Raising minimum age for seniors from 15 to 17? | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Raising minimum age for seniors from 15 to 17?

rain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
So, you don't care about raising number of strong skaters and competition among juniors as a result of raising the age (and thus - raising likelihood of unhealthy diets among juniors)? It seems your real reason is and
first and foremost. Judging by what you said - all you care about is seniors. Or, to speak more specifically, preserving comfortable and familiar picture of what fs was 10-20 years ago. And juniors health is just an excuse.

Well that's a complete misrepresentation of what I said. Did you read my post at all? I would suggest that by raising the age of seniors it will also help those at the junior level because the focus will be on building sustainable skills, not so focused on pounding their bodies into dust and starving them into delayed puberty for ephemeral results.

I make no apologies at all for wanting the sport to celebrate women and for the athletes to be able to have long careers. I'd hope that most people who see the athletes as real people, not just something to briefly entertain the fickle masses, would want the same.

And I'll just point out that the current crop of young women certainly didn't invent the idea of doing triple axels and quads in seniors — go talk to Miki Ando, Midori Ito, Liza T. and Tonya Harding.
 

YuBluByMe

May Rika spin her hair into GOLD….in 2026.
Final Flight
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
And I'll just point out that the current crop of young women certainly didn't invent the idea of doing triple axels and quads in seniors — go talk to Miki Ando, Midori Ito, Liza T. and Tonya Harding.

They may not have invented it, but they sure as hell revolutionized it and took it to the next level. There was not a flurry of women going for quads after Ando landed the first 4S. Women also weren’t scrambling to learn the 3A after Ito and Harding. Asada was going for three 3As in her prime and yet.... no other lady tried to emulate her.

Women are going for quads now because of Trusova, not Ando. Women are going for 3As now because of Kihira, not Ito. Both are under 18 and are finally getting women to try jumps more difficult than a 3Lz.

I’m heavily against raising age limits. For one, it’s the bright eyed youths that will advance the sport, not the old hats that are too comfortable with their positions, refusing to change. The old hats won’t do anything until their pushed by the bright-eyed youths. It’s also not an issue of maturity. Kihira’s SP is more mature than Bell’s for instance. Age and maturity are not the same thing.

If anything, ISU needs to look into this “I’m a Junior skater on weekdays, but a senior skater on weekends” baloney. Why are 18 year olds competing in senior competition and junior competitions, too? Y’all want to talk about age limits? Well, let’s talk about that!
 

rain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
I’m heavily against raising age limits. For one, it’s the bright eyed youths that will advance the sport, not the old hats that are too comfortable with their positions, refusing to change. The old hats won’t do anything until their pushed by the bright-eyed youths. It’s also not an issue of maturity. Kihira’s SP is more mature than Bell’s for instance. Age and maturity are not the same thing.

I guess that's the problem in a nutshell. I don't consider 16 or 17 to be over the hill. I still consider them to be bright-eyed youths.

I do like Kihira's short program, however, I find her performances of it lacking, and I don't mean on the technical side. Bell's short program definitely isn't my favourite, but just because it's pop music doesn't make it immature. Subjects don't have to be weighty or laden with angst to be "mature", and one type of music isn't necessarily more or less mature than another.
 

YuBluByMe

May Rika spin her hair into GOLD….in 2026.
Final Flight
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
Bell's short program definitely isn't my favourite, but just because it's pop music doesn't make it immature. Subjects don't have to be weighty or laden with angst to be "mature", and one type of music isn't necessarily more or less mature than another.

I completely agree. Just because someone’s skating to Beethoven doesn’t mean they’re mature. I’ve often said this in the past in regards to artistry. But for the record, it’s Bell performance of the SP (the choreography especially) that I find juvenile, not the music.
 

rain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
I completely agree. Just because someone’s skating to Beethoven doesn’t mean they’re mature. I’ve often said this in the past in regards to artistry. But for the record, it’s Bell performance of the SP (the choreography especially) that I find juvenile, not the music.

Fair enough. That program certainly isn't a hill I'm going to die on. I've said more than once this season that I don't think it especially works. On the other hand, I find Bell very mature in her Hallelujah LP, which has been one of my favourites of the season. On the whole I do find Bell to be one of the most mature performers in the field.
 

