifts shall be identified as an Additional Element (see additional principles of calling Dance Lifts).
e) Subsequent sliding movements, which are identified as Illegal Element/Movement and/or a Fall shall be called as Illegal Element/Movement and/or a Fall
but not considered as an Additional Element (not considered as a Choreographic Sliding Movement).
2. A Choreographic Dance Lift shall be identified at the attempt to the element and confirmed if the lifted partner is held off ice for at least 3 seconds, it is
performed after the required Dance Lifts and it is within the required number of Choreographic Elements. If a Fall or interruption occurs at the attempt of a
Choreographic Lift, the Choreographic Lift shall be identified and given No Level. It will occupy a box and will count as one of the required Choreographic
Elements,
3. A Choreographic Spinning Movement shall be identified at the attempt to the element and confirmed when two or more rotations are performed by both
partners simultaneously.
4. A Choreographic Set of Twizzling Movements shall be identified at the attempt to the element and confirmed if in the first part both partners perform at least
2 continuous travelling rotations simultaneously and in the second part, at least one of the partners has to perform at least 2 continuous rotations and
performed after the required Set of Twizzles.
5. Choreographic Sliding Movement shall be identified at the attempt to the element and confirmed when both partners execute controlled sliding movements
on the ice at the same time. The start and ending of the Choreographic Sliding Movement does not have to be performed simultaneously.

6. Choreographic Character Step Sequence shall be identified at the attempt to the element and confirmed when both partners perform steps around the short
axis from barrier to barrier.
7. Any Choreographic Element/Movement combined with another Required Element as an ‘Entry’ or ‘Exit’ feature will not be considered by the Technical Panel
as a required Choreographic Element/Movement. It will only be considered by the Technical Panel as an ‘entry’ and/or ‘exit’ feature.
8. Only the first performed required number of different Choreographic Elements shall be identified as the required Choreographic Elements.
9. For Senior FD, if a Choreographic Character Step Sequence is not performed within the first three Choreographic Elements, the third performed
Choreographic Element is identified but shall not be confirmed (No Value). The Choreographic Character Step Sequence performed as a subsequent
Choreographic Element shall not be identified.
10. If there is an illegal element(s)/movement(s) during the execution of any Choreographic Element, the deduction for an illegal element(s)/movements) will
apply and the element will receive No Value.

The above taken from Page 20 of ISU Communication No. 2257 - Updated 21.07.19
ICE DANCE
Requirements for Technical Rules with ongoing validity,
effective July 1st, 2019
Updated post Global Seminar 2019 in Frankfurt
Pages 7, 11, 12, 14, 15, 17, 20, 21, 22, 26, 27, 30, 33, 34
with changes highlighted in yellow
I. Requirements for Technical Rules with ongoing validity, effective July 1
st
 

PyeongChang2018

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Valiyeva? Use of the gaze is only visible in close up on TV and to the happy few front row spectators. Callers and judges should better watch the blades ;-)
I think Valieva is very innovative but I don't think she's an Artist. Use of the gaze has way more effect than you think. See Yuna's spiral sequence in her 2010 free skate, or the first few seconds of Miyahara's free skate from this season. You can see that from the back of an arena because their gaze is connected directly to their intention. They are skating with purpose.
Because of young Russian ladies "supple body, flexibility, and elegant flowing movement" is just a distraction now, eh? :sarcasm: How convenient :laugh: What next will be declared as distraction? Complex footwork, good transitions and skating skills? :rolleye:

And there are plenty of that in young Russians performances :confused2: The whole RusJrNat consisted of 18 mini-theatricals on ice - as Ted Barton said "What better you want to watch?". Well, if we talking about seniors only
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viVdCPAcHrw
pay attention what commentators are saying about that "quad-jumping bean" artistry. It's pretty clear what they feel even if it's in Italian :biggrin:
Don't get me wrong, flexibility and elegant flowing movement are great things. But being an Artist requires a lot more than that, and people are mistaking the factors that make up component scores for Artistry. Complex footwork alone is not artistic. Complex footwork is artistic if it is done with intention, a sense of story or a role... et cetera. Same for skating skills. Look at Arakawa's arm as she does her donut spin here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ9EaMEk74g&t=208s Watch the three at 1:52, 3:12, and 3:37...Watch her top hand in each of them. Rewatch each one. There is a story every time. Every time, she has intention behind it. She's not just doing it. This simple gesture is the mark of an Artist.

