Should Ladies Skating Allow Quads in the SP? | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Should Ladies Skating Allow Quads in the SP?

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
No elite level skater would have any trouble intentionally doing a single or double jump, and if you can do triples/quads, you don't suddenly need "control and finesse" to do doubles and singles.

Even so, the idea might lead to some interesting combinations. You wouldn't want to waste a whole jumping pass for a double loop (1.70 points). But you might try a 2Lo+Eu+2A and get the 1 revolution jump, the 2-revolution (non-Axel) jump and the Axel jump out of thre way all at once. and earning 5.50 points. Also you satisfied the requirement of doing a loop jump, which might be important if the triple loop is your nemesis jump. :yes:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I think they should definitely weight the PCS the same as the men at this point, there is no reason for it to be so different.

I think we have to be careful here. The reason for the factoring is not to make men 's scoring rules different from womens', but to make the TES and PCS of roughly equal weight for both sexes.

If women used men's scoring, yes, this would allow Alexandra Trusova to beat some of the boys. But for everyone who is not Trusova it would mean that the component scores contribute more to the total that the TES scores do.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
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Jan 28, 2013
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Well, as long as we're limiting what skaters can do based on the limitations of other skaters, let me put in a word for my fellow-inflexibles.

Ban the Gumby contortionist moves, including the Biellmann. Hoisting one's leg over the head is inelegant, and it has nothing to do with skating.

Tight Hamstrings of the World... UNITE!
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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Dec 29, 2013
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I’m not sure I’m convinced by anything I’ve read that quads should be allowed in men’s SPs and not in the ladies. I think what’s fair for the men is fair for the ladies.

Of course I think jumps should be scrutinized fairly but that just detracts from the actual question I asked....should quads be allowed in the ladies SP. I think the judging debate and all that goes with it is for a different thread...ymmv
 

Fool

On the Ice
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Feb 11, 2018
Country
South-Korea
I think we have to be careful here. The reason for the factoring is not to make men 's scoring rules different from womens', but to make the TES and PCS of roughly equal weight for both sexes.

If women used men's scoring, yes, this would allow Alexandra Trusova to beat some of the boys. But for everyone who is not Trusova it would mean that the component scores contribute more to the total that the TES scores do.

That's what they want:)
 

KatGrace1925

Medalist
Joined
Apr 4, 2016
I think we have to be careful here. The reason for the factoring is not to make men 's scoring rules different from womens', but to make the TES and PCS of roughly equal weight for both sexes.

If women used men's scoring, yes, this would allow Alexandra Trusova to beat some of the boys. But for everyone who is not Trusova it would mean that the component scores contribute more to the total that the TES scores do.

But if women are going to do the same technical content as men their PCS should carry equal weight to that of how men's is weighted. It's not about beating the boys scores the TES weight is going to be much more for women if this quad revolution continues without increasing their PCS weight and women will continue to learn quads, this isn't going to go away.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Everyone knew the rules and had the opportunity to learn the triple axel and when to have it competition-ready.

To be fair, rules and trends change a lot. Mao got a huge advantage when the SP allowed the solo axel to be a 3A; it's not something she anticipated when she started training the jump several years before. OTOH, she was hurt a lot by the penalties for wrong edge take-offs and tried to correct her lutz far too late in her career. Watching the 1998 or 2002 Olympics, one would think flutzing would not hold you back at all from the highest levels of the sport.

With the current crop, I think it's fair for them to have anticipated that having a strong 3A would be advantageous, but the math changes drastically if women are allowed to do one or two quads in the SP.
 

drivingmissdaisy

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Joined
Feb 17, 2010
But if women are going to do the same technical content as men their PCS should carry equal weight to that of how men's is weighted. It's not about beating the boys scores the TES weight is going to be much more for women if this quad revolution continues without increasing their PCS weight and women will continue to learn quads, this isn't going to go away.

It's a tough issue with the women, because you have a far wider range of technical ability in women's events. When you look past the top few women, I'm not sure any of them would have their TES match their PCS if scored out of 100.
 

KatGrace1925

Medalist
Joined
Apr 4, 2016
It's a tough issue with the women, because you have a far wider range of technical ability in women's events. When you look past the top few women, I'm not sure any of them would have their TES match their PCS if scored out of 100.

Yeah but we're moving towards that, now that the quad revolution is wide open it is going to continue to be a tech arms race in women's figure skating and in a few quads we could regularly see it happening where tech matches that.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Yeah but we're moving towards that, now that the quad revolution is wide open it is going to continue to be a tech arms race in women's figure skating and in a few quads we could regularly see it happening where tech matches that.

We can check it out after Worlds and see whether a change is necessary or not. Use the LP where the rules are the same. Take the average tech score of all the ladies and the average tech score of all the men. The current factors are based on the assumption that the mens average will be 25% higher than the ladies. If it doesn't turn out this way -- let's say the mens average is only 11 percent higher -- then it is time to change the ladies' factor to .9 in the SP and 1.8 in the LP. :yes:

Or possibly the results would show that we should raise ladies factors to 1 and 2, and men's to 1.1 and 2.2.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I’m not sure I’m convinced by anything I’ve read that quads should be allowed in men’s SPs and not in the ladies.