KOBOT37

Match Penalty
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
So far:

Ladies who landed Quad anywhere(including training):

Lil-Bet, Liza T (23 years old :)) ), Miki Ando, Anna Shcherbakova, Alexandra Trusova, Veronika Zhilina, Sofya Akatyeva, Rika Kihira, Alisa Liu, Kamila Valieva, Maiia Kromykh, Alena Kanysheva. (I hope I didn't forget anybody).

Number of skaters who broke down due to Quad-related injuries:0.
Number of skater who lost quad shortly after juniors: 1-Miki Ando, who,If I am not mistaken,never landed them in Seniors.
Number of skaters who learnt quad after Juniors: 3 (Rika and 2 Lizas).

I love how this thread quickly turned from safeguarding athletes health (in a sport which involves jumping on the ice with a thin blade attached to you feet :)) )
to 'Where is new Karolina Costner, get these Russian jumping robots outta here'

Have a nice time, Ladies and Gentlemen.

P.S Funnily enough, Zakarian is constantly complaining how ice shows aren't popular in the western world, considering how many 'mature skating fans' seem to be among western FS followers, it is really strange.
 

CaroLiza_fan

EZETTIE LATUASV IVAKMHA
Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Country
Northern-Ireland
Sorry to return to the off-topic discussion, but I had to respond to this.

Sure it does. It refers to an effigy of Guy Fawkes (executed in 1606 for trying to blow up the House of Lords during the religious wars of the time.)

Nowadays, it means a palsy-walsy buddy not to be taken seriously -- same as a "dude," "mate", "bro'," etc.

Good point about Guy Fawkes. But, the way the Gunpowder Plot is looked at nowadays is interesting. The anniversary is still marked every year over in England, but a lot of people seem to have forgotten what it is really about. To most people it is just the day that fireworks are set off (although the 5[SUP]th[/SUP] of November is called "Bonfire Night", bonfires seem to have gone out of fashion in recent years. Probably because people have finally started to listen to the warnings of how dangerous they are to wildlife).

Over here on the island of Ireland, Bonfire Night isn't marked at all. Leaving aside the obvious political reasons, I suppose a large part of the reason is because it is only a few days after Hallowe'en. Although Hallowe'en is seen in England as a new-fangled American thing that is threatening British traditions, it has always been celebrated in Ireland because it's roots actually lie in the Irish pagan festival of Samhain. So, we have our fireworks then. (And here in NI, we have our bonfires on 11[SUP]th[/SUP] July).

However, the paradox is that, because of what has been happening in politics in the UK over the past few years, Guy Fawkes has started to become a sort of hero figure in some quarters. There is so much bad feeling in the UK towards the politicians. And Mr. Fawkes is being held up as "the last person to enter Parliament with honest intentions".

We live in strange times.

By the way, I had never heard the phrase "palsy-walsy" before and had to look it up.

I am frankly astonished that there is any culture where the word "woman" carries a negative connotation.

NI is a strange place. The place that never looks forwards, but always looks back. There are atttudes that are entrenched here which went out with the dinosaurs in most of the rest of the world.

Hey, this is the place where the meanings of words get changed to mean the exact opposite of what they normally mean. Here is the most famous example:

It was always the case that if somebody was described as "transparent", then they were being described as sleeked, shifty, untrustworthy. You knew they were hiding something. "Oh, he is so transparent. You could see right through him". Then about 10 years ago during some enquiry, our politicians started using "transparent" to mean somebody who was being open and honest. Somebody that was trustworthy, and was not hiding anything.

It was totally surreal when this started happening. And the new meaning seems to have caught on, because people outside of NI are now talking of transparency as a good thing. But, this change of meaning is causing so much confusion! :drama:

But, getting back to the point we are discussing. It is curious that of the four scientific terms used for the males and females of the human species (men and women for adults; boys and girls for children), all of them are used here in ways that have negative connotations... except for "girls". The scientific term for female children is used in a way that has positive connotations. I have no idea how that came about, but it did.

As I say, this is a strange place.

CaroLiza_fan
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
... except for "girls". The scientific term for female children is used in a way that has positive connotations.

Do not call an African-American female "girl." In the days of slavery and long thereafter, black people were derogatorily and dismissively called "boys" and "girls, " meaning a person of insignificance and low regard.

Until they got really old -- then they were "Auntie" and "Uncle." We still have brand names like "Aunt Jamima pancake mix" and "Uncle Ben's rice" that recall the kindly old plantation servant/cook/house-Negro.
 