The Russian kids are elegant. They are graceful, capable of complex choreography...but they aren't Artists.

Who can say his eye for "artistry" is better than the other ones. The problem is that people with this opinion ofthen consider themselves as someones who can "measure" artistry. And say, this "artistry" is worth 5 and this artistry is worth 10. Like in the scene from Dead Poets Society. "How can you describe poetry like an American Bandstand. I like Byron, I give 42 but I can't dance to it." Just like Keating have said: "Excr..."

It's so many different styles, way how to express yourself, idea of the program, music, not just the one prefered mostly by some north american fans. It's very different from mine. E.g. what Disney calls fairy tale is just cheap kitch for me (not because of budget). and I very similarly see many of so called artistic programs, exaggerated display of emotions (no matter if positive or negative), hawking to the audience. I much more prefer less opulent style, inward experience, where I can look and understand what somebody is feeling and doing without it being served directly under my nose.

Though I don't say my way is better, but I definitely say my way is not worse. Incessant imposing of only particular standars, particular ways, particular imagination of what all this "artistry" should be just results in one big no from me.
Yes, yes, yes.
 

withwings

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 5, 2014
My biggest problem with skating now is high PCS awarded to those who jump difficult jumps, regardless of performance. We should see a wider range on PCS awarded but we don't. PCS often gets inflated when TES goes up and that's my main problem. But there are instances where it doesn't but also instances where it does. What it comes down to is it's not the jumps ruining skating but the usual politiking.



It is the essence of many so-called discussions on the forum ( lately)- politiking. Under disguise of figure skating, completely different issues are brought up.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
The Russian kids are elegant. They are graceful, capable of complex choreography...but they aren't Artists.

Hmm...I’ve never felt comfortable defining art. Not for myself and certainly not for others. I’m often surprised by how diverse my tastes can be and how over time they can completely change. Personally I find a blend of technical mastery and complex choreography to be artistic on its own merits and in most instances very enjoyable to watch. I’m not a fan of facial expressions myself but I wouldn’t say they aren’t artistic or less artistic than something more my taste.
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
Well, that's pretty straightforward. In 6.0 skating, as in a political election, you hear the first candidate and you jot down some shorthand notes as a memory aid: "I like this candidate pretty well, I'll put down down 5.7 to help me remember -- leaving room for the possibility that I will like the next candidate even better."

If you like the second candidate better, you jot down 5.8. If you like the first candidate better, then you give the second a 5.6.

In any case, you do not give the winner 5.7 "votes," only 1: the first place ordinal.

What's wrong with that?

Because the is nothing like "first gets 5.7". First gets like 4 and you have 15 more to see. Then, you maybe give 5.7 to someone, but there are ten more to come and even if they are better, you can't split three remaining spots among ten even if all of them would be better. There is irreparable system mistake in 6.0 system. It allows you to evaluate a performace only in relation to other performances on the same even, not the performance itself, but you evaluate the performance in the moment when you haven't seen other performances. It's inhonest, unjust and unfair system and it's one of best things in the world of figure skating that it no more exists.

The current system allows to evaluate what was truly performed and how well in particular skate, no matter how the others have skated. When you see a skate, you don't have to "leave a space" for what will come later, you evaluate now.
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
Oh please. It's not all about "we're jealous of skaters who can do quads and 3As." There are those of us who genuinely prefer SKATING to JUMPING.

But for me it's all about BALANCE and appreciating ALL the aspects of skating. Otherwise I might as well become a hockey fan.

I'm glad to hear it's not about the jealousy, because whatever it truly is, it strongly resembles that too often :sarcasm:

But in fact, this term "skating" is as much vague as "artistry". There are skating skills among the components, but that is described quite understandable in the rules and those who you don't like are still better in it than those allegedly "artistic" and "skating" stars.

