A "radical" proposal to reshape the sport: Phil Hersh article | Golden Skate

A "radical" proposal to reshape the sport: Phil Hersh article

CoyoteChris

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A "radical" proposal to reshape the sport: Phil Hersh article

In figure skating, a radical proposal to reshape the sport
By Philip Hersh


In an attempt to rebalance the athletic and artistic sides of figure skating, the sport’s technical committee for singles and pairs is submitting a proposal with sweeping changes for consideration by the International Skating Union at its biennial congress this June in Thailand.....

https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2020/02/13/figure-skating-scoring-changes-proposal/
 
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WeakAnkles

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Three minutes, thirty seconds.

At this rate, it won't be all that long before skaters take the ice, wave to the crowd and skate to the K&C for their scores.

Oy veh.

:rolleye:
 

TontoK

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I think a more straightforward approach would be to REALLY address what the PCS marks should mean and/or change the factoring for them in both programs... and to address the age issue.

There are skaters, not just currently but throughout the history of the sport, who have combined artistry and pushing the technical boundaries.

On a selfish note, I wish they'd leave pairs alone. It has only been fairly recently that I've found IJS pairs competition to be watchable. It has taken that discipline a LONG time to figure it out, and I hate to see the ISU upset the apple cart right now.
 
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Three minutes, thirty seconds.

At this rate, it won't be all that long before skaters take the ice, wave to the crowd and skate to the K&C for their scores

I agree with you on that :)

I don't. The four minute Long Program that they have now is too long to hold my attention all the way through (but at least it isn't four-and-a-half any more). The current short program is just about right. To me, whatever the skater has to say either technically or artistically, he can say it in three minutes. :yes:

By the way, there is already a long GS thread regarding this proposal. 26 oages long, more heat than light as you might expect.

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/s...S-replaced-by-Technical-and-Artistic-programs
 
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TontoK

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I don't. The four minute Long Program that they have now is too long to hold my attention all,the way through (but at least it isn't four-and-a-half any more). The current short program is just about right. To me, whatever the skater has to say either technically or artistically, he can say it in three minutes. :yes:

By the way, there is already a long GS thread regarding this proposal. 26 oages long, more heat than light as you might expect.

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/s...S-replaced-by-Technical-and-Artistic-programs

People can say what they will about the ISU and their committees.

But I'd guess they can get through a meeting without bloodshed, which is more than I imagine would happen if we had a GS conference to "fix" things wrong with the sport.

Strong opinions!
 

moonvine

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I don't. The four minute Long Program that they have now is too long to hold my attention all,the way through (but at least it isn't four-and-a-half any more). The current short program is just about right. To me, whatever the skater has to say either technically or artistically, he can say it in three minutes. :yes:

By the way, there is already a long GS thread regarding this proposal. 26 oages long, more heat than light as you might expect.

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/s...S-replaced-by-Technical-and-Artistic-programs

I’ve been thinking they should go back to 5 minutes myself.
 

moonvine

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In figure skating, a radical proposal to reshape the sport
By Philip Hersh


In an attempt to rebalance the athletic and artistic sides of figure skating, the sport’s technical committee for singles and pairs is submitting a proposal with sweeping changes for consideration by the International Skating Union at its biennial congress this June in Thailand.....

https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2020/02/13/figure-skating-scoring-changes-proposal/

Well the article says this proposal is unlikely to be accepted. I wonder if there are small changes that are more likely to be accepted.
 

drivingmissdaisy

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I don't. The four minute Long Program that they have now is too long to hold my attention all the way through (but at least it isn't four-and-a-half any more). The current short program is just about right. To me, whatever the skater has to say either technically or artistically, he can say it in three minutes.

I agree with you. I didn't feel that way about 6.0 programs, and I think one big reason is that the footwork sequences take far too much time and, generally, are not very interesting to watch.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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This is a terrible idea. Not only is it blurring the lines between the SP and FS, this will also put way more power in the hands of the judges to manipulate the final results based on propping up popular skaters on PCS.

"It also has made it very difficult for consummate artists like Jason Brown, who never has landed a quad, to make global podiums in men’s events. Many of the sport’s longtime fans say they have lost interest in what they see as a jumping contest."

