Raising minimum age for seniors from 15 to 17? | Page 17 | Golden Skate

Raising minimum age for seniors from 15 to 17?

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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Mar 3, 2014
Country
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I just wanted to say that thanks to our Australian friends I now know the terms "furphy" and "carry on like a pork chop", neither of which I had ever heard outside of Goldenskate.

I like learning:)

Back to our regularly scheduled program......
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
We may have to adjust our thinking as to what constitutes a "long" career in ladies skating. Medvedeva had a long reign. She won almost everything there was to win over the better part of four years, counting juniors, and was just barely nipped at he Olympics. I would not say that Alina Zagitova's career was cut short, even if she does not skate competitively again. She had three years of dominance, counting juniors, and put the exclamation point on her career by winning 2019 worlds.
 

Amei

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
:unsure:

I, in the name of Eteri, apologize that instead of training Zagitova to win every trophy where is to win in the FS, she didn't train her to land quads. After all, preventing domination of these 15 years old kids and being competitive as long as possible is the goal every figure skater should strive for, instead they went for winning trophies then and where, HOW DARE THEY!!!

P.S I don't know what you heard or seen, but at the last world Championship, 2 people,including one Eteri's Student landed Quad/3A and at least 2 more could land it or were training to land it. I recommend you to follow the FS news more closely, you seem to be missing things out.

My post was complimentary of Eteri's methods - she trains her Juniors to beat seniors; the seniors know what those skaters are doing in Juniors but none of the coaches seem to look at their senior skater and plan for new elements to be technically competitive when that junior skater is a senior skater.
 

KOBOT37

Match Penalty
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
My post was complimentary of Eteri's methods - she trains her Juniors to beat seniors; the seniors know what those skaters are doing in Juniors but none of the coaches seem to look at their senior skater and plan for new elements to be technically competitive when that junior skater is a senior skater.

Most coaches train seniors to win then and there, as they should.
 

eppen

Medalist
Joined
Mar 28, 2006
Country
Spain
I did not have the energy to go through the entire thread very carefully, so forgive me if this was already part of the discussion. But I went through the ladies worlds medalists from 1955 to 2019 and looked at the age when they first entered senior ranks, when they first medaled in a major competition in senior ranks and when they first won (if they won) a major competition. Then I also looked at their career lengths and, if there was a junior one, how many seasons that was. The first year was sort of arbitrary, but 1955 gives a perspective to what happens today. 84 ladies all in all, all top skaters of their day!

From 1955 until around mid-90s 53 skaters (I drew the line between Irina Slutskaya and Tara Lipinski, so not along the 1996 age limit rule imposition, but very close to it anyway). The average age for entering senior ranks was 15 years, the youngest was 11 (Anett Pötsch (GDR) and the oldest 18 (4 ladies, Julie Lynn Holmes (USA), Debi Thomas (USA), Caryn Kadavy (USA), Jill Trenary (USA). They mostly had to compete for two years or so before medaling at 17 and then the next season they started winning at 18. The youngest medalist was again Anett Pötsch at 14, and 5 were already champions at 15 years of age (Ingrid Wendl (AUT), Hanna Eigel (AUT), Janet Lynn (USA), Oksana Baiul (UKR), Michelle Kwan (USA). The average length of a senior career was 7 seasons and some may have had a season in the juniors from the mid-1980s onwards. The short ones with only 2-4 seasons were 10 in number (Hanna Eigel (AUT), Barbara Roles (USA), Julie Lynn Holmes (USA), Rosalynn Sumners (USA+1 junior), Debi Thomas (USA), Caryn Kadavy (USA), Kristi Yamaguchi (USA+1 junior), Oksana Baiul (UKR), Yuka Sato (JPN+ 2 juniors), Tanja Szewczenko (GER+2 juniors). 7 ladies had a career with 10 or more seasons in seniors (Sjoukje Dijkstra (NED), Gabriele Seyfert (AUT), Anett Pötsch (GDR), Katarina Witt (GDR), Kira Ivanova (URSS+1 junior), Midori Ito (JPN+ 2 juniors), Michelle Kwan (USA+2 juniors), Irina Slutskaya (RUS+3 juniors).

Things to consider when interpreting these numbers. First, compulsory figures tended to hinder the rocketing careers of good jumpers - time and experience were important there. The first ever lightning fast career was Oksana Baiul immediately after the abolition of the figures. Secondly, the 6.0 system maybe tended to favour experience and familiarity even more then IJS, a new girl would not get super high scores even if they might have merited it (technically). Thirdly, a junior career did not exist - if you could, yuu went straight to the seniors, the wannabes were mostly doing junior worlds until the late 1990s. Fifth, the division between amateur and professional was watertight until late in the 1990s. I don't think it is a coincidence that many of the short careers are from US skaters who could turn pro and start making money more easily than the rest of the world. There were also many opportunities for doing that.