I agree. And I'll go you one better. I'm not convinced by anything I've read that quads should not be allowed in the ladies short program.

Period. No reason to mention men at all. Just -- let the ladies show us what they got.
 
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drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
This is untrue. Yuzuru Hanyu has stated he can no longer do a 2A, only a single or a triple. Sometimes skaters lose their double jumps when they learn triples.


The 2A is probably an exception. Any jump through the 2Lz wouldn't give a skater trouble if they can do triples.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I agree. And I'll go you one better. I'm not convinced by anything I've read that quads should not be allowed in the ladies short program.

Period. No reason to mention men at all. Just -- let the ladies show us what they got.

I think KatGrace1925's concerns are legitimate though about PCS scoring and quads. If women can do the same elements as men in the SP, the women can match the top men's scores on TES but cannot get closer than within 10 points of the men. So an "artistic" man without quads, like Jason, is in much better position than a woman with similar strengths and weaknesses, because he can close the technical gap a lot more effectively with the higher PCS ceiling/weighting.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I think KatGrace1925's concerns are legitimate though about PCS scoring and quads. If women can do the same elements as men in the SP, the women can match the top men's scores on TES but cannot get closer than within 10 points of the men. So an "artistic" man without quads, like Jason, is in much better position than a woman with similar strengths and weaknesses, because he can close the technical gap a lot more effectively with the higher PCS ceiling/weighting.

All that is true enough. But there is no reason to press this argument when all we need to say is, "Of course women should be allowed to jump quads, quints or whatever they think they can do. Why not?"
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
The 2A is probably an exception. Any jump through the 2Lz wouldn't give a skater trouble if they can do triples.

The 2A does seem to be an exception. Several skaters have mentioned that their 2A technique suffered when they started training the 3A.

Still, the idea of requiring some lower rotation jumps has some intriguing possibilities. Why not give points for a delayed single Axel? Or for a 2Lz+2Lz sequence in both directions? Or a double Walley or toeless Lutz? That would put some pizzazz in the jumping passes rather than just counting revolutions.
 

lzxnl

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
The 2A does seem to be an exception. Several skaters have mentioned that their 2A technique suffered when they started training the 3A.

Still, the idea of requiring some lower rotation jumps has some intriguing possibilities. Why not give points for a delayed single Axel? Or for a 2Lz+2Lz sequence in both directions? Or a double Walley or toeless Lutz? That would put some pizzazz in the jumping passes rather than just counting revolutions.

This would be cool, but eventually everyone would just learn these new variants and we'd still have to judge them on revolutions.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
This would be cool, but eventually everyone would just learn these new variants and we'd still have to judge them on revolutions.

I don't know about that. How many skaters can do a double Lutz in both directions?

Has any skater ever been able to do do a double toeless Lutz?

But I looked it up and found to my amazement that someone actually has done a double one-foot Axel. Jill Trenery had a double one-foot Axel + triple Salchow combination!!! Now that's skating. If she did it now, would she get points only for the Salchow?

IIRC Alexandra Trusova can do a delayed Axel into a quad, but she doesn't do it in competition -- our loss -- because she gets credit only for an "unusual entry" to the quad.
 
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drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I don't know about that. How many skaters can do a double Lutz in both directions? As far as I know, no skater has ever been able to do do a double toeless Lutz.

But I looked it up and found to my amazement that someone actually has done a double one-foot Axel. Jill Trenery had a double one-foot Axel + triple Salchow combination!!! Now that's skating. If she did it now, would she get points only for the Salchow?

IIRC Alexandra Trusova can do a delayed Axel into an quad, but she doesn't do it in competition -- our loss -- because she gets credit only for an "unusual entry" to the quad.

I think the biggest problem would be assigning values to elements that no one really trains. Is no one doing an element because it's actually hard, or that they just have no interest in training jumps they can't do in competition?
 

Skater Boy

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Joined
Feb 24, 2012
To be fair, rules and trends change a lot. Mao got a huge advantage when the SP allowed the solo axel to be a 3A; it's not something she anticipated when she started training the jump several years before. OTOH, she was hurt a lot by the penalties for wrong edge take-offs and tried to correct her lutz far too late in her career. Watching the 1998 or 2002 Olympics, one would think flutzing would not hold you back at all from the highest levels of the sport.

With the current crop, I think it's fair for them to have anticipated that having a strong 3A would be advantageous, but the math changes drastically if women are allowed to do one or two quads in the SP.

The thing it is kind of arbitrary that they allow the triple axel so why not quads. If Anna or Rika skate clean in the sp then it is hard for anyone to catch up. If they allow any axel they should allow any jump for the rest
 
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