Should Ladies Skating Allow Quads in the SP?

Happy Skates · Feb 24, 2020

lzxnl said:
Your argument would be valid only if said quad flips or lutzes were actually remotely close to the right amount of revolutions. As is very well established, the girls' quad lutzes and flips all have a 0.6 revolution cheat on the takeoff, hardly using the toe pick either. Had they been assessed as underrotating AND bad takeoffs, the jumps would not be worth attempting. So, in their case, it's more of 'bad technique making some jumps easier than others'. Triple axels are harder to cheat, hence why Trusova struggles with them.

Even if you think that Trusova "cheats" her lz and f, you can't possibly argue that she cheats her 4S or 4T, the latter of which is her best quad, and they're both textbook. So tell me again that 3As being harder to "cheat" is why Trusova struggles with them (although she can do them and did several at Euros practice). She just prefers quads to 3As, the same way that Rika prefers the 3A to quads, same with Alyona, Liza, Young You.

lzxnl · Feb 24, 2020

Happy Skates said:
Even if you think that Trusova "cheats" her lz and f, you can't possibly argue that she cheats her 4S or 4T, the latter of which is her best quad, and they're both textbook. So tell me again that 3As being harder to "cheat" is why Trusova struggles with them (although she can do them and did several at Euros practice). She just prefers quads to 3As, the same way that Rika prefers the 3A to quads, same with Alyona, Liza, Young You.

Your point only holds for her 4T, not her 4S, as she's struggled on that a lot recently. Trusova does get a lot of spring on that particular jump, I agree, but in any case she's had trouble with 3As.

PyeongChang2018 · Feb 24, 2020

Happy Skates said:
Even if you think that Trusova "cheats" her lz and f, you can't possibly argue that she cheats her 4S or 4T, the latter of which is her best quad, and they're both textbook. So tell me again that 3As being harder to "cheat" is why Trusova struggles with them (although she can do them and did several at Euros practice). She just prefers quads to 3As, the same way that Rika prefers the 3A to quads, same with Alyona, Liza, Young You.

She even cheats her 3T. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ya2jZpst9s

Happy Skates · Feb 24, 2020

PyeongChang2018 said:
She even cheats her 3T. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ya2jZpst9s

Um no? You're allowed 180 degrees for a toeloop, she doesn't do more than that. Her toeloop is perfectly fine.
and here's proof:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B4mzN43IGYF/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
Trusova and Hanyu's toeloops take off at the exact same moment - if you accuse her of cheating then you have to accuse him too... of course accusing either of them is insanity though.

lzxnl said:
Your point only holds for her 4T, not her 4S, as she's struggled on that a lot recently. Trusova does get a lot of spring on that particular jump, I agree, but in any case she's had trouble with 3As.

She's still landed the 4S in competition more than she's landed the 3A, and thats the point - she prefers 4S (and especially 4T) to 3A, despite not "cheating" either jump, which makes the "she can't do 3A because she can't cheat it" argument moot - she doesn't "cheat" 4T or 4S but she still can do them better than she can do a 3A. And its not like she can't do the 3A, she's done beautiful ones in practice, it just hasn't gotten consistent yet.

cohen-esque · Feb 24, 2020

Happy Skates said:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B4mzN43IGYF/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
Trusova and Hanyu's toeloops take off at the exact same moment - if you accuse her of cheating then you have to accuse him too... of course accusing either of them is insanity though.

I like when people “prove” things with videos instead of context-less screenshots. But I’m not confident they prove anything more than what one already believes because I look at this same video and see quite differently. They initiate takeoff on the quad at the same time time, and yet Hanyu is in the air with his pick fully off the ice before she is, and has much less of a visible effort and delay between the two jumps to get into the triple than Trusova does, all with a much nicer body position throughout and better landings on both jumps. Basically, to me this video shows me that Hanyu’s toeloops are superior in every way, including the amount of PR on the toepick... except she might actually jump slightly higher than he does.

But, I agree with you insofar as I don’t think that either of them are cheating their jumps from watching this.

PyeongChang2018 · Feb 24, 2020

With a toe loop, you're supposed to have your back foot's pick leave the ice the same time as the front foot's heel leaves the ice. Trusova's heel leaves waaaay sooner, giving her time to rotate while still on the ice. It's right there in your own video.

I think Trusova has many fantastic qualities. But let's stop deluding ourselves that she has perfect jumping technique.

KOBOT37 · Feb 25, 2020

Oh I see pre-rotation truthers have come to this thread too :laugh:

Mathman · Feb 25, 2020

cohen-esque said:
But I’m not confident they prove anything more than what one already believes.