CaroLiza_fan

EZETTIE LATUASV IVAKMHA
Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Country
Northern-Ireland
Do not call an African-American female "girl." In the days of slavery and long thereafter, black people were derogatorily and dismissively called "boys" and "girls, " meaning a person of insignificance and low regard.

Until they got really old -- then they were "Auntie" and "Uncle." We still have brand names like "Aunt Jamima pancake mix" and "Uncle Ben's rice" that recall the kindly old plantation servant/cook/house-Negro.

Wow! Thank you for that tip. I would never have known that.

By the way, my Dad makes a really lovely stir fry, and it is usually Uncle Ben's rice that he uses in it. ;) :)

CaroLiza_fan
 

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
it will also help those at the junior level because the focus will be on building sustainable skills, not so focused on pounding their bodies into dust and starving them into delayed puberty for ephemeral results.
And what makes you believe that the focus will change? Akatieva and Berestovskaya jumps quads, Samodelkina jumps 3A long before their junior season even begin. Did you watch last RusJrNat? The competition on junior level in Russia is huge - all 18 skaters had 7 triples programs and to get to junior national team (and get state funding as well) they just don't have any other way to fight except trying ultra-hard elements. And that is with current age limits. Now what happens when age limits will be increased? Competition among them will increase even more - because many more strong skaters will be forced to remain in the same field for couple of years more. And what makes you call competition results "ephemeral"? They are not ephemeral but extremely important. Because skaters on the brink of transferring to seniors will desperately need to get high enough season's best to get GP events next season OR at least to get to JWC podium. And they will be forced to compete with younger and stronger juniors at JGP events and JrRusNat for that. And in many cases younger competitors just outscore them or push them out of top24 SB list - just like it happened with Khromykh pushing Tarakanova out of top24 list this season. And if you can't get GP events for your senior season - you may as well end your career in Russia. With the level of competition there it's impossible to have any successful career perspectives if you couldn't capitalize initial spring from juniors. There are lots of such examples as well - Gubanova, Sakhanovich, Guliakova etc.
Therefore the need for unhealthy diets to keep you in competitive form in the middle of puberty - to be able to compete with weightless 15-13 y.o. in junior field in the fight for SB scores and JWC spots - will only increase.

I make no apologies at all for wanting the sport to celebrate women and for the athletes to be able to have long careers. I'd hope that most people who see the athletes as real people, not just something to briefly entertain the fickle masses, would want the same.
And again - how exactly increasing the age - i.e. shortening the senior career from bottom - can help longevity in the sport? It won't make skaters want to end their careers later. On the contrary - number of skaters who couldn't make it to seniors (and thus - number of lost talents) will only increase. That, and with diminished time to deserve senior reputation, with less opportunities to participate in senior competitions before accumulated injuries and financial/personal issues will take their toll on particular skater - it will be harder to keep long careers as well. It could be changed if fs as the sport can be more profitable. But it's not the case now - and after 20y.o. many skaters decides to change their job to more profitable ones - to support their families, to get education, to fix their health etc. Delaying start of senior careers is not gonna change that - if anything it will make figure skating even less attractive for athletes and parents than it is now.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I don't think that raising the age limit will accomplish anything much one way or another.

But the ISU could, if they wanted to, go to work on changing the focus of the sport. As long as the main thing about figure skating is a skill that, generally speaking, 15-year-olds can do better than 17-year-olds, then that is the sport you will have. If the ISU revised the scoring system with emphasis on a broader skill set, then they wouldn't have to make any changes in age rules. The age of top skaters would just go up naturally.

Maybe. ;)
 

readernick

Medalist
Joined
Dec 5, 2015
I am rather internally split on this idea. Honestly, I am extremely bothered by the fact that a small group of young teenagers ( who are really still just kids) are subjected to the type of scrutiny, criticism and pressure that they receive. They are bullied by adults online and pressured internally by their parents, coaches, and competitors. Additionally, thry are putting their bodies through incredible stress and risking long term damage before their brains are fully formed and capable of rationally analyzing the situation Obviously, those in the senior ranks have even more pressure. So if raising the minimum age would help to encourage long term mental and physical health, I would support it. However, Juniors are now receiving almost the same pressure... so I don't think age limits would necessarily fix these issues. There needs to be a massage overhaul of the coaching system and fans need to learn basic empathy for there to be real change.