Then mid-90s to 2019 with 29 skaters. Average entry to seniors at 16, but this is after 15 became the official senior entry age. The oldest is Laura Lepistö (FIN) at the tender age of 19. The average age for both first medaling and first major win is 18. The 14 to 16 year olds winning major competitions for the first time are 8 in number (Tara Lipinski (USA), Sarah Hughes (USA), Kimmie Meissner (USA), Mao Asada (JPN), Yuna Kim (KOR), Yulia Lipnitskaya (RUS), Evgenia Medvedeva (RUS), Alina Zagitova (RUS). Average career length is 7 seasons with 2 junior seasons before that. The 2-4 seasons careers have not been that common actually - 6 ladies (Tara Lipinski (USA), Sarah Hughes (USA), Kimmie Meissner (USA), Laura Lepistö (FIN), Wakaba Higuchi (JPN), Alina Zagitova (RUS) with one or two of them still continuing. 8 ladies skated for 10 or more seasons (Maria Butyrskaya (RUS), Fumie Suguri (JPN), Elena Sokolova (RUS), Carolina Kostner (ITA), Mao Asada (JPN), Alena Leonova (RUS), Akiko Suzuki (JPN), Ashley Wagner (USA). And these are mostly even longer because all but Butyrskaya had at least one junior season before seniors.

So, actually not much has changed since the 1990s. But in fact the current skaters start seniors later, achieve medals and major victories later than the ladies from the 1950s to mid-1990s. The average length is the same, the numbers of very short and very long careers roughly the same. However, junior seasons make their careers longer than before. There is also no need to turn professional - the few tours and shows tend to be organized off season or between major competitions so that those who get invited/cast can also participate and make money of their skating whilst competing.

I personally would not go for raising the senior age. The senior start age does not seem to have much to do with how their careers turn out. However, without knowing exactly what was the reason for quitting early or going on for a long time, it is hard to draw proper conclusions. For example, Laura Lepistö entered the senior ranks at 19 after 5 seasons in the juniors and then went on for only 3 seasons quitting mostly because of injuries - but certainly no quads in her repertoire (not even a 3Lz btw) nor other big problems. In the recent discussion, she has said she was happy skating, had no problems what so ever. The comparison can be made to Kiira Korpi who was skating very much at the same but who did 3 junior seasons and 11 senior ones, was at her first senior competition at 15 years of age, got her first medal in a big competition at 19. She held on to her sports career for an incredibly long time despite all the now self confessed mental and physical problems. You can find individual stories to support any and all arguments, but I do think for proper assessment fuller knowledge and statistics would be needed.

Most past and current big stars, whether with short or long careers, tend to start very early and also get a lot of success when they are young. If the age limit would be 17, then some of their best years of skating competetively would potentially be erased. An earlier post from the thread stated that if the age limit were raised, the ladies junior worlds would be technically at a higher level than the seniors and, I agree, that could be the case and it would be a bit ridiculous. Unless the tech difficulty would be forbidden for the juniors which could be the logical result of the health/injury argument.

E
 

Dr Flutz

Match Penalty
Joined
May 26, 2020
I understand the desire of some people to artificially lengthen the careers of ladies skaters by keeping the best (younger) skaters out by age limits but that is just crazy to lower the quality of athletic and artistic competition by keeping the best skaters on the sidelines (that is, in the juniors circuit). Juniors do of course need a max age, as we don't need juniors to have to compete against every skater still hanging on to whatever remains at old age by dropping down back to juniors, but there is no need to have a minimum age. If you are good enough, go do the juniors. Likewise, if you are good enough, go do the seniors. At any age. No need to keep out best skaters from top competition. I vouch for NO age limits at all at seniors. No restrictions other than a minimum score at juniors to qualify to seniors. And then stay there until not good enough versus competition. Any kind of prejudiced discrimination including age discrimination is just plain wrong.
 

ruga

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 20, 2017
I understand the desire of some people to artificially lengthen the careers of ladies skaters by keeping the best (younger) skaters out by age limits but that is just crazy to lower the quality of athletic and artistic competition by keeping the best skaters on the sidelines (that is, in the juniors circuit). Juniors do of course need a max age, as we don't need juniors to have to compete against every skater still hanging on to whatever remains at old age by dropping down back to juniors, but there is no need to have a minimum age. If you are good enough, go do the juniors. Likewise, if you are good enough, go do the seniors. At any age. No need to keep out best skaters from top competition. I vouch for NO age limits at all at seniors. No restrictions other than a minimum score at juniors to qualify to seniors. And then stay there until not good enough versus competition. Any kind of prejudiced discrimination including age discrimination is just plain wrong.