No. Consummate artists like Jason Brown have made global podiums (4CC silver, most recently.. and several GP medals) on the merit of their artistry. But they can't make the top of it because they lack a quad. Which is how it should be.

I see the point in ladies where a handful of skaters can do quads and primarily from one country, so there is an imbalance. But in men's the quad is a standard. If Brown can't do a quad, that's on him, as literally hundreds of male skaters have landed quads in competition.

And never mind "Oh well, that will compel skaters to improve their PCS." The judges have their faves, and no matter how much some skaters who are classically inferior in PCS (Jin/Nguyen/Tomono, etc.) show improvement, they will never get the PCS needed to reach higher level. The benefit of them executing a quad will be immediately negated by their upper-tier rivals getting higher PCS (even if the upper-tier rival bombs their skate).

This isn't a radical proposal, so much as a handout to skaters who are unable to achieve the technical standards needed to compete at the upper echelons of the sport.

Brown should always be in contention for a medal, but putting him in contention for gold at Worlds or Olympics without a quad is simply ridiculous. It would be like weighting under 6.0 more to artistic impression so that skaters who couldn't do a 3A would still have a shot at winning. Except now it's the quad. Brown has superb elements and is the most talented in terms of artistry IMO, but he should consider himself lucky to be in the running for the World bronze in 2020 without a stable quad.
 
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I think the thing to remember is that the ISU balanced program rules and lists of scored elements have always put a limit on jumps. The skaters cannot exceed the number of allowed jumping passes. They must follow the Zayak rules. Etc. (Elain Zayak was Usaain Bolt -- they told her that she wasn't allowed to do as many triple toe loops as she was capable of.)

So now most likely the number of jumps allowed in the SP (which becomes the Technical Program) will ge increased form 3 jumping passes to most likely 6. The old LP (which becomes the new Artistic Program) goes from 7 jumping passes to probably 4. A skater whose program component scores used to be 40 in the SP and 80 in the LP, now will now be 60 in each, or maybe 50 in one and 70 in the other.

And Jason Brown will skate magnificently at some competitions, only so-so at others.
 
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Tavi...

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This is a terrible idea. Not only is it blurring the lines between the SP and FS, this will also put way more power in the hands of the judges to manipulate the final results based on propping up popular skaters on PCS.

"It also has made it very difficult for consummate artists like Jason Brown, who never has landed a quad, to make global podiums in men’s events. Many of the sport’s longtime fans say they have lost interest in what they see as a jumping contest."

No. Consummate artists like Jason Brown have made global podiums (4CC silver, most recently.. and several GP medals) on the merit of their artistry. But they can't make the top of it because they lack a quad. Which is how it should be.

I see the point in ladies where a handful of skaters can do quads and primarily from one country, so there is an imbalance. But in men's the quad is a standard. If Brown can't do a quad, that's on him, as literally hundreds of male skaters have landed quads in competition.

And never mind "Oh well, that will compel skaters to improve their PCS." The judges have their faves, and no matter how much some skaters who are classically inferior in PCS (Jin/Nguyen/Tomono, etc.) show improvement, they will never get the PCS needed to reach higher level. The benefit of them executing a quad will be immediately negated by their upper-tier rivals getting higher PCS (even if the upper-tier rival bombs their skate).

This isn't a radical proposal, so much as a handout to skaters who are unable to achieve the technical standards needed to compete at the upper echelons of the sport.

Brown should always be in contention for a medal, but putting him in contention for gold at Worlds or Olympics without a quad is simply ridiculous. It would be like weighting under 6.0 more to artistic impression so that skaters who couldn't do a 3A would still have a shot at winning. Except now it's the quad. Brown has superb elements and is the most talented in terms of artistry IMO, but he should consider himself lucky to be in the running for the World bronze in 2020 without a stable quad.

