Raising minimum age for seniors from 15 to 17? | Page 25 | Golden Skate

Raising minimum age for seniors from 15 to 17?

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
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Jan 1, 2013
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Australia
Still, although we can wish for politeness in general, we can't really blame the fans for liking what they like, for supporting whom they support, for wanting to see what they want to see. Criticizing fans fans for not liking what you and I think they ought to like ...it just doesn't work that way.

I think concert-goers should like more Haydn and less rock-and-roll. But they don't.

The concert-goers aren't buying up all the tickets, skipping the early bands to leave them playing to a near-empty house, showing up right before rock-and-roll, and leaving disruptively during Haydn, though.
 

TallyT

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Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Country
Australia
... Yes I know this. The point of this thread is to discuss each others ideas, I thought? So yes I asked a question to which the answer certainly isn't "the authorities don't want it" or "it doesn't matter" because then obviously the authorities don't want little fed skaters getting the mins to skate either. Nor would this be a thread, because this proposal has been shot down before and will be again. Nor would we have discussed the GPF idea.

I am aware equal opportunity doesn't always exist. I don't need to be told that, and I will bite back the comment I have for it. Doesn't mean we can't engage in debate. I can equally say in any much more important, political issues that "oh we aren't tptb, it doesn't matter, not always equally opportune". Hardly a discussion.

I understand, and I apologise for the tone I took; you have been nothing but polite to me, and I will certainly try from now on to return the courtesy. Thing is, I would love there to be a solution that would enable as many people as possible to be.... well, not happy, no. I doubt that has been achieved in sport since sometime early last century.
 

Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
The concert-goers aren't buying up all the tickets, skipping the early bands to leave them playing to a near-empty house, showing up right before rock-and-roll, and leaving disruptively during Haydn, though.

You're exaggerating.
 

Harriet

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Country
Australia
Can you prove to me that being in the LP - not top 10 or top 5, just the LP - somehow will make sure they get the funds to train and place higher next season for instance?

dAIS funding and ISA incentive payments. If Brendan Kerry and Kailani Craine make the FS they get incentive payments from ISA, if they make top 50% of the FS they get bigger ones and if they make top 10 they get higher ones again, and the higher they place in the FS, the more funding they're eligible for from the Australian Institute of Sport. Each of those payments, however small, improves their access to training, choreography and costuming options and means they stand a stronger chance of improving on their placements from previous years.
 

Skatesocs

Final Flight
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May 16, 2020
dAIS funding and ISA incentive payments. If Brendan Kerry and Kailani Craine make the FS they get incentive payments from ISA, if they make top 50% of the FS they get bigger ones and if they make top 10 they get higher ones again, and the higher they place in the FS, the more funding they're eligible for from the Australian Institute of Sport. Each of those payments, however small, improves their access to training, choreography and costuming options and means they stand a stronger chance of improving on their placements from previous years.

Thanks. I'm happy for this material reason instead of emotional appeals that were going on before. I do think there can be a way to restructure worlds while making sure no fed is at a loss (ultimately it's not like I want Russia to have 8 ladies spots), but it would need work from the ISU, and at the same time it would need work from the small feds to strengthen their skating programs to at least promote their top talents. Again the talent pool has increased - across the world - and there do need to be some more spots available for the athletes who train as much as they do. And again it's not like Korean ladies or Chinese Pairs were always as strong as they are now - it took a giant. Even Russian Ladies really only became as present as they did after 2010. And commentators noted an influx of Japanese ladies in early 2000s.