For concerns about artistry, I think that would be better addressed by having a separate panel to evaluate PCS scores. Honestly, the judges just don't have enough time to adequately assess both technical and artistic elements. Also, giving more weight to choreographic sequences and step sequences would lend itself to more "artistic" programs.
 

rain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
And what makes you believe that the focus will change? Akatieva and Berestovskaya jumps quads, Samodelkina jumps 3A long before their junior season even begin. Did you watch last RusJrNat? The competition on junior level in Russia is huge - all 18 skaters had 7 triples programs and to get to junior national team (and get state funding as well) they just don't have any other way to fight except trying ultra-hard elements. And that is with current age limits. Now what happens when age limits will be increased? Competition among them will increase even more - because many more strong skaters will be forced to remain in the same field for couple of years more. And what makes you call competition results "ephemeral"? They are not ephemeral but extremely important. Because skaters on the brink of transferring to seniors will desperately need to get high enough season's best to get GP events next season OR at least to get to JWC podium. And they will be forced to compete with younger and stronger juniors at JGP events and JrRusNat for that. And in many cases younger competitors just outscore them or push them out of top24 SB list - just like it happened with Khromykh pushing Tarakanova out of top24 list this season. And if you can't get GP events for your senior season - you may as well end your career in Russia. With the level of competition there it's impossible to have any successful career perspectives if you couldn't capitalize initial spring from juniors. There are lots of such examples as well - Gubanova, Sakhanovich, Guliakova etc.
Therefore the need for unhealthy diets to keep you in competitive form in the middle of puberty - to be able to compete with weightless 15-13 y.o. in junior field in the fight for SB scores and JWC spots - will only increase.


And again - how exactly increasing the age - i.e. shortening the senior career from bottom - can help longevity in the sport? It won't make skaters want to end their careers later. On the contrary - number of skaters who couldn't make it to seniors (and thus - number of lost talents) will only increase. That, and with diminished time to deserve senior reputation, with less opportunities to participate in senior competitions before accumulated injuries and financial/personal issues will take their toll on particular skater - it will be harder to keep long careers as well. It could be changed if fs as the sport can be more profitable. But it's not the case now - and after 20y.o. many skaters decides to change their job to more profitable ones - to support their families, to get education, to fix their health etc. Delaying start of senior careers is not gonna change that - if anything it will make figure skating even less attractive for athletes and parents than it is now.

I'll reiterate: raising the age for seniors will decrease the pounding in juniors because the goal is always seniors glory, not to peak as a junior. This will lead to a change in focus towards developing a more sustainable technique that will last the young women through, one hopes, to a long seniors career.

readernick
For concerns about artistry, I think that would be better addressed by having a separate panel to evaluate PCS scores. Honestly, the judges just don't have enough time to adequately assess both technical and artistic elements. Also, giving more weight to choreographic sequences and step sequences would lend itself to more "artistic" programs.

The terrible judging (or should I say misjudging) of components is certainly a problem and I agree that separating it entirely from technical judging would be a good start. I also think it needs to be made more valuable in the scheme of things.
 

Dr. Jenn

Medalist
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
I am rather internally split on this idea. Honestly, I am extremely bothered by the fact that a small group of young teenagers ( who are really still just kids) are subjected to the type of scrutiny, criticism and pressure that they receive. They are bullied by adults online and pressured internally by their parents, coaches, and competitors. Additionally, thry are putting their bodies through incredible stress and risking long term damage before their brains are fully formed and capable of rationally analyzing the situation Obviously, those in the senior ranks have even more pressure. So if raising the minimum age would help to encourage long term mental and physical health, I would support it. However, Juniors are now receiving almost the same pressure... so I don't think age limits would necessarily fix these issues. There needs to be a massage overhaul of the coaching system and fans need to learn basic empathy for there to be real change.

For concerns about artistry, I think that would be better addressed by having a separate panel to evaluate PCS scores. Honestly, the judges just don't have enough time to adequately assess both technical and artistic elements. Also, giving more weight to choreographic sequences and step sequences would lend itself to more "artistic" programs.

I agree 100%!

The question that I have is why there is an overlap of ages between junior and senior. Could someone please shine light on this? It would make more sense to me if the maximum age for juniors was one year younger than the minimum age for seniors (e.g., juniors are 13-17 and seniors are 18 and over - Note that these are just examples to illustrate the point).
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I agree 100%!

