Forget the 4Axel, Hanyu should be training a 3A+3Lo combo for success | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Forget the 4Axel, Hanyu should be training a 3A+3Lo combo for success

alexaa

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 27, 2018
Well in this case it didn't 'end up' but already started out as such with the OP's first post. :biggrin:

You are right this is a thread about beating “artistically and technically less sound” Nathan from the very beginning. I am just trying to be polite to naively wish the discussion to be limited to what the topic title “3A+3L combo” is ;)
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
This combo is useless. You'd prefer 4X-3Lo backlogged

Quad + 3Loop is the useless combo, because the scoring system doesn't give any extra points for doing the most difficult combos. You get the same base value for doing +3Loop on any jump, and it's obviously going to be much more reliable to do it on the end of a 3Axel (in general, and certainly for someone like Hanyu).

3Axel+3Loop is literally what "must" be done to max out the base value of a 5 Quad and 2 Triple Axel program.

A 4T as his last jumping pass??

It would be the 8th element of his program and come at less than 3 minutes into the program, if he planned smartly. He's already been doing 4Toe as the 8th element of the program, he did it successfully at the GPF. It's better to go for the 3Axel+3Toe before the last 4Toe, because that element is worth more; it's important to make sure he gets the 3Toe out, instead of leaving it for the end and maybe only being able to a 2Toe. It's also choreographically more pleasing, having the jump types spread out, and doing a final toepick jump at the end of the rink and then going into a footwork sequence. Exciting!

Lol, wonky air position... I mean sure, not every jump is perfect all the time in competition (especially not when performed after 4-5 quads) but in general there's nothing 'wrong' with his air position.

Chen's ending 3Toe combo is always swingy and without great pop up into the air, he tends to get a bit tilted in the air and then grind into the ice on the landing. It's very much a "I'm doing this to get the base value" kind of thing, rather than something which shows high quality or is meant to have an actual effect within the choreography or interpretation. It shouldn't receive a good GOE score.

You are right this is a thread about beating “artistically and technically less sound” Nathan from the very beginning.

Astute, interesting readers will detect the notes of humor in what I wrote.
 
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kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019

silveruskate

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 20, 2019
It would be the 8th element of his program and come at less than 3 minutes into the program, if he planned smartly. He's already been doing 4Toe as the 8th element of the program, he did it successfully at the GPF. It's better to go for the 3Axel+3Toe before the last 4Toe, because that element is worth more; it's important to make sure he gets the 3Toe out, instead of leaving it for the end and maybe only being able to a 2Toe. It's also choreographically more pleasing, having the jump types spread out, and doing a final toepick jump at the end of the rink and then going into a footwork sequence. Exciting!

In GPF his 4S had a bad landing, same for 4T-eu-3F, and doubled 4T-2T with a bad landing on the 4T I believe....and didn't even attempt his 3A-3A. I'm just saying this conversation seems heavily premature. He already almost never lands his 2 4T jumps cleanly in the second half of his program already, I don't know if I've ever seen it. I'm a Yuzuru fan much more than Nathan but the maximum number of quads he has done clean + 2 3As, with good GoE is 4 isn't it? 2017 Worlds.

He hasn't done that since. Right now you're talking about 5 quads + two 3As + a loop combination.
 

silveruskate

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 20, 2019
https://s.amsu.ng/zPzWWpgmgLyN
And I see shallow inside.
When you look from side or front side it will always be ambiguous with flip. From back you can see his boot in the circle slightly. Hence, shallow inside. Especially if you watch the replay from official youtube video, and watch entire edge than it's easier to see it's an inside than from 1 photograph.

Sorry, looks like we're looking at the same photos and videos and seeing different things here. :)
 

1111bm

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 31, 2016
https://s.amsu.ng/zPzWWpgmgLyN
And I see shallow inside.
When you look from side or front side it will always be ambiguous with flip. From back you can see his boot in the circle slightly. Hence, shallow inside. Especially if you watch the replay from official youtube video, and watch entire edge than it's easier to see it's an inside than from 1 photograph.

Yeah, I rewatched that particular 4F and have to agree in this case. These are somewhat better pictures:
https://imgur.com/a/0EzyKXS
If you look at the ball of his left foot, you can see what looks to me like part of the sole of his left boot. That lighter, grey part underneath his boots, in contrast to the darker upper surface. You wouldn't be able to see that part of the sole, if the boot was angled the other way, but since it's angled to the inside of the circle = inside edge, it becomes visible.

Of course these are rather grainy pictures, so you can never be sure if what you're seeing is actually what you think it is, but that's all we got and the best angle to assess it.
 

