Should Ladies Skating Allow Quads in the SP? | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Should Ladies Skating Allow Quads in the SP?

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Is 3A a triple or a quad?

In the official ISU Scale of Values documents the 3A is grouped with the quads. The double Axel is grouped with the triple jumps. Also the basde value point gap between the 3A and the 4T is less than the gap between the highest regular triple (Lutz) and the triple Axel.
 

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
I don't want quads in SP (even for men) because I like the idea of different content in SP and FS, but if you don't support this idea I think after next olympic quads should absolutely be allowed in SP.
Not allowing quads in order to keep the standings more compact (and if you think this 3A should go too) is unfairly manipulating the sport.

And what exactly is different about limiting number of possible SP variations? On the contary, the less jumps is allowed in SP - the more SP will become similar to each other - and boring to watch. All in all, usually watching men SP is more interesting than women and junior men SP - exactly because in senior men there are various skaters with various possible jumps - and you don't know what to expect from them. That's diversity. On other hand senior ladies SP usually is pretty diverse too - but only because of abysmally low general level of senior ladies as a whole - making even simple 3T+3T combo a feat for many of them. Therefore we can watch various combinations of jumps: 3+3, 3+2, 3+1, 1+2, pops, falls etc. And maybe a 3A among them. Which makes judges work pretty easy.
That said, if you watched RusJrNat for example - the situation there was completely different. Junior ladies there all jumped the same content, cleanly - in most cases 2A, 3Lo, 3Lz+3T. Which made judges work pretty hard. To differentiate between them (and junior ladies PCS are pretty much limited to artificial ceiling of 28-30 no matter what they show on ice - with very rare exceptions ) judges needed to be overpicky and try to scrutinize every little detail of each spin and step - which wasn't obvious even for Ted and he complained multiple times that he don't know how he would assessed all of them in relation who is better and who is worse. While performances artistically were very different - from TES point of view all of them were similar. And that's the problem since main goal of shorts program is to differentiate skater by flights before FP based on their technical abilities - and how that can work if everybody are limited to the same set of elements? As a result almost all 18 skaters were squeezed between 60 and 70 range before FP. Which in turn made the whole SP pretty much useless - they could start the competition just from FP only. While aesthetically short program was as pleasing to watch as possible - from competitive sport fan point of view it wasn't the stage of competition where he could feel that the struggle for podium places is really started.
So what I mean is that making allowed set of elements in short more limited - will make this sport less exciting to watch.
 

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
Yes, but not until after the 2022 Olympics. Changing the rules two years before the Olympics would give an advantage to the new quadsters. Triple axels for ladies have been around for a long time. Ladies quads are new. Skaters have known for at least 10 years that they could gain points by doing a 3A in the short program.

Yet we have almost as few ladies with competitive 3A as with quads. If anything this can become an argument for opposite - despite having the whole 10 years to try learn and attempt as many 3A as they want - only a few were bothered enough to do it. Which in turn means that no amount of time is relevant when the whole level of skill is this low. Considering a few chosen ones with enough will and abilities to do 3A were getting this whole time period "unfair" advantage over others - about which nobody were complaining btw - there is no sense in delaying quads in SP as well. It won't matter how much time you will give to "prepare" the jumps - I don't see any different picture from what we could see in relation to 3A. Only a few will be able to master these jumps in ladies - both 3A and quads.
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
sure but they better be taken on step and if they are UR/fall should be very penalized
 

PyeongChang2018

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Of course they should be allowed.

That being said, they should have the correct edges and shouldn't have a forward take off...
 

crazydreamer

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 3, 2007
Let's reduce the maximal speed in sprint, because that's making the races less competitive :laugh2:
laugh if you like, but sprint is all about speed and only about speed. Skating is not all about quads. I’m not opposed to handing out a separate medal for best jump, like vault in gymnastics.

This is more like limiting the LP to 4 minutes, or not awarding bonus points in basketball for sinking a shot from the complete other side of the field.
 

colormyworld240

Medalist
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
I don't think that's a good reason, as (on the other side) is stating that including 3A is unbalancing.
We are in transition by the time rules could change we will have more quad girls (just look at juniors), and a girl jumping quad can (and should) jump a trixel.

Think of Sasha and Anna as an example, by next year there is no reason they can't jump a 3A unless they prefer to train something else (e.g. one more quad for the FS).
Balance is not a factor as every rule applies to everybody and we have those rules since
What is not fair is changing the rules after seeing the results to "rebalance".

I don't want quads in SP (even for men) because I like the idea of different content in SP and FS, but if you don't support this idea I think after next olympic quads should absolutely be allowed in SP.
Not allowing quads in order to keep the standings more compact (and if you think this 3A should go too) is unfairly manipulating the sport.

