Why there are no beginners hockey teams in the NHL playoffs? Where is the inclusion?
Raising minimum age for seniors from 15 to 17?
- Thread starter moonvine
- Start date
The length of the broadcast of the junior worlds ladies SP 2020 is 6 hours 15 minutes (47 skaters, 48 planned, 1 withdrawal). It's not that bad, but if someone considers that too long for a TV, there is a solution. One of the good things our public TV did was this, during the Europeans the first part of the ladies was broadcasted via TV web page and the stronger warm-up groups via TV. So they broadcasted the full length and didn't loose too much of the expensive TV time
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
The length of the broadcast of the junior worlds ladies SP 2020 is 6 hours 15 minutes (47 skaters, 48 planned, 1 withdrawal). It's not that bad, but if someone considers that too long for a TV, there is a solution. One of the good things our public TV did was this, during the Europeans the first part of the ladies was broadcasted via TV web page and the stronger warm-up groups via TV. So they broadcasted the full length and didn't loose too much of the expensive TV time
In the U.S., the national television networks typically show the final warm-up group, plus one or two U.S. skaters from the second-to-last if they did exceptionally well. (If need be they can bump one of the top six who didn't make the podium.) With advertisements and fluff, this takes almost two hours which leaves them time to work in the winning ice dance performance, provided it was by an American.
The TV networks feel that this is about as much figure skating the American audience can sit still for.
US TV coverage is junk - example: IDF they showed us Shoma Uno's disaster FS but did not show Chock/Bates wonderful FD performance that won silver. And the Pairs competition doesn't seem to exist anymore, I think they showed Sui/Han from Cup of China, but that's the only Pairs skating I remember getting to see on NBC or NBC Sports.
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2018
- Country
-
More and shorter high-level competitions is IMO exactly what the sport should be aiming for in this day and age of fast and easily available entertainment. Expanding the GP series (more skaters, but also all the stars and drawcards will be in it, unlike challengers) and adding an extra flight to the final would add more content that average audiences could sit and watch without viewer fatigue, and give the top feds' second string and the up and comers from minor fed skaters a chance to win over fans and develop more real stars/drawcards.
Thing is, any major change has to be one that has a chance of being voted into existence. Otherwise it's just a lovely fantasy. I can imagine the federations big and small voting for this, as it is in their interests, more chances for their skaters without hitting that problem of competition length.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I think, though, that there is a difference between voting for "wouldn't it be nice if we did this," and actually doing it. The ISu might feel that it is already maxed out on the Grand Prix as it is, and the market just won't bear an expanded format.
I would favor working on the challenger series and other B events instead. They already get a smattering of top level skaters who are trying to boost their world ranking point totals or just wanting to work in an a extra competition to try out a new program.
To me, not every figure skating contest has to be for the championship of the universe. I like local club shows and contests, actually, even when they feature skaters that I have never heard of before. (And I also have to admit that I do not get any bigger a thrill if someone does a quad than I do at shows where a double Axel is the ultimate trick.)
Last edited:
But I mean again... Where does the ISU want to stop? Again just this season, it raised mins seemingly to cut off additional flights. An 8 more in ladies and 13 more in men compared to 2019 would actually help some small fed skaters to be at worlds too... Why would it fund and broadcast everything on the GP idea, if we don't think 48 can't be funded or broadcast? I can actually see 48 being proposed, but the GPF idea not even being if I think about it. It's a much more logistically complicated idea, even if everyone here agrees it's nice.
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
- Country
-
Except that by increasing spots for big countries, you automatically start eliminating little feds. Because you automatically make it harder for little feds to make the FS. You automatically start filling up the top 24 with the big country skaters and leaving no room for the little feds.
It's funny to see how people advocating for more spots for big country feds only care about long careers when they're big country skaters. No such consideration given to the career longevity of the little country feds, who are being tossed aside like garbage...
Did you read the rest of my responses in this thread? Or do you think that didn't even pop in my head?
And why exactly should little fed skaters *have* to have the opportunity to make the FS by eliminating big feds? No one brought up a reason for that beyond "I like watching them"- which they can do if they're in the SP. Why should they HAVE to have a quota to make the LP? They already get the chance to make it by being in the SP, and sorry but most of them don't make it anyway, because their funding is lacking, not specifically because big feds have overscored skaters. Can you prove to me that being in the LP - not top 10 or top 5, just the LP - somehow will make sure they get the funds to train and place higher next season for instance?
Sorry, but your impression of little fed skaters aren't the only valid ones, or even the most valid ones. If you are so concerned about them specifically, maybe you should put yourself through the rigours needed to be 4th best in Japan and then say the current system is completely fair.
And why exactly should little fed skaters *have* to have the opportunity to make the FS by eliminating big feds? No one brought up a reason for that beyond "I like watching them"- which they can do if they're in the SP. Why should they HAVE to have a quota to make the LP? They already get the chance to make it by being in the SP, and sorry but most of them don't make it anyway, because their funding is lacking, not specifically because big feds have overscored skaters. Can you prove to me that being in the LP - not top 10 or top 5, just the LP - somehow will make sure they get the funds to train and place higher next season for instance?
Sorry, but your impression of little fed skaters aren't the only valid ones, or even the most valid ones. If you are so concerned about them specifically, maybe you should put yourself through the rigours needed to be 4th best in Japan and then say the current system is completely fair.
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
- Country
-
They don't. Hanyu fans generally only arrive for the last two groups so they can see their man and don't care for the first groups. At smaller competitions it's even worse. I still remember seeing Hanyu fans leaving during the next skater's program at Autumn Classic a few years back.