Tahuu

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 3, 2014
Funny, you were arguing for ISU to increase the BV of 4A and now you want to forget about 4A and ask Hanyu to learn 3A3Lo so he “will not be cheesed out (maybe crushed, destroyed, or smashed is more accurate) by the less artistic and less technically sound skating of Nathan Chen.” But I don’t think Hanyu will take your advice as his goal seems to have changed from ‘losing is death to me,’ ‘I must beat Nathan with overwhelming power,’ ‘I must win Worlds,’ ‘I must win GPF,’ to ‘I just want to skate my type of skating’ and ‘land the first 4A in competition.’
 

lzxnl

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
Well, there is a second way for Yuzuru to max out his base value with 5 quads, and it's to do a quad combination. I wonder if he has it in him to do a 3A-4T? His 4T, when he's not tired af, is very, very good, and his triple axels are, obviously, fairly effortless for him (I'm not counting the times when he's already jumped 5 quads). In that case, he could do
4Lz
4Lo
3A-4T
4S
4T-Eu-3S
3A
3Lz/F-3T

Everything else is doable for him, except the 3A-4T. Wouldn't that also be a first for him to accomplish? He already has the first 4Lo, first 4T-3A, first 4T-Eu-3F, why not 3A-4T?

Speaking of which, if for some reason ISU decides to drop the deduction from sequences (because, let's face it, a 4T-3A still requires you to land a 4T well enough to step into a good 3A), then Hanyu could try
4Lz
4Lo
4S
4T-3A
4T-3A
3F-Eu-3S
3Lz

or if he's feeling spicy,
4Lz
4Lo
4S
4T-3A
4T-3A
3F-3T-3Lo
3Lz
 

Dr. Jenn

Medalist
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
Has Hanyu ever landed a -3Lo combination of any sort? I don't recall seeing him do such a combination, but I could be wrong.
 

KatGrace1925

Medalist
Joined
Apr 4, 2016
This is a very interesting analysis. Although I don’t think Yuzuru is actually planning to incorporate a 4A into his future programs, I have a feeling it is just a challenge that keeps his competetive drive going. I don’t believe Yuzuru actually thinks the 4A will be his weapon to beat Nathan. Unless he would get it ridiculously consistent, then maybe.
Fact is Yuzu is constantly underscored, Nathan is constantly overscored. ISU is sending a very clear message - they will not allow Yuzu to win anymore, they will not score fairly. We are basically at a point where NC is getting almost the same PCS as Yuzu. If Yuzuru decides to go for his 3rd Olympic Gold, he will be at a massive disadvantage, there will be a lot of officials trying to keep him from becoming an even greater legend than he already is.
This is why I think you are right BoP. If he indeed wants to go for 2022 he should be very smart about it. And the layout you showed looks very Good and doable indeed. I am always scared about his 4Lo because it tends to be... moody.

Facts are everytime Nathan has beaten Yuzu, Nathan has brought his A game and Yuzu has not. There is no basis to believe Yuzu can't beat Nathan if Yuzu actually shows up clean in a competition where Nathan is clean. The reason Yuzu's not winning against Nathan is on Yuzu not the judges.
 

skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
This is a very interesting analysis. Although I don’t think Yuzuru is actually planning to incorporate a 4A into his future programs, I have a feeling it is just a challenge that keeps his competetive drive going. I don’t believe Yuzuru actually thinks the 4A will be his weapon to beat Nathan. Unless he would get it ridiculously consistent, then maybe.
Fact is Yuzu is constantly underscored, Nathan is constantly overscored. ISU is sending a very clear message - they will not allow Yuzu to win anymore, they will not score fairly. We are basically at a point where NC is getting almost the same PCS as Yuzu. If Yuzuru decides to go for his 3rd Olympic Gold, he will be at a massive disadvantage, there will be a lot of officials trying to keep him from becoming an even greater legend than he already is.
This is why I think you are right BoP. If he indeed wants to go for 2022 he should be very smart about it. And the layout you showed looks very Good and doable indeed. I am always scared about his 4Lo because it tends to be... moody.

Lol. I don’t think Yuzu will remotely do that layout at27 two years from now. If he feels he cannot medal at least silver I think he will retire. How anyone even an Uber Uber fan say he is underscored is simply wrong. He has often been held up like Chan. He is great but it seems his ubers can find nothing they like about Chen. Chen is very careful of respectful behavior to Yuzu. I am no ones Uber fan other than Jason. Chen is a great athlete and he is very good at everything. The current rules favor quad kings and he is the king of quads. I get so tired of the Nathen bashing and that is why threads close because some people just whine no matter who does what. I love Hanyu. That doesn’t mean I don’t love many other goats over the decades. This will be a closed thread but I just wanted to say once I’m Very tired of the Nathan bashing. It does not help Hanyu to say this stuff. He himself doesn’t feel this way.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
This wouldn’t be a good idea. The GOE on his 3A is partially derived from the impressiveness of the landing. A -3L combo jump goes up and down and is very rarely executed with speed and flow.

There are very few -3L combos that look “effortless” or have considerable height/distance - especially off a 3A.