Could you please stop with the Jason bashing? He didn’t ask Phil Hersh to make him the poster boy for the proposed changes. He’s trying his best to succeed under the current system, just as he did in prior one - and that has included improving his jumps. Regarding his quad, unless you know for a fact why he’s struggled with it, maybe you shouldn’t be so judgmental about his failure to land one cleanly yet. Regarding his competitiveness under the current system: even a year ago, who but a few deluded Jason fans would have thought he’d win a silver medal at 4 Continents or that he’d be talked about as even a long shot for a bronze at Worlds? The mantra until recently was that he’s just not competitive, period; the change in perception has come because he’s worked his butt off to maximize his scores under the current system. Finally, I think it’s pretty disingenuous to ignore the fact that despite his lower BV, Jason would be far more competitive even under the current system if other skaters weren’t sometimes gifted with higher than deserved PCS and GOE simply because they’re jumping lots of quads, regardless of their skating skills, interpretation, or the overall quality of their programs. Judges are using the scoring system in a way it wasn’t intended, just as they did in the last iteration. A skater who is awarded a +5 on his 4Z instead of a deserved 0 or +1, for example, receives an additional 5-6 points in TES. Multiply that by a few jumps and add a few extra bonus points in PCS and you can start to see why there are such huge point gaps. I’m not saying there are no high BV programs deserving of astronomical scores. But they are fewer and farther between than the number of astronomical scores being awarded. Unless that problem is addressed, it doesn’t matter what changes are made to program structure or the scoring system.
 
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This is a terrible idea. Not only is it blurring the lines between the SP and FS,...

In intent at least, I think the opposite is the case. The lines between the SP and the LP are already blurred. The SP is just a shorter version of the LP.

The new proposal is an attempt to make the two programs truly different form each other, in terms of which skills are more emphasized.

... this will also put way more power in the hands of the judges to manipulate the final results based on propping up popular skaters on PCS.

In one program the PCSs will be slightly elevated in importance, in the other they will be slightly lowered. So that part is a wash.

But the emphasis is on "slightly." Pointwise, the 40% or 60% thing will not affect the final placements very much.

The only thing that is a major change (as we wait for more details) is the part about using placements rather than combined point totals to determine the overall winner. -- an echo of the 6.0 system.
 
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el henry

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Could you please stop with the Jason bashing? He didn’t ask Phil Hersh to make him the poster boy for the proposed changes. He’s trying his best to succeed under the current system, just as he did in prior one - and that has included improving his jumps. Regarding his quad, unless you know for a fact why he’s struggled with it, maybe you shouldn’t be so judgmental about his failure to land one cleanly yet. Regarding his competitiveness under the current system: even a year ago, who but a few deluded Jason fans would have thought he’d win a silver medal at 4 Continents or that he’d be talked about as even a long shot for a bronze at Worlds? The mantra until recently was that he’s just not competitive, period; the change in perception has come because he’s worked his butt off to maximize his scores under the current system. Finally, I think it’s pretty disingenuous to ignore the fact that despite his lower BV, Jason would be far more competitive even under the current system if other skaters weren’t sometimes gifted with higher than deserved PCS and GOE simply because they’re jumping lots of quads, regardless of their skating skills, interpretation, or the overall quality of their programs. Judges are using the scoring system in a way it wasn’t intended, just as they did in the last iteration. A skater who is awarded a +5 on his 4Z instead of a deserved 0 or +1, for example, receives an additional 5-6 points in TES. Multiply that by a few jumps and add a few extra bonus points in PCS and you can start to see why there are such huge point gaps. I’m not saying there are no high BV programs deserving of astronomical scores. But they are fewer and farther between than the number of astronomical scores being awarded. Unless that problem is addressed, it doesn’t matter what changes are made to program structure or the scoring system.

:clap::clap::clap:

Jason doesn’t need the changes, he is maximizing his every talent and gaining every point he can under the new system. Nobody would love it better than if means spirals were given 11 points BV, but it’s not what the proposal does and all these straw people arguments are getting just a tad tiresome. There are many other skaters who would benefit more :)