This is 100% true. You will never see a video posted on You Tube where the poster says, "This is my favorite skater, but look how awful her technique is."

(Actually, you will see that because the part about being one's favorite skater isn't true.)

KOBOT37 · Feb 25, 2020

Whereas a cheated quad loop effectively becomes a triple axel when it's cheated.

Yes, it does, and it's almost always called when it does, simply because it's damn hard not to see it.

If anybody wonders, this is how toe-axel(actual 'cheated take off') looks like

https://i.trbna.com/preset/wysiwyg/5/a8/4647a299111ea8b31d434acbf66fd.jpeg

Here is another example, downgrade rightly called against Akatyeva (2 toeloop downgraded to single toe)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRRGZQbHuX0&feature=youtu.be&t=200

Mathman · Feb 25, 2020

KOBOT37 said:
If anybody wonders, this is how toe-axel (actual 'cheated take off') looks like

https://i.trbna.com/preset/wysiwyg/5/a8/4647a299111ea8b31d434acbf66fd.jpeg

Wait. Are you saying that this jump was intended to be a quad loop, but it was actually a triple Axel? It looks like an ordinary triple Axel to me.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Feb 25, 2020

KOBOT37 said:
Yes, it does, and it's almost always called when it does, simply because it's damn hard not to see it.

If anybody wonders, this is how toe-axel(actual 'cheated take off') looks like

https://i.trbna.com/preset/wysiwyg/5/a8/4647a299111ea8b31d434acbf66fd.jpeg

Here is another example, downgrade rightly called against Akatyeva (2 toeloop downgraded to single toe)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRRGZQbHuX0&feature=youtu.be&t=200

Thank you for this!

I wish I could paste it on every post that erroneously conflates pre-rotation with a cheated takeoff. But it would take forever given all the PR truthers (PRuthers? :laugh:

) and probably fall on blind eyes.

It shows precisely the difference between a cheated takeoff like Mai’s where she turns her left hip outwards so much that she actually places her toepick forwards — versus a skater planting their pick backwards and turning their pick on the ice (pre rotation) which is not ideal technique but also not a cheated takeoff.

KOBOT37 · Feb 25, 2020

Mathman said:
Wait. Are you saying that this jump was intended to be a quad loop, but it was actually a triple Axel? It looks like an ordinary triple Axel to me.

That definitely wasn't triple Axel :biggrin:

It was intended as a triple, but due to Forward take off(actual forward take off) ended up as a double axel.

Sam-Skwantch · Feb 25, 2020

Mathman said:
Wait. Are you saying that this jump was intended to be a quad loop, but it was actually a triple Axel? It looks like an ordinary triple Axel to me.

It’s supposed to be a triple toeloop! It is the definition of what a clear forward takeoff looks like and yes.....it is basically a double axel. The difference between a toe axel and a toe loop is easy to spot.

I think the ISU needs to address this pre rotation discussion and make it clear that what someone like Sasha is doing is clearly an acceptable jump. To me the difference between Sasha and Mai is the weight transfer. Mai spins a full 180 on the ice before beginning to lift her momentum into the air and is clearly facing forward at the moment of takeoff. Sasha begins her ascent at the moment she picks into the ice while still facing backward and then spins off the toepick with an upward momentum that begins before facing forward.

I can understand how some judges and fans may not be in complete agreement as to what the final GOE should be for jumps with prerotation. Here is what I think would be the most fair for jumps with noticeable prerotation.

PreRotation: GOE Suggested Guidelines

-1 to -3 for excessive PreRotation (180 degrees)
*Final GOE does NOT have to be negative

-5 for excessive PreRotation with visible weight on the toepick and clear lack of upward momentum at or beyond 180 degrees during takeoff
*Final GOE must be negative

ISU really needs to get out in front of this debate. There are a lot of videos with significant view counts that are full of very loose interpretations of the rules or worse yet flat out filled with blatant misinformation.

Mathman · Feb 25, 2020

KOBOT37 said:
That definitely wasn't triple Axel

I can never tell the difference between a double Axel and a triple Axel in real time.

Once I went to a local club show that featured young skaters at various levels. I wrote up a report crediting every skater with a double Axel. Someone connected with the club corrected my report -- those were all single Axels. Only one skater in the whole show did a double Axel (the headliner, Yuka Sato). :eek:

:

Sam-Skwantch said:
It’s supposed to be a triple toeloop! It is the definition of what a clear forward takeoff looks like and yes.....it is basically a double axel....

I can understand how some judges and fans may not be in complete agreement as to what the final GOE should be for jumps with prerotation. ...

Thank you for that explanation.

Wjen I look at that jump, I see an Axel. I do not see anything about it that would make me -- if I were the technical specialist -- want to say, "that's a toe loop with negative GOE." Why isn't it just a double Axel, so called and so scored?