Balance. Program, where there is a problem to execute the most simple 3-3 combos is definitely not balanced to me, it's boring no matter how the "skating" looks like.

Sure, and I find some Russian skaters overdramatic to the point of camp. Yes Ms. Bestemianova, I am thinking of you, even though you have provided me with endless hours of pure hilarity.

C'mon, thats cheap, Bestemianova is not the reason why this discussion started now.
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Canada has solo dance events in the lower levels of competitive figure skating, just not at the national or international level.

Meanwhile, the U.S. has a national final for solo dance.

Solo dance in the U.S. is open to females and males.
(The genders do not have separate events -- everyone competes together against each other. Males happen to be fewer.)

(BTW, some U.S. solo dancers end up switching to partnered ice dance very successfully -- in partnerships competing at U.S. Nats and/or internationally for Team USA.)
 

McBibus

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 7, 2019
I think quads deserve respect! I just rewatched Yuzu’s amazing StepSeq during the 2016 WC and was blown away by the commitment and execution. It’s beautiful and embodies excellent edge control and an exciting array of technical wizardry that the crowd frenzied over. No way would I have given it more points than some of the quads he was landing but Ymmv. Those jumps certainly deserve an edge over skaters only doing triples for obvious reasons I don’t feel a need to address.

Perfect!
Quads deserve recognizion and should be awarded over triple.
It's very evident in BV, as it (a bit less) for a 3A vs a 2A.
I think we all agree on this.

Now, my question is: is there any other element or PCS category in which absolute excellence can make a real difference in the score?
Choreo sequence has no levels
Steps and Spins level 4 vs level 3 have little impact compared to quads vs trix
They system seems balanced for triple jumps so, to me, it looks outdated.
Maybe we should have a possible level 5 for Spins and Steps with more strick requirements with significant base value difference over level 4.
In dance, step sequence are harshly judged: it's to much for figure, but there is room to work.

The more important aspect to me is that more elements that can make the difference force the skater to develop every skills.
Today you can basicly jump and do only damage limitation on the remaining elements: you will lose only to skater with comparable jumps scores.
The best skaters going for the win at top international events will work on every details to make a difference, but down of the podium and even on the podium in lesser competitions jumps will make the difference even if you are barely passable on the rest.


As for PCS, theoretically they could make a good difference (assuming the factor will move to 2.0 as in men since TES is now around a 100)
A 9 vs a 8 is 10 points difference, the problem here is that the judjment is shallow (the difference between the 5 categories is barely noticeable), is connected to TES (non sense), and skater racing for the same position tend to be evaluated about the same no matter what.
Just note that we are talking about a total PCS score comparing to difference of a single jump pass, and we have 7 jump passes.


You can probably guess I love Aliona and there is a lot of talking about her skating (yes I love it), but we would be fools to think she won with "artistry": she won because she fights quads with 3 trixel with amazing GOE, and it's not enough comparing BV.

We should also find a way to award clean skate (I would prefer that to harshly punish falls) because that is the essence of a performance and perfomance is what distinguish figure skating from any other sport.
To clarify the last point, if you listen to a pianist the way he convey music is much more important the some small error, but there are errors that really breaks the magic and surely you don't want to see the musicia stop and resume 4 bars later.
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
Perfect!
Quads deserve recognizion and should be awarded over triple.
It's very evident in BV, as it (a bit less) for a 3A vs a 2A.
I think we all agree on this.

Now, my question is: is there any other element or PCS category in which absolute excellence can make a real difference in the score?
Choreo sequence has no levels
Steps and Spins level 4 vs level 3 have little impact compared to quads vs trix
They system seems balanced for triple jumps so, to me, it looks outdated.
Maybe we should have a possible level 5 for Spins and Steps with more strick requirements with significant base value difference over level 4.

In dance, step sequence are harshly judged: it's to much for figure, but there is room to work.

The more important aspect to me is that more elements that can make the difference force the skater to develop every skills.
Today you can basicly jump and do only damage limitation on the remaining elements: you will lose only to skater with comparable jumps scores.
The best skaters going for the win at top international events will work on every details to make a difference, but down of the podium and even on the podium in lesser competitions jumps will make the difference even if you are barely passable on the rest.