This may not be the case for Sasha and Anna because they both have quite good axels and I wouldn't be surprised if they learned a 3A next year. But I think with only 3A allowed in the SP and not quads, the sport heavily favours axel jumpers and gives them an (unfair?) advantage in the SP. Axel is 1 out of the 6 jumps that are done in programs. And all skaters have their preferred jumps; they don't come equally naturally to everyone. Skaters will often talk about which jumps they like more, and which they struggle with more. With the current rules, if the axel is your best jump then you have a clear advantage over those who are stronger in other jumps.

I think the equivalent would be if only one type of quad was allowed in the FS. Or only edge or toe quads. I don't understand how it was decided that only 3As are allowed in the SP over quads of other jumps. Is the 4A allowed? And is 3A typically considered equal to a triple or a quad?
 

lzxnl

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
The way I see it is simple. The ladies' short program asks for triples. The 3A is a triple, not a quad. People may say it's scored closer to a quad than other triples, but a 4T is closer in base value to a 4S (and even to a 4Lo) than it is to a 3A, and is in the middle of a 3A and a 4F. The solo jump is a triple. Everything says triple.

Is it an unfair advantage? Remember how programs are meant to be 'balanced'? Asking skaters to master the most difficult triple to have a full set of triples certainly sounds the most 'balanced' to me, rather than having skaters win with a quad of one kind but a double of another kind. That's literally unbalanced.

Finally, why require that skaters jump an axel? Firstly, it's the most recognisable jump. The casual skating fan will recognise an axel jump, but maybe not some of the other jumps (the difference between a lutz and a flip, or a salchow and toe loop, for instance, is easily missed; I, for one, had trouble distinguishing salchows and toe loops even as a skater). It's also the most difficult jump, and thus one should be rewarded for being able to do the most difficult jump well.
 

Amei

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
My desire to see quads allowed for the ladies is because quads are allowed for the men in the SP - make it equal between the 2 disciplines.

Regarding the 'advantage' that people have mentioned given to ladies that can jump the triple axel vs. a skater who doesn't have a triple axel but does have a quad - and I say this as 1 of my favorites being the in the latter group...Everyone knew the rules and had the opportunity to learn the triple axel and when to have it competition-ready.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
The way I see it is simple. The ladies' short program asks for triples. The 3A is a triple, not a quad..
hmm...are you suggesting that the ladies SP specifically asks only for triples? Where is this stated or coming from? Also is there a different mission statement for men’s skating? It’s kinda weird though since so many ladies only do a 2axel. I’m thoroughly confused by this declaration.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
hmm...are you suggesting that the ladies SP specifically asks only for triples? Where is this stated or coming from? Also is there a different mission statement for men’s skating? It’s kinda weird though since so many ladies only do a 2axel. I’m thoroughly confused by this declaration.

The rules are

A double or triple Axel.
One solo triple jump (it used to be "out of steps" -- this was dropped because nobody ever did any steps :) )
A combination consisting of either two triple jumps or one triple jump and one double jump.

Sometimes a skater will have a shaky landing on the first jump of the combo and only pull off a triple single. 0 points for the whole combo.

Edit: If the proposal goes through about replacing the SP with a Technical Program of three-and-a-half-minutes, then it should be something like this:

1 quadruple or triple jump of the skater's choosing.
1 double or triple Axel.
1 4-3, 4-2, 3-3 or 3-2 combo.
1 Three-jump combo.
1 triple Lutz or triple Flip.
1 triple loop.

Higher! Faster !Stronger!
 
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lzxnl

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
hmm...are you suggesting that the ladies SP specifically asks only for triples? Where is this stated or coming from? Also is there a different mission statement for men’s skating? It’s kinda weird though since so many ladies only do a 2axel. I’m thoroughly confused by this declaration.

Sorry, I should have clarified my statement. I'm explaining why I don't feel a triple axel in the short is inherently unfair compared to quads, and thus why the arguments saying to ban triple axels if you ban quads fall flat. A double axel is allowed in the short so that those who happen to not have a triple axel to still compete.

As for ladies doing quads in the short itself, I maintain that as only two senior ladies are landing quads right now, allowing quads in the short is a surefire way to make figure skating even more jump-centric than it already is. At the very least, currently the two quad jumpers have to ensure all facets of their skating are up to speed before they focus on quads, at least for the short, and other skaters can actually compete with non-quad elements. Giving such a large advantage to skaters that can perform more revolutions in the air will greater exacerbate the existing gulf between jump elements and EVERYTHING else.

Why is it ok in the men? Well, quite simply, more men jump quads than women. It's a different story to ask nearly of the top 10 men to not jump an element they're perfectly capable of jumping, compared to asking two girls (yes, girls) to not jump quads.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
The position of allow or not quads in SP heavily depends on the potential gain "your" skaters have over this matter.