EDIT: And before someone @s me, I am not convinced this is a reason to restrict the top feds' entries to three. The top skating talents - if good enough to make the LP despite all the rhetoric of how specifically they are being punched down by big feds - will do so anyway. It's not a strong reason for quotas to make certain that small fed skaters *will* make the LP, in my opinion. I acknowledge judging is an issue, but to me not considering the other half of this matter doesn't lead to a fulfilling solution. I'd rather fix the judging in that case.
 

icestorm

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 23, 2019
Personally i adore JGP series, so many competitors from all other the world. Such a pleasure to watch them, different schools, all kinds of skill level from the very top to beginners
And when i look at the senior GP, i don't understand what happened to all those juniors. Why can't they compete there. It doesn't make any sense
Aren't they supposed to promote the sport, where is the inclusion
Why there are no beginners hockey teams in the NHL playoffs? Where is the inclusion?
This sort of talk is disgraceful. There are no beginners at Worlds for the small countries.
karne
Disgraceful what? The post was about why weak skaters from JGP don't get a spots in senior GP later, if you could read carefully what you answer for.
 

Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
I think that the current age limits are about right. I do not advocate any changes (and frankly, I do not think that the ISU does, either.) Fifteen and sixteen year old skaters have always led the way in this sport. That's just how it is.

But I have to admit that I am disappointed in the so-called "arguments" put forward by advocates of the youngsters. Instead of debating the issue, all I read is, "You don't care about young or old, you just hate Russia (or Eteri Tutberidzee), boo hoo." I wish there were some actual content posted about the question instead of wallowing in imagined national victimhood and martyrdom.

If only I'd remembered a bit back. Here's an actual argument, presented 15 years back, when two new phenoms were denied entry into Torino: https://youtu.be/v4DVPCbs8LE?t=260
 

AshWagsFan

Edges for days.
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The length of the broadcast of the junior worlds ladies SP 2020 is 6 hours 15 minutes (47 skaters, 48 planned, 1 withdrawal). It's not that bad, but if someone considers that too long for a TV, there is a solution. One of the good things our public TV did was this, during the Europeans the first part of the ladies was broadcasted via TV web page and the stronger warm-up groups via TV. So they broadcasted the full length and didn't loose too much of the expensive TV time :)

I’d love to see a Grand Prix system that is similar to the Diamond League in track and field. There are multiple countries that host competitions (with some countries being allowed to host multiple competitions in different cities). There are different events hosted at each competition, and the top placers all go to the GPF. I think it would be cool to merge the challenger series with the Grand Prix to have a much longer Grand Prix season that would be fun. For example, at Finlandia, you could have dance and ladies compete, and at Lombardía, you could have men and pairs compete, and so on.

I think this would be fun, as we could see more skaters (and senior skaters that struggle to get out of their country) competing on the Grand Prix, without the long TV air time! I know ISU probably wouldn’t do this, but I would certainly enjoy it if they did. This would also allow more older skaters to compete on the Grand Prix while still giving the young skaters an opportunity to shine and make names for themselves.

Edit: I didn’t realize the post I quoted is about junior worlds, I thought it was a different one about giving more Grand Prix assignments haha. :)
 

flanker

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Feb 10, 2018
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Czech-Republic
I’d love to see a Grand Prix system that is similar to the Diamond League in track and field. There are multiple countries that host competitions (with some countries being allowed to host multiple competitions in different cities). There are different events hosted at each competition, and the top placers all go to the GPF. I think it would be cool to merge the challenger series with the Grand Prix to have a much longer Grand Prix season that would be fun. For example, at Finlandia, you could have dance and ladies compete, and at Lombardía, you could have men and pairs compete, and so on.

I think this would be fun, as we could see more skaters (and senior skaters that struggle to get out of their country) competing on the Grand Prix, without the long TV air time! I know ISU probably wouldn’t do this, but I would certainly enjoy it if they did. This would also allow more older skaters to compete on the Grand Prix while still giving the young skaters an opportunity to shine and make names for themselves.

Edit: I didn’t realize the post I quoted is about junior worlds, I thought it was a different one about giving more Grand Prix assignments haha. :)

You mean this one? At least my ideas don't disappear :)
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
If only I'd remembered a bit back. Here's an actual argument, presented 15 years back, when two new phenoms were denied entry into Torino: https://youtu.be/v4DVPCbs8LE?t=260

Here is the difference. When Mao Asada and Yuna Kim were age ineligible to compete at the 2006 Olympics, the argument was: "They should be allowed to compete because they are the best, never mind age." The other side was, "Have patience. They will still be the best next year when they graduate into seniors."