Hanyu hasn’t done a -3L combo ever so it’s a bit of a tall ask to get him to try something he’s never shown in competition. Especially one that could compromise the huge GOE he gets from his axel.
 

lusterfan

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 23, 2018
That layout OP posted is way too ambitious. He barely skates his current programs cleanly, so a program like that seems unfeasible at least for now. He is completely out of gas already now, so he would have to train and condition like crazy to eke out a program like that.

4A - I'd love to see him get it ratified at least once in competition before he retires. I suspect he wouldn't want to retire til he can accomplish this.

3A + 3Lo - I can see him get this. I don't seeing it being a priority for him though. He struggles to be clean right now, so he's honestly not losing in the BV game - he's losing the clean game. If he goes perfectly clean, I doubt judges would deny him all the points. His problem though is that he hasn't been clean - not at Nationals, not at GPF, not at 4CC. That scars the reputation and will obviously lower the GOE and PCS that he gets.

As a side note though, I kind of want to see Trusova land a 3A + 3Lo. I don't think it'd be feasible in competition, but I could definitely see her landing a good one in practice. +3Lo are pretty easy for the Eteri girls, and we've seen her land decent 3A's in practice. I don't think she would risk it in competition, but it would be fun to see!
 

linkintank

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 25, 2014
7 jumping passes, only 1 repeat quad allowed.

For the Men who now attempt 5 quads (one repeat) in the Long Program, your last two jump elements to safely maximize base value are a 3Axel and a 3Lutz+3Toe combo. This is the layout Nathen Chen goes for, and it's quite ridiculous with the tiresome and nonsensical rules we currently live under, that these heavily Quaded-out programs now dissuade the Men from attempting a second Triple Axel, since a 3Axel+2Toe combo (or even a 3Axel+2Loop combo) is worth less than the 3Lutz+3Toe.

That is, unless you can do the +3Loop combo. Hanyu has a wonderful 3Axel, much better than Chen's. If he could incorporate a 3Axel+3Loop, this would give him a 2.8 point base value advantage over Chen's unexciting 3Lutz+3Toe (which has a wonky air position, lack of flow on the landing, and not much height, yet still somehow receives +4GOE from several judges).

The ideal jump layout for Hanyu would be:

4Loop
4Lutz
3Axel+3Loop
4Sal
4Toe+half loop+3Flip
3Axel+3Toe
4Toe

If he is smart in the upcoming 2 seasons, leading to his 3rd Olympic Gold medal, then his future programs will be planned exactly to take advantage of the rules and allow him to do these jumps with the maximum amount of energy remaining. How do you achieve this? You plan your first half of the program to have 4 jump elements and just 1 spin, and then your 5th jump element comes immediately at the halfway point, followed by the last two jump elements. After that you can do your last 2 spins and both footwork sequences, which are worth so much less points, and which the judges will just throw a bunch of +GOE at anyway, because they are imperceptive little sheep who don't differentiate well enough in the scores.

The 4Lutz with that layout can safely be downgraded to just a 3Lutz at competitions where Hanyu doesn't want to overpush himself (and the 4Toe+half loop+3Flip, to +3Sal instead), allowing him to retain muscle memory of an entire jump layout for the next 2 years, and peak at the important 2021 Worlds and 2022 Olympics, where hopefully he will not be cheesed out by the less artistic and less technically sound (although consistent) skating of Nathan Chen.

He doesn't need to do the Euler in between the 4toe and 3flip. He can do them in combination. The rules were changed after 2018. Artur D. did a 3ltuz3flip combo a year or two ago. He could do a 4toe 3lutz 3flip combination jump.
 
Joined
Jan 31, 2018
Wait, do we really think Yuzuru Hanyu is measuring his success by points on a spreadsheet or judge's score card? He's won every single thing there is to win, at least once. Don't we think "success" to him would be achieving an ice skating feat previously thought humanly impossible?
 

nussnacker

one and only
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 16, 2019
Funny, you were arguing for ISU to increase the BV of 4A and now you want to forget about 4A and ask Hanyu to learn 3A3Lo so he “will not be cheesed out (maybe crushed, destroyed, or smashed is more accurate) by the less artistic and less technically sound skating of Nathan Chen.” But I don’t think Hanyu will take your advice as his goal seems to have changed from ‘losing is death to me,’ ‘I must beat Nathan with overwhelming power,’ ‘I must win Worlds,’ ‘I must win GPF,’ to ‘I just want to skate my type of skating’ and ‘land the first 4A in competition.’

Hahah! I forgot Yuzuru said all those things!
So dramatic, such a diva he is xD
Omg, those phrases are pretty epic, they belong to a figure skating movie! Netflix should be writing every Yuzuru phrase down if they’re planning to film a new skating show, with dramatic Japanese male protagonist this time hopefully!
 
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