I'd definitely like to see skating with no artificial limits, but the way judges score must be changed. These days clean program with at least one 3+ rotation element will get no less than 8.5 for PCS even if many qualities are not present. So I'm afraid that an 11 year old with a quad or two but with little to no understanding of performance and interpretation would still get high components. Seeing 90 TES and 40 PCS should be normalized - that way the sport won't be biased for teaching difficult elements for kids as young as possible and older skaters would still have a chance to make up for the difference with components.
 

Fried

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 14, 2020
I understand the desire of some people to artificially lengthen the careers of ladies skaters by keeping the best (younger) skaters out by age limits but that is just crazy to lower the quality of athletic and artistic competition by keeping the best skaters on the sidelines (that is, in the juniors circuit). Juniors do of course need a max age, as we don't need juniors to have to compete against every skater still hanging on to whatever remains at old age by dropping down back to juniors, but there is no need to have a minimum age. If you are good enough, go do the juniors. Likewise, if you are good enough, go do the seniors. At any age. No need to keep out best skaters from top competition. I vouch for NO age limits at all at seniors. No restrictions other than a minimum score at juniors to qualify to seniors. And then stay there until not good enough versus competition. Any kind of prejudiced discrimination including age discrimination is just plain wrong.

If there is a plea here to drop all barriers, then please also the gender barriere! :devil:
 

Dr Flutz

Match Penalty
Joined
May 26, 2020
I'd definitely like to see skating with no artificial limits, but the way judges score must be changed. These days clean program with at least one 3+ rotation element will get no less than 8.5 for PCS even if many qualities are not present. So I'm afraid that an 11 year old with a quad or two but with little to no understanding of performance and interpretation would still get high components. Seeing 90 TES and 40 PCS should be normalized - that way the sport won't be biased for teaching difficult elements for kids as young as possible and older skaters would still have a chance to make up for the difference with components.

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. I'm a fan of many skaters, but my favorites are Valieva and Kostornaia. Because the quality is so high, and the performances invariably exquisitely beautiful. Personally, I don't need to see Aliona do a quad for her to be worthy of a win, but the TES is what it is. Thus, if she does 3A & 3A+eu+3x or 3A+3x, and someone else goes for five quads and falls on two (so TES=[3 x 100% quad +/- GOE + 2 x 50% quad(s) +/-GOEs +/- otheradjusts] = 4 x quad(s) 100% +/- 4 x GOEs), but the level of difficulty and competence and beauty exhibited in the edge-work, step-sequences, spins, is drastically different, I want the PCS to very strongly reflect that.
 

Dr Flutz

Match Penalty
Joined
May 26, 2020
If there is a plea here to drop all barriers, then please also the gender barriere! :devil:

Even if you may be jokingly playing the devil's advocate, I have spent a lot of time thinking about that, and not just in ice skating.

I think it is important to have women's sports. Because of fundamental biological mean variance between men and women, it seems reasonable to have two separate categories as such and as we have now, rather than only one. Having said that, I have heard at least one Russian skater say in answer to that very point, that in exhibitions men and women skate together, but as there is no judging in galas, the purpose of the statement remains unclear. Personally, I'd like a "fun-type" of judging, i.e. just for fun, just as everything else in exhibition galas is just for entertainment, and not for competition, but, really, just for fun, like an extra piece of entertainment, to have a judge panel participate in EX gala, using real comp judging criteria, in men vs. women, and in pairs, and dancers vs. singles, just to see how it could go, scores-wise... I think that would be a fun thing to see, at least once.
 

Fried

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 14, 2020
I think it is important to have women's sports. Because of fundamental biological mean variance between men and women (...)
Similarly, the physiological (and BTW also psychological) difference between girls and women can be used for the need for a minimum age. One should not measure by two standards.
 

Dr Flutz

Match Penalty
Joined
May 26, 2020
Similarly, the physiological (and BTW also psychological) difference between girls and women can be used for the need for a minimum age. One should not measure by two standards.

I strongly disagree. I made a point why the one and only criteria, men vs. women should be kept as is, and likewise made a point for fairness in that the best of the best must be allowed to compete at the highest level of competition (ISU "seniors", and the IOC "Olympics") regardless of age.
 

flanker

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Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
Similarly, the physiological (and BTW also psychological) difference between girls and women can be used for the need for a minimum age. One should not measure by two standards.

