Should Ladies Skating Allow Quads in the SP?

Sam-Skwantch · Feb 16, 2020

Is it strange that the ladies can’t do quads in the SP and yet the guys can? Is there a rationale behind this? I just don’t understand the reasoning why Women can’t and Men can? I’m like :scratch:

Where do you stand and why? Should the men maybe have quads removed from the SP?

At mods...can we make this a poll thread? I don’t know how to make polls :slink:

KOBOT37 · Feb 16, 2020

Obvious answer is YES.

Or if Quads are banned, ban 3A too.

Sam-Skwantch · Feb 16, 2020

Where men not allowed to do quads in the SP at one point?

eterislouisvuitton · Feb 16, 2020

I think these new propositions for whatever the 40% technical 60% artistic or vice versa are ridiculous, yes there is artistry lacking now but in no sport, in my honest, can't-do-a-backwards-crossover-opinion, should artistry be worth more than technical elements. 50 and 50 would make more sense. So I think that yes, they should allow quads in the ladies short because why can the men do it, but they can't?

A little bit of this may be that I am a huge Sasha Trusova fan

I think that if you allow a quad in the short and score everything property under the current system, there will be no problems. Score the quads property so that girls aren't encouraged to do random, really bad, unhealthy quads just so they can get a quad credit.

TontoK · Feb 16, 2020

To me, it's an obvious issue of equality. If it is allowed for men, it should be for women as well.

And I say this as someone who is not a particular fan of any of the quadster ladies.

On a personal level... and we all have our own opinions, and I won't apologize for mine... there is something wrong with ladies figure skating. I just think that holding an athlete back from his/her best effort is not the way to fix it.

No one is saying that Hanyu shouldn't be allowed to try a 4A just because no one else is working on it, and therefore he would receive an unfair scoring advantage.

McBibus · Feb 16, 2020

I think it should no be allowed for men too, not for being against the quads but because I don't want the SP to be a shorter version of the FS.
I want different content and that's a way to force it.
Ideally I would also like some different requirement only for the SP.

As for 3A yes please, but avoid the possiblity to use it in the combo.
3A should be the max scoring element in SP like 4Lz is in FS.
Why? because it's incredibly difficult and totally different from backwards quads so I want some place where it can't be substituted with you favorite quad.

Of course, that is totally personal.

flanker · Feb 16, 2020

Yes, it should.

Fried · Feb 16, 2020

Of course Quads should be allowed in the SP as long as 3A is allowed. In my opinion, the competition is currently distorted.
I also wonder when gender equality will arrive in FS.

rollerblade · Feb 16, 2020

Sam-Skwantch said:
Where men not allowed to do quads in the SP at one point?

I went on a digging expedition. And boy, Yagudin had some truly hideous costumes back in the days :palmf:

Men were allowed one quad in the SP starting in the 1998-99 season, but success rate (and attempt rate) was pretty abysmal. Elvis Stojko attempted it in the SP at 99 Worlds, but was 2-footed and <<. Nobody else even tried. The first clean SP quad went to Min Zhang at the 99 Four Continents, who did not attend Worlds that year.

The following season is when the top dawgs started to add quads to the SP, usually in the form of combo.

Starting 2010-11 season, a whole dozen years later, men are allowed two quads in the SP, but only if they're different jumps. How long before two-quad SP became "mainstream"? 2015-16 IIRC.

Guess I'll look forward to 2034 when two-quad SP is a thing for Ladies haha.

crazydreamer · Feb 16, 2020

I’m against rules that make skating less competitive. Allowing quads in SP would absolutely make ladies skating less competitive because only two or three women in the entire world can reliably do them. Great for those women, bad for skating.

Yes, men can do quads in the SP, and that’s not really fair. Men’s has also become extremely uncompetitive, with two skaters basically owning the only realistic chance of gold medals.

If the quads teens cannot be dominant without their quads, that to me says more about the overall flaws in their skating than anything else.

flanker · Feb 16, 2020

crazydreamer said:
I’m against rules that make skating less competitive. Allowing quads in SP would absolutely make ladies skating less competitive because only two or three women in the entire world can reliably do them. Great for those women, bad for skating.

Yes, men can do quads in the SP, and that’s not really fair. Men’s has also become extremely uncompetitive, with two skaters basically owning the only realistic chance of gold medals.

If the quads teens cannot be dominant without their quads, that to me says more about the overall flaws in their skating than anything else.

Let's reduce the maximal speed in sprint, because that's making the races less competitive

Sam-Skwantch · Feb 16, 2020

rollerblade said:
I went on a digging expedition. And boy, Yagudin had some truly hideous costumes back in the days

Men were allowed one quad in the SP starting in the 1998-99 season, but success rate (and attempt rate) was pretty abysmal. Elvis Stojko attempted it in the SP at 99 Worlds, but was 2-footed and <<. Nobody else even tried. The first clean SP quad went to Min Zhang at the 99 Four Continents, who did not attend Worlds that year.