I agree that this is nothing like the pre-rotation that we see in some ladies' quads.

(It may, however, be easier for judges to count from the moment the toe pick leaves the ice rather than to try to determine excatly when the skater's weight begins to shift?)

Edwin · Feb 25, 2020

When you want to support gender equality in sports: yes
When you want to prevent Russia dominating figure skating even more: no

PyeongChang2018 · Feb 25, 2020

Edwin said:
When you want to support gender equality in sports: yes
When you want to prevent Russia dominating figure skating even more: no

I'm a Yes, and I support allowing women and girls to compete quintuples. I also think they should be judged with as strict a pen as other jumps.

kolyadafan2002 · Feb 26, 2020

I have come to the conclusion that I'm happy with prerotated jumps as long as its reflected in GOE (less prerotation should deserve significantly higher GOE).

To clarify for others, here are the general standard prerotation amounts :
Axel - 0.2-0.5 (0.5 lower goe though imo)
Toe - 0.5 (trusova does this well)
Salchow - 0.5
Loop - 0.5 (actually impossible to do less than 0.4 prerotstion for more than single.)
Flip - 0.25 (0.5+ lower goe)
Lutz - 0.25 (0.5+ lower GOE)

Please note this is just an opinion.

The one thing I dont like is full blade assist (even many men like dmitri aliev and shoma uno do this).

Anyways my view is that they should allow a solo quad in competition, then in 4 years time look back.

Mathman · Feb 26, 2020

Edwin said:
When you want to support gender equality in sports: yes
When you want to prevent Russia dominating figure skating even more: no

I have never been impressed by the argument that the SP (originally the "technical program") should be restricted to elements that the majority of skaters can perform (so that they can be compared, apples to apples). It always seemed to me that the comparison that we want to make is , who can do the most challenging technical feats? If I can do a triple Lutz and you can do a quad Lutz, then you win the technical program.

In my opinion, if you want to emphasize quality over "quantity," that question ought to be addressed in the long program. I am becoming more and more curious about what the ISU will come up with in its proposal for a "technical" program versus an "artistic" program.

Happy Skates · Feb 26, 2020

Mathman said:
I have never been impressed by the argument that the SP (originally the "technical program") should be restricted to elements that the majority of skaters can perform (so that they can be compared, apples to apples). It always seemed to me that the comparison that we want to make is , who can do the most challenging technical feats? If I can do a triple Lutz and you can do a quad Lutz, then you win the technical program.

In my opinion, if you want to emphasize quality over "quantity," that question ought to be addressed in the long program. I am becoming more and more curious about what the ISU will come up with in its proposal for a "technical" program versus an "artistic" program.

I don't completely mind the whole "technical program" thing with comparing skills that everyone can do. But if you're going to do a technical program and compare skills that everyone can do, then you absolutely need to ban the triple axel, because by no means can every top lady do one, not even close. Either you need to allow 3As and quads, or ban them both. Otherwise there's no "technical program" argument at all, and its completely unfair.

Mathman · Feb 26, 2020

Happy Skates said:
I don't completely mind the whole "technical program" thing with comparing skills that everyone can do. But if you're going to do a technical program and compare skills that everyone can do, then you absolutely need to ban the triple axel, because by no means can every top lady do one, not even close.

Still, I think the whole idea goes counter to the add-up-the-points IJS scoring system. For instance, the rules require a triple jump. Fair enough. All top skaters should be able to do a triple jump. But one skater does a triple Lutz, while another does a triple flip, and a less talented jumper does a triple Salchow. And a more talented jumper does a triple Axel. They all get different base values, before we begin to think about things like height and distance, effortless throughout, smooth landing, etc. What exactly are we comparing here?

To me, the coolest idea that has been offered regarding changes in the "technical program" is the one about requiring all 6 different jumps. In the proposed three-and-a-half minute version there could be 6 jumping passes, with appropriate rules on combinations and repeats but no restrictions on the number of revolutions. It would be up to the skater to decide how to work in a toe loop, Salchow, loop, flip, Lutz and Axel.

To me, this would put every skater on the same footing, while at the same time encouraging a variety of different program layouts, and still provide rewards for the big jumpers.

Should Ladies Skating Allow Quads in the SP?

Happy Skates

lzxnl

PyeongChang2018

Happy Skates

cohen-esque

PyeongChang2018

KOBOT37

Match Penalty

Mathman

KOBOT37

Match Penalty

Mathman

CanadianSkaterGuy

KOBOT37

Match Penalty

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Mathman

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!

PyeongChang2018

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada

Mathman

Happy Skates

Mathman

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