The question that I have is why there is an overlap of ages between junior and senior. Could someone please shine light on this? It would make more sense to me if the maximum age for juniors was one year younger than the minimum age for seniors (e.g., juniors are 13-17 and seniors are 18 and over - Note that these are just examples to illustrate the point).

I think that the assumption used to be that seniors are better than juniors. Just like in baseball, you have the minor leagues. Then, as the players get older, the best of them move up to the big leagues. Some players might be good enough to move up when they are 18, others maybe don't get to be that good until they are 22. So to have an overlap period where some 20-year-olds are in the majors and some are still honing their skills in the minors, that makes perfect sense.

What is unusual is a sport where the best players are 15 and it's all down hill after that. If the goal is to produce more Carolina Kostners and fewer Alexandra Trusovas, to me the answer is to redesign the sport and how it is scored. (People disagree, or course, as to whether this is a desirable goal or not.)
 
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moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 14, 2007
Country
United-States
I think that the assumption used to be that seniors are better than juniors. Just like in baseball, you have the minor leagues. Then, as the players get older, the best of them move up to the big leagues. Some players might be good enough to move up when they are 18, others maybe don't get to be that good until they are 22. So to have an overlap period where some 20-year-olds are in the majors and some are still honing their skills in the minors, that makes perfect sense.

What is unusual is a sport where the best players are 15 and it's all down hill after that. If the goal is to produce more Carolina Kostners and fewer Alexandra Trusovas, to me the answer is to redesign the sport and how it is scored. (People disagree, or course, as to whether this is a desirable goal or not.)

I think it is a desirable goal. I think getting the rate of eating disorders in figure skating down to the rate of eating disorders in the general population, or at least close to it, is a desirable goal. My ideas may not work. But I don’t think it’s acceptable to say there’s nothing to be done about eating disorders so we shouldn’t even try to fix the problem.
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
I think that the assumption used to be that seniors are better than juniors. Just like in baseball, you have the minor leagues. Then, as the players get older, the best of them move up to the big leagues. Some players might be good enough to move up when they are 18, others maybe don't get to be that good until they are 22. So to have an overlap period where some 20-year-olds are in the majors and some are still honing their skills in the minors, that makes perfect sense.

What is unusual is a sport where the best players are 15 and it's all down hill after that. If the goal is to produce more Carolina Kostners and fewer Alexandra Trusovas, to me the answer is to redesign the sport and how it is scored. (People disagree, or course, as to whether this is a desirable goal or not.)

I recall Dick Button saying, let the younger skaters compete but score them correctly in artistry (this was under 6.0). Now that PCS is based more on transitions than on artistry, and is finite unlike TES, there is no longer any way to stop the young jumpers from winning everything. I do think the age should be raised, probably to 16. But if that were the rule for 2022, we would still see the 3A plus Alysa Liu.
 

JSM

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 11, 2011
16 is reasonable (for all sports, not just FS). 17 seems too high and restrictive.

What I would like to see is the suggestions that quads are banned in junior competition. This ensures that we see the hardest elements at the highest level. Will that stop young kids from training them? Of course not. But in my experience as a (not elite) skater since the 80s, training a jump to land it is different than training a jump to be consistent. Training a jump to be consistent in a program is several levels beyond anything else, and takes an extreme amount of repetition. Limiting this to seniors might save wear and tear on young bodies. Just a theory.

Eating disorders might sadly be a part of this sport at any level, so we need to focus as a community on proper health and nutrition to optimize performance, and not restrict food and water. Hearing about Zagitova’s lack of WATER intake at the Olympics was heartbreaking, and had nothing to do with quads.
 

LiamForeman

William/Uilyam
Medalist
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
I think it is a desirable goal. I think getting the rate of eating disorders in figure skating down to the rate of eating disorders in the general population, or at least close to it, is a desirable goal. My ideas may not work. But I don’t think it’s acceptable to say there’s nothing to be done about eating disorders so we shouldn’t even try to fix the problem.

You act as if eating disorders are because of young age limits, and I have no idea where you are coming up with your ideas. If anything, girls are more likely going to starve themselves to hold onto their bodies as they reach 17. Eating disorders don't have an age limit.
 
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