The following season is when the top dawgs started to add quads to the SP, usually in the form of combo.

Starting 2010-11 season, a whole dozen years later, men are allowed two quads in the SP, but only if they're different jumps. How long before two-quad SP became "mainstream"? 2015-16 IIRC.

Guess I'll look forward to 2034 when two-quad SP is a thing for Ladies haha.

Thank you for this!!

Ded Moroz · Feb 16, 2020

Quads should be allowed in the Short.

Until they are, 3A should be banned too.
Fair is fair.

Pity this conversation has to be had.

kolyadafan2002 · Feb 16, 2020

eterislouisvuitton said:
I think these new propositions for whatever the 40% technical 60% artistic or vice versa are ridiculous, yes there is artistry lacking now but in no sport, in my honest, can't-do-a-backwards-crossover-opinion, should artistry be worth more than technical elements. 50 and 50 would make more sense. So I think that yes, they should allow quads in the ladies short because why can the men do it, but they can't?

A little bit of this may be that I am a huge Sasha Trusova fan

I think that if you allow a quad in the short and score everything property under the current system, there will be no problems. Score the quads property so that girls aren't encouraged to do random, really bad, unhealthy quads just so they can get a quad credit.

What?
I think you're talking about the artistic and tech programs. One would have 60%tech and 40% artist, the other 40% tech 60% artist. The idea is they want to see how artistic people can be and creative when they dont need to do tonnes of jumps in quick succession, but still reward tech.

Joekaz · Feb 16, 2020

The problem womens skating faces right now is that the determining factor to win is no longer skating or jumping ability, but how fast you can rotate in the air. So skating needs to make adjustments to reward the elements in correct proportion, which is a very subjective thing.

McBibus · Feb 16, 2020

crazydreamer said:
I’m against rules that make skating less competitive. Allowing quads in SP would absolutely make ladies skating less competitive because only two or three women in the entire world can reliably do them. Great for those women, bad for skating.

Yes, men can do quads in the SP, and that’s not really fair. Men’s has also become extremely uncompetitive, with two skaters basically owning the only realistic chance of gold medals.

If the quads teens cannot be dominant without their quads, that to me says more about the overall flaws in their skating than anything else.

I don't think that's a good reason, as (on the other side) is stating that including 3A is unbalancing.
We are in transition by the time rules could change we will have more quad girls (just look at juniors), and a girl jumping quad can (and should) jump a trixel.

Think of Sasha and Anna as an example, by next year there is no reason they can't jump a 3A unless they prefer to train something else (e.g. one more quad for the FS).
Balance is not a factor as every rule applies to everybody and we have those rules since
What is not fair is changing the rules after seeing the results to "rebalance".

I don't want quads in SP (even for men) because I like the idea of different content in SP and FS, but if you don't support this idea I think after next olympic quads should absolutely be allowed in SP.
Not allowing quads in order to keep the standings more compact (and if you think this 3A should go too) is unfairly manipulating the sport.

lariko · Feb 16, 2020

Yes, and I am sad that petition was rejected.

The situation with 3A is just as unbalancing. The success rate on it is low, very few female skaters can do it, but an axel is an obligatory jump, so the rest of the ladies are forced to sub it for a double, instead of for any other triple.

What that rule does, is saying that 3A should become ubiquitous in the highest tier of the skaters before quads are allowed into the female SP.

kolyadafan2002 · Feb 16, 2020

McBibus said:
I don't think that's a good reason, as (on the other side) is stating that including 3A is unbalancing.
We are in transition by the time rules could change we will have more quad girls (just look at juniors), and a girl jumping quad can (and should) jump a trixel.

Think of Sasha and Anna as an example, by next year there is no reason they can't jump a 3A unless they prefer to train something else (e.g. one more quad for the FS).
Balance is not a factor as every rule applies to everybody and we have those rules since
What is not fair is changing the rules after seeing the results to "rebalance".

I don't want quads in SP (even for men) because I like the idea of different content in SP and FS, but if you don't support this idea I think after next olympic quads should absolutely be allowed in SP.
Not allowing quads in order to keep the standings more compact (and if you think this 3A should go too) is unfairly manipulating the sport.

Remember, it took about 20years after the first man to land a quad before they allowed it in the sp. probably another 1 or 2 years and they will allow for women.

Arbitrary · Feb 16, 2020

The position of allow or not quads in SP heavily depends on the potential gain "your" skaters have over this matter.

Fried · Feb 16, 2020

I have to contradict that. I find it simply unfair in two ways. You should either prohibit quads AND trixels or allow both. It would be really fair to give men and women the same rights.

Should Ladies Skating Allow Quads in the SP?

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

KOBOT37

Match Penalty

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

eterislouisvuitton

TontoK

Hot Tonto

McBibus

flanker

Fried

rollerblade

crazydreamer

flanker

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Ded Moroz

LADIES QUAD CLUB

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada

Joekaz

McBibus

lariko

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada

Arbitrary

Fried

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