Although as a Jason fan, I find it amusing that many seem to think he is important enough to attack. That’s cool:cool:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Could you please stop with the Jason bashing? He didn’t ask Phil Hersh to make him the poster boy for the proposed changes. He’s trying his best to succeed under the current system, just as he did in prior one - and that has included improving his jumps. Regarding his quad, unless you know for a fact why he’s struggled with it, maybe you shouldn’t be so judgmental about his failure to land one cleanly yet. Regarding his competitiveness under the current system: even a year ago, who but a few deluded Jason fans would have thought he’d win a silver medal at 4 Continents or that he’d be talked about as even a long shot for a bronze at Worlds? The mantra until recently was that he’s just not competitive, period; the change in perception has come because he’s worked his butt off to maximize his scores under the current system. Finally, I think it’s pretty disingenuous to ignore the fact that despite his lower BV, Jason would be far more competitive even under the current system if other skaters weren’t sometimes gifted with higher than deserved PCS and GOE simply because they’re jumping lots of quads, regardless of their skating skills, interpretation, or the overall quality of their programs. Judges are using the scoring system in a way it wasn’t intended, just as they did in the last iteration. A skater who is awarded a +5 on his 4Z instead of a deserved 0 or +1, for example, receives an additional 5-6 points in TES. Multiply that by a few jumps and add a few extra bonus points in PCS and you can start to see why there are such huge point gaps. I’m not saying there are no high BV programs deserving of astronomical scores. But they are fewer and farther between than the number of astronomical scores being awarded. Unless that problem is addressed, it doesn’t matter what changes are made to program structure or the scoring system.

I’m being a realist here. Anyone who has read my posts knows I’m a big Jason fan. I’m just saying that Jason - or any men’s skater lacking a quad - should in this day and age have a stable quad to be in contention for a World medal. Tinkering the system to diminish the technical strides skaters are trying to make in lieu of the judges’ PCS whims is pushing the sport backwards.
 

TallyT

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I’m being a realist here. Anyone who has read my posts knows I’m a big Jason fan.

There is nothing less convincing - as every schoolboy knows - than "I'm a big fan but..." and go on to disparage and bring down. As with Yuzuru and Rika and others, I find myself thinking quite often "with 'fans' like this, who needs bashers?"
 

Tavi...

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I’m being a realist here. Anyone who has read my posts knows I’m a big Jason fan. I’m just saying that Jason - or any men’s skater lacking a quad - should in this day and age have a stable quad to be in contention for a World medal. Tinkering the system to diminish the technical strides skaters are trying to make in lieu of the judges’ PCS whims is pushing the sport backwards.

I know you’re a Jason fan - I’ve read your posts. My point, which could have been stated more succinctly, is that if you object to the proposed system, criticize the proposal itself rather than Jason. Regardless of the fact that Phil is using Jason as the poster boy for change, he’s unlikely to be around after 2022 or to benefit from it.

I’d also say that unless the proposal completely forbids skaters from doing quads or “harder” quads such as 4Z, there’s no evidence the sport will be pushed backwards.

As an aside, it’s kind of funny to see Phil Hersh fanboying Jason again after virtually ignoring him for the past few years. Almost all of his questions at both Nats press conferences were directed to Jason.
 
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My point, which could have been stated more succinctly, is that if you object to the proposed system, criticize the proposal itself rather than Jason. Regardless of the fact that Phil is using Jason as the poster boy for change, he’s unlikely to be around after 2022 or to benefit from it.

There is no reason to mention Jason or any other skater. The announcement is that the ISU is considering changes that will somewhat counter the distortions (in the view of the ISU technical committee) in scoring caused by the quad revolution, mostly on the women's side. And in fact, Hesh mentions Jason only once, in the 20th paragraph of this long article.

To me the most telling part of the article was Fabio Bianchetti's remarks that the ISU tried to address the problem last year, with more restrictions on quads and the -5 to +5 GOEs. But all that got blown way by the three Eteri girls, so now more substantial changes are needed.
 

Tavi...

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There is no reason to mention Jason or any other skater. The announcement is that the ISU is considering changes that will somewhat counter the distortions (in the view of the ISU technical committee) in scoring caused by the quad revolution, mostly on the women's side. And in fact, Hesh mentions Jason only once, in the 20th paragraph of this long article.

To me the most telling part of the article was Fabio Bianchetti's remarks that the ISU tried to address the problem last year, with more restrictions on quads and the -5 to +5 GOEs. But all that got blown way by the three Eteri girls, so now more substantial changes are needed.

How are they different than Boyang, Nathan, and Shoma were a few years ago? Why can’t they just make women’s PCS the same as men’s and insist that judges stop awarding unwarranted PCS and GOE?
 
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