This is not true, at least in my case.

I've already posted on this thread that I don't particularly enjoy the quadster ladies... I certainly never re-watch any of their programs after the first viewing during the competition... and I also think quads should be allowed in the Ladies SP as a matter of equality.
 

nussnacker

one and only
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 16, 2019
Of course athletes know the rules, and can choose what to focus their time on. On the other hand, that fact doesn’t make those rules fair.
I see no reason why the rules can’t change.

3A belongs more to the quad world, imo.
3A is the highest order axel jump that was ever landed. 4salchow is the highest order Salchow jump ever landed. These jumps belong together, simply because they are in the same group of „highest possible“ (as of now at least).

And why have limitations only when it comes to jumps?
Some skaters can’t get level 4 spins or step sequences, maybe we should also have limitations when it comes to spins, etc. to make other athletes more competitive with the ones, who can get those things consistently?
Maybe PCS should also be capped, so that other athletes would have a chance to compete with better PCS athletes in the short?

Those are rhetorical questions, btw. Just showing, that if we extrapolate the same type of logic on other elements, it makes no sense.

The fair playing field is the one, where all are able to showcase their maximum potential, not the one where it’s held back artificially to favor some of them.

Axel is already favored enough, simply because it’s mandatory in both sp and fs. No need to favor one type of jump over others even more than it already is.
I agree, that if men are allowed to have quads in sp, women should be allowed to do the same.
 

SkateSkates

Medalist
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
The rules are

A double or triple Axel.
One solo triple jump (it used to be "out of steps" -- this was dropped because nobody ever did any steps :) )
A combination consisting of either two triple jumps or one triple jump and one double jump.

Sometimes a skater will have a shaky landing on the first jump of the combo and only pull off a triple single. 0 points for the whole combo.

Edit: If the proposal goes through about replacing the SP with a Technical Program of three-and-a-half-minutes, then it should be something like this:

1 quadruple or triple jump of the skater's choosing.
1 double or triple Axel.
1 4-3, 4-2, 3-3 or 3-2 combo.
1 Three-jump combo.
1 triple Lutz or triple Flip.
1 triple loop.

Higher! Faster !Stronger!

What about jump repetition rules? Does the Zayak rule still apply? I think it would be interesting to require that all types of jumps must be included in the “technical” program as this is the best way for a skater to show their technical mastery over all jumping elements. In order for it to work for combinations, require that each of the 6 jumps must be the first jump and the skaters can choose which 3 they will put the combos on? And in order to be inclusive to all skill levels they will have to choose between a double, triple or quad for each jump type, but no restrictions on quads. Just a random thought I had based on your proposed content :)

For example, a layout could be:
2A
3F-3T
3Lz-1Eu-3S
3Lo-2T
3S
3T

Or (Sasha :) )
3A
4T-1Eu-3S
4Lz-3T
3S
4F
3Lo-3Lo (I’ve never seen her do this but I’m sure she could)

Sorry this is so off topic
 

Joekaz

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Of course athletes know the rules, and can choose what to focus their time on. On the other hand, that fact doesn’t make those rules fair.
I see no reason why the rules can’t change.

3A belongs more to the quad world, imo.
3A is the highest order axel jump that was ever landed. 4salchow is the highest order Salchow jump ever landed. These jumps belong together, simply because they are in the same group of „highest possible“ (as of now at least).

And why have limitations only when it comes to jumps?
Some skaters can’t get level 4 spins or step sequences, maybe we should also have limitations when it comes to spins, etc. to make other athletes more competitive with the ones, who can get those things consistently?
Maybe PCS should also be capped, so that other athletes would have a chance to compete with better PCS athletes in the short?

Those are rhetorical questions, btw. Just showing, that if we extrapolate the same type of logic on other elements, it makes no sense.

The fair playing field is the one, where all are able to showcase their maximum potential, not the one where it’s held back artificially to favor some of them.

Axel is already favored enough, simply because it’s mandatory in both sp and fs. No need to favor one type of jump over others even more than it already is.
I agree, that if men are allowed to have quads in sp, women should be allowed to do the same.
You can simply lower the relative value of jumps compared to other elements, therefore it won't matter much whether you do quads or not.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
You can simply lower the relative value of jumps compared to other elements, therefore it won't matter much whether you do quads or not.

What stands out to me is that I see people landing triples all the time around the rinks I frequent. I’ve only seen a handful of quads landed in person!! Maybe that’s why your suggestion strikes me as non reflective of the difficulty and effort it takes to execute a quad. YMMV
 

nussnacker

one and only
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 16, 2019
You can simply lower the relative value of jumps compared to other elements, therefore it won't matter much whether you do quads or not.

But why should it not matter?
I think it should matter, whether someone does quads or no. quads are difficult and should get rewarded accordingly.
 
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