As for PCS, theoretically they could make a good difference (assuming the factor will move to 2.0 as in men since TES is now around a 100)
A 9 vs a 8 is 10 points difference, the problem here is that the judjment is shallow (the difference between the 5 categories is barely noticeable), is connected to TES (non sense), and skater racing for the same position tend to be evaluated about the same no matter what.
Just note that we are talking about a total PCS score comparing to difference of a single jump pass, and we have 7 jump passes.


You can probably guess I love Aliona and there is a lot of talking about her skating (yes I love it), but we would be fools to think she won with "artistry": she won because she fights quads with 3 trixel with amazing GOE, and it's not enough comparing BV.

We should also find a way to award clean skate (I would prefer that to harshly punish falls) because that is the essence of a performance and perfomance is what distinguish figure skating from any other sport.
To clarify the last point, if you listen to a pianist the way he convey music is much more important the some small error, but there are errors that really breaks the magic and surely you don't want to see the musicia stop and resume 4 bars later.

If so, then the system is "outdated" for years, in men multiple quads are executed for years and for all that time I don't remember people would comply about how jumps are evaluated too much compared to spins or that jumps are killing artistry or that "skating is more than jumping" or whatever. Just when (particular) ladies tech content started to be close to men, the avalanche started to move.

To the last point: harsh punishing of falls and other mistakes should be as significant as excellent execution of the elements (which is now, fortunately). In fact too much insisting on "clean skate" led to the state when in some countries skaters stopped to execute difficult elements. That result was stagnation and when the gap started to be too big, rather than trying to make things better it changed into "if we can't do that, we will change the rules." It's nothing else than this, no matter how many words about artistry is spoken. Again, it's a sport between athletes, the most important thing has to be the actual physical perofmance on the ice, not on the "artist" watching it from behind the barrier.
 

Orlov

Medalist
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
I second that sentiment, especially about JenM (But I still post a lot anyway. :) )



In 6.0 the way to win is to get a 1st place ordinal from the majority of the judges. It's like an election -- whoever gets the most votes, wins. The way to win in IJS is to get the highest number of points. It's like a basketball game. If you score 100 points and the other guy only scores 95, then you win. To me, in either system, what's not to understand?

The part of 6.0 that is "hard to understand" is what happens when no one gets a majority. (Same as an election -- a third party candidate can enter and steal 1st place ordinals from the front-runner.) Yes, that part is complicated and can result in unsatisfying outcomes, just like a in U.S. Presidential election where the candidate who wins the popular vote loses to another candidate in the Electoral College.

In both systems, the 2nd mark/program components are a little opaque because we don't know why each judge gave the mark that he/she did (just like we don't know why a voter supported this candidate rather that that one). To my way of thinking, having a list of bullet points, ISU videos about what is regarded as acceptable or outstanding technique, etc., etc., can help, equally in either system.

Both systems still must face the question under discussion in this thread -- how to balance the performance art aspect of figure skating with the whiz-bang feats of heroic derring-do.


First, in today's FS-world, score must have an absolute value. I'm talking about the bests top-24 to get to the next season's Grand Prix stages (score is also important in the Grand Prix series itself - when places are equal, the score is compared) and the technical minimum to get on the main events. Yes, the score from different judges is not exactly comparable, but it can be interpreted as a measurement with an error, like: the skater X (number 21 in top) has the best (200+/- 4) a skater Y (number 30) has a best (187 +/- 3). But this does not fundamentally change the system and the current view - skaters can and should be compared outside of different competitions. And your "electoral" logic of 6.0-system is not able to do this.

Second, in the new system, tech is transparent and controllable. It is more difficult for a judge under such control, with detailed published protocols, to show his non-subjectivity. Even with some of GOE's subjectivity (experienced fan can easily distinguish a +4 jump from a +1 jump). Also, the skater sees their weaknesses using the protocols.

:eek:topic: Let's talk about snails :) What do you think about my suggestion that mathematics is "conditional" and our mathematics is based on the metric of our Universe because we are "metrical beings" ?
 
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