Europeans and Four Continents are often the prize of the season for those who aren't quite at WC level for smaller countries. No-one at Australian Nationals talks about Worlds qualification outside of Brendan, Kailani, and our dance teams; the aim of the game is 4CC. When Jordan Dodds was named for 4CC this year, after years and years of trying, it felt like a victory all of its own. And so it was.
They do earn the spots on merits. You can't send someone who hasn't met the minimums. Getting those minimums is no walk in the park. Every skater who is at Worlds has earned the right to be there. They deserve more respect than you deign to show.
This sort of talk is disgraceful. There are no beginners at Worlds for the small countries. To get the minimums you need at least four triples (and you're borderline getting the minimums if you can't do above 3F). Denigrating their hard work to get to that point - with fewer resources, less ice time and often greater expenses than the big country skaters - is just disgusting.
Yes, I read the rest of your dismissive responses in this thread, your utter lack of care towards those littler countries, your attitude that they can be destroyed as long as you get more of your precious big-country skaters at Worlds.
And a lot of the ones who behave like you are describing aren't even usually Japanese.
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2018
- Country
-
Neither idea is being proposed by TPTB as far as I know; the ISU seem to be putting the length/numbers issue in the too hard basket and supergluing the lid shut. To me, and with a nod to Mathman's idea of bumping up the challengers (look at the audiences ACI can get some years) it's the difference between asking general fans to sit and watch one 6+ hour marathon - for one program in one discipline - and two or more 2+ hour ones.
I can also imagine longer championships getting voted in before I can see places being switched from the small feds to the current power base getting the nod. I think (I admit, I could be wrong, we all could) the former is slim to no chance, the latter.... no chance whatsoever. But the thing is, as I said, neither idea seems to be on any even theoretical agenda. Raising the minimum TES was and it happened, raising the minimum age is rumoured to be a talking point. But then... just talk?
OK I can acknowledge we are functioning on two different ideals for the event. Simple to implement vs watchability.
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2014
I think it is also important to remember that Russia has a vested interest in the growth of the sport. Many of their fine athletes go on to coach and advise other nations. If the smaller feds all die out those jobs will go with it.
If I were a savvy young Russian skater with great potential like Aliona or Anna or Kamila I would really want to see competition from everywhere. The U.S., Japan and Europe in particular because when nations have a contender they are more interested in the event and it gets more coverage so thus when I win more people see me and my name and status increase along with my opportunities.
Also, without small feds there is no Javi, no Stephane, no Bulgarian ID world champions, no German pairs program. Small feds need the right to compete on the world stage.
If I were a savvy young Russian skater with great potential like Aliona or Anna or Kamila I would really want to see competition from everywhere. The U.S., Japan and Europe in particular because when nations have a contender they are more interested in the event and it gets more coverage so thus when I win more people see me and my name and status increase along with my opportunities.
Also, without small feds there is no Javi, no Stephane, no Bulgarian ID world champions, no German pairs program. Small feds need the right to compete on the world stage.
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2018
- Country
-
And again we have to have a dig, don't we? I was talking about Japanese fans as a whole, online and TV, and the ratings figures which have been made available by the major networks make it clear that the vast majority of Japanese skating fans, including huge numbers of Yuzu's, watch and love many many skaters from all nations (commentators have also mentioned this numerous times). But if even they find the six hours a slog, what hope has the ISU of persuading other countries?
Because it's Worlds, them's the rules for Worlds, and the only people who can change the rules are Not. Going. To. Whether it makes me happy to see them there doesn't matter one whit more than whether it makes you unhappy to not see Russian Lady 4-6. Yes, it may be unfair. It may be equally unfair that skaters in some countries get more funding and therefore chances than skaters in those where the government don't care about the sport, but that isn't going to change either. There is no such thing as equal opportunity in a myriad of ways.
'World championship' and 'NHL playoff' are actually different things, I think you'll find.
But if I use the reasons given to me on the thread, small fed skaters simply HAVE to make the LP at worlds, so that people who like watching them can continue to do so, and even if they had the talent to make it to the LP on their own strengths once given the opportunity to skate the SP, it just doesn't matter, because the big feds are purposefully trying to oppress small fed skaters through overscoring, and they'll never make it even if Russia wants to see the sport develop and if willing to coach and advice small feds. I am not sure why using this reasoning and that of "WORLD championship" we haven't yet said each country should be sending only one skater per country, so that the LP has 4 big feds, 5 medium sized feds, and 15 small feds, to make it truly fair. But here we are, being entirely unfair.
... Yes I know this. The point of this thread is to discuss each others ideas, I thought? So yes I asked a question to which the answer certainly isn't "the authorities don't want it" or "it doesn't matter" because then obviously the authorities don't want little fed skaters getting the mins to skate either. Nor would this be a thread, because this proposal has been shot down before and will be again. Nor would we have discussed the GPF idea.
I am aware equal opportunity doesn't always exist. I don't need to be told that, and I will bite back the comment I have for it. Doesn't mean we can't engage in debate. I can equally say in any much more important, political issues that "oh we aren't tptb, it doesn't matter, not always equally opportune". Hardly a discussion.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Still, although we can wish for politeness in general, we can't really blame the fans for liking what they like, for supporting whom they support, for wanting to see what they want to see. Criticizing fans fans for not liking what you and I think they ought to like ...it just doesn't work that way.
I think concert-goers should like more Haydn and less rock-and-roll. But they don't.
Usually yes, but I have a newly discovered appreciation for The Beatles. Maybe Haydn playing a Beatles hit.
Similar threads