It's not two standards when saying that girl of any age is closer to being a woman than a man of any age will ever be :shrug:

Though I am for junior category, but junior category and competitions should serve as a preparation of the young athletes for their future senior career, not as a cage that should hold back those who are already capable of competing at the highest level (and protection of the "meritorious" athletes from their competitors).
 

Fried

Final Flight
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Jan 14, 2020
I strongly disagree.
What you agree with and what you don't do is up to you. For example, I would find the removal of age limits with regard to women and girls completely ignorant and absolutely out of the question. To argue with discrimination here is ridiculous. That being said, the discussion has been going round in circles for a long time.
 

Dr Flutz

Match Penalty
Joined
May 26, 2020
It's not two standards when saying that girl of any age is closer to being a woman than a man of any age will ever be :shrug:

Though I am for junior category, but junior category and competitions should serve as a preparation of the young athletes for their future senior career, not as a cage that should hold back those who are already capable of competing at the highest level (and protection of the "meritorious" athletes from their competitors).

Thank you @flanker!
My sentiments, precisely!
 

Shayuki

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Similarly, the physiological (and BTW also psychological) difference between girls and women can be used for the need for a minimum age. One should not measure by two standards.
And how is that? You realize that 18 is just an arbitrary age, right? No one suddenly becomes an adult at 18. Or 17. Or 21. Girls can have significant differences when it comes to their rate of development.

In general, I think that age limits aren't very productive for a sport such as this, that just consists of solo performances. The difference's quite significant when comparing to ice hockey for example, where being young and underdeveloped can actually result in serious dangers, but there's no such dynamic when it comes to figure skating.

If we start imposing age limits with the sole purpose of keeping the best skaters from skating at seniors, then it becomes completely counterproductive. For example, we can think of university and education. Generally, you'll enter university at 18 or so, but if you're a genius and good enough, there's nothing stopping you from entering at the age of 13, for instance. As it should be.
 

Fried

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 14, 2020
If we start imposing age limits with the sole purpose of keeping the best skaters from skating at seniors, then it becomes completely counterproductive. For example, we can think of university and education. Generally, you'll enter university at 18 or so, but if you're a genius and good enough, there's nothing stopping you from entering at the age of 13, for instance. As it should be.
Harharhar, what a delicious comparison! :laugh2: It could hardly be more absurd.
BTW: Is there also a distinction between male and female? :cool:
 

starlight97

Final Flight
Joined
Jun 14, 2014
I can't believe this discussion is even happening.
Figure skating is already a sport that's smirked at by many and not taken too seriously because of arbitrary judging with rules that change every season that makes it very hard to understand for an average viewer why the girl with lower athletic content wins over another one cause of better "presentation", one gets an edge call the other doesn't although both took off of the wrong edge etc etc

And now people want to raise the age limit in order to lock the best athletes in juniors with the thin air explanation that that would "lengthen their careers"? How so? Or that it would be good for the sport?
Can you name any other sport where the top athletes are caged into juniors and therefore the junior competitions have higher level than the seniors ones? Thinking about the broad public, not hardcore fans like we are on this forum, why would people watch seniors anymore when juniors outscore them by 30 points?
And why watch these juniors who cannot go for the big medals and exciting competitions cause they are not allowed until they're 18?
It's neither understandable nor engaging and very bad the sport overall
 

starlight97

Final Flight
Joined
Jun 14, 2014
PS: And if you say "I don't care about appealing to the broader audience, I only care about the skaters" then reconsider because without viewers there are no people financing the sport and the ones who will suffer the most are the athletes.
Look at what and average football player at a midlevel club gets paid per year to sit on the bench.
Easily much more than Zagitivo or Medvedeva at their highest ever made. And looking at the top players at Real Madrid, Ronaldo, Messi etc I don't even need to tell you.
Anything in football is talked about in millions, transfers, salaries etc

Yuna and Hanyu, probably the skaters who make the most, can't even dream of that. Why? Because football is a popular sport with a big revenue and FS isn't.
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
PS: And if you say "I don't care about appealing to the broader audience, I only care about the skaters" then reconsider because without viewers there are no people financing the sport and the ones who will suffer the most are the athletes.
Look at what and average football player at a midlevel club gets paid per year to sit on the bench.
Easily much more than Zagitivo or Medvedeva at their highest ever made. And looking at the top players at Real Madrid, Ronaldo, Messi etc I don't even need to tell you.
Anything in football is talked about in millions, transfers, salaries etc

Yuna and Hanyu, probably the skaters who make the most, can't even dream of that. Why? Because football is a popular sport with a big revenue and FS isn't.

Tennis player eliminated at the first round of Wimbledon gets the slary approx. the same as Zhenya or Alina received for their victory at worlds.
 
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