Now the discussion is more along the lines, "You hate my county" versus "You hate mine more."

(I do have to admit, though, that leading up to the 2010 Olympics when Mao and Kim were rivals instead of co-victims, we saw a lot of posts re-fighting World War II and reliving war atrocities in the Pacific theater.)
 

Skatesocs

Final Flight
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Here is the difference. When Mao Asada and Yuna Kim were age ineligible to compete at the 2006 Olympics, the argument was: "They should be allowed to compete because they are the best, never mind age." The other side was, "Have patience. They will still be the best next year when they graduate into seniors."

Now the discussion is more along the lines, "You hate my county" versus "You hate mine more."

No I understand the current discussions take bad tangents. Although both those sides are presented even now. I just posted that video to show it's a really old debate with legitimate argument to be had. It's why I say "here's an actual argument". I was reading the thread too lol
 

Baron Vladimir

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Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Ok, so i have been rewatching some of Mao and Caro's later years videos trying to compare their 'better days' with Alena and Rika's best performances and this is my conclusion - Alena and Rika are superior in most of their required elements except in the step sequence. In the components, they are already on pair with them in TRansitions and COmposition categories (in some of the aspects 'older' skaters are better and in some of them 'youngsters' are ahead, but taking the whole category they are more/less equal). Now, Mao and Caro are probably ahead in Skating Skills and PErformance, but by a very small margin - 0.25 points in my opinion. The only 'clear' advantage Mao and Caro have is in INterpretation of the music category, precisely just in one criteria of it - expressing nuances of the music, and because of that the overall advantage in that category should be not more than 0.5 points. In general, i don't see how mature Mao and Caro skating performances are that better in components than younger Alena and Rika performances except in that one part of that one category. So, i really don't see any point in changing the age rules just to see skating performances which are just a half point better in IN of the music - which is just a 20% part of the components and 10% of the whole skating programme. If the sport is named 'musical skating' i would understand why mature skaters can be better performers, but in a sport which is named 'figure skating' i don't see such a thing. As i've been already saying, i would change the age rule because of the completely different arguments (of scientific nature) and in that case the minimum age should be raised for one year, going from 15 to 16 yo.
(Editing: i won't comment much on the other arguments of raising the age minimum cause i find them degrading for the sport as a whole and humans in sport, as for example a 'body type/shape of a body' argument or an 'idol argument' - from human developmental point of view that argument doesn't make sense, nor it is needed for people in the audience to have idols at all. Figure skating as an olympic sport should be based on ideal skating performances, not on 'idolizing skater personas' or 'their looks').
 

Happy Skates

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 18, 2019
Here is the difference. When Mao Asada and Yuna Kim were age ineligible to compete at the 2006 Olympics, the argument was: "They should be allowed to compete because they are the best, never mind age." The other side was, "Have patience. They will still be the best next year when they graduate into seniors."

Now the discussion is more along the lines, "You hate my county" versus "You hate mine more."

(I do have to admit, though, that leading up to the 2010 Olympics when Mao and Kim were rivals instead of co-victims, we saw a lot of posts re-fighting World War II and reliving war atrocities in the Pacific theater.)

I know there is a lot of "you hate my country" talk, but there's also a lot of legitimate arguments going now if you sift through that.
 

AshWagsFan

Edges for days.
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Oct 14, 2017
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United-States
I know there is a lot of "you hate my country" talk, but there's also a lot of legitimate arguments going now if you sift through that.

Nationalism is a big part of this sport. I do think that certain nation’s skaters are more heavily scrutinized and praised than others, which is also why ISU is not necessarily ready to make an age limit change. It would be too controversial, and it would draw a line in the sand between fans and coaches of skaters between all of the countries. This division would not be good for ISU.
 
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