Raising minimum age for seniors from 15 to 17? | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Raising minimum age for seniors from 15 to 17?

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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This is not about specific skaters, for me.

I couldn’t pick most of Eteri’s skaters out of a lineup. Let them win everything, let them win nothing.

Let them do it as seniors at 16. For all the health reasons I have talked about earlier and win not bore people with again:biggrin:
 

lariko

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Jan 31, 2019
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Canada
You act as if eating disorders are because of young age limits, and I have no idea where you are coming up with your ideas. If anything, girls are more likely going to starve themselves to hold onto their bodies as they reach 17. Eating disorders don't have an age limit.

If the goal is to avoid starvation diets, the age limit needs to go down. Just average women at 18+ can’t eat much, and they don’t have to maintain single digit BF%

In fact, why not to do a cut off at 21. 14 to 21, and 21+

And ban the quads in the 21+ category. It is way harder to heal after trauma as an adult, and who needs to see fully grown six foot tall adults torturing themselves into jumps. No more harassed teens doing double duty in juniors and seniors.

In fact, why just not leave PCS, and ban TES after 21+. They had jumped enough...

And select skaters to go into the 21+ by the referendum, five per nation, where the home fans vote at 75% penalty.

The careers will last forever, artistry will thrive, might be a few strange accidents in Russia, and we’ll get three sunrises per day.
 

KatGrace1925

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Apr 4, 2016
Unpaid? Really ?

Serfdom has been abolished in Russia since 1861.



Midori Ito, Mirai Nagasu, Tonya Harding, Mao Asada and Liza Tukhtamisheva doesn't seem to be crippled from 3 Axel, is that addition 1/2 turn that cripples people?!



ok then.

p.s you still didn't answer how would raising age to 17(or even 37) make Veronika Zhilina or Sofya Akatyeva rethink jumping quads at the age of 10-12.

The more turns you add in the air the more force you're coming down with. I heard a stat that every turn in the air adds like 10x your body weight in force when landing. We don't actually know how bad the effects could be on young girls bodies long term. It could be much ado about nothing, it could be dangerous. I am more concerned younger girls are going to go for quints. That seems more dangerous to me than quads, these turns really do add a log of strain on hips, legs and backs. I do think the risk of injury is higher than with triples but we don't know how high.
 

Edwin

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Jan 5, 2019
The more turns you add in the air the more force you're coming down with. I heard a stat that every turn in the air adds like 10x your body weight in force when landing. We don't actually know how bad the effects could be on young girls bodies long term. It could be much ado about nothing, it could be dangerous. I am more concerned younger girls are going to go for quints. That seems more dangerous to me than quads, these turns really do add a log of strain on hips, legs and backs. I do think the risk of injury is higher than with triples but we don't know how high.

Indeed, we don't know anything. No statistics, no valid medical data. No skater has ever had a leg come off in competition ;-)

Besides, how many of those beautiful, adult, feminine and mature skaters like Hendrix, Lindfors, who are always injured doing their doubles and small triple combinations? Lack of basic conditioning, core strength??

I repeat myself: all this 'concern' is only because Russia (and one particular program from that federation alone) is pushing the envelope and winning, with state of the art, top quality skating that leaves nothing to be desired in technique and artistry ...
 

flanker

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I still don't understand the twist in that thinking: "raise the age eligibility for seniors because quads are dangerous." What the... logic.

If quads are truly so dangerous above admissible danger (because there is always some danger even in one turn jumps as well as in so popular and "artistic" spins) and, fo course, if it can be proven, than quads should be banned, not young girls in senior competitions. Because, of course, if quads, despite their alleged dangerousness, would not be banned, they would be still jumped in junior competitions by those skaters.

The concern is of course not the health of the skaters but attempt to eliminate particular skaters from competing in seniors. And that's not what I'm willing to fight for.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I repeat myself: all this 'concern' is only because Russia (and one particular program from that federation alone) is pushing the envelope and winning...

I really do not see any evidence foir this claim. It sounds like paranoia to me. Help, help, everyone is against us!

(Of course, sometimes everyone really IS against us. ;) )
 

KatGrace1925

Medalist
Joined
Apr 4, 2016
Indeed, we don't know nothing. No statistics, no valid medical data. No skater has ever had a leg come off in competition ;-)

Besides, how many of those beautiful, adult, feminine and mature skaters like Hendrix, Lindfors who are always injured doing their doubles and small triple combinations? Basic conditioning, core strength??

I repeat myself: all this 'concern' is only because Russia (and one particular program from that federation alone) is pushing the envelope and winning, with state of the art, top quality skating that leaves nothing to be desired in technique and artistry ...

No there have been concerns about quads for years in the men's disciplines and the effects of training them young. I remember people decrying how dangerous it was when Nathan Chen messed up his hip at the exhibition at 2016 nationals. This isn't by any means a new discussion, it's new in Ladies figure skating because quads are new in the Ladies discipline.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
The more turns you add in the air the more force you're coming down with. I heard a stat that every turn in the air adds like 10x your body weight in force when landing...

I don't think it is the number of turns in the air that is the determining factor. The main thing is the height -- and of course, you have to jump higher to stay in the air longer.

I am pretty sure, though, that the main culprit is the number of repetitions that a skater does in practice evey day. I believe that it is the constant pounding away at bones, joints, ligaments, etc. (that are not fully developed) that threatens long-term adverse chronic conditions.

Anyway, I don't think that age requirements will discourage children fro running as fast as they can, jumping as high as they can, and so on. But changes in the sport itself could be beneficial to the athletes overall, plus as a bonus, make for a more satisfying experience for the spectators.
 

lariko

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Jan 31, 2019
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Canada
If quads are dangerous, then ban quads. For every age bracket.

But you can’t really close your eyes to teen athletes having advantages in this sport, simply because they are teens. I mean how many of you in your late twenties felt like bursting out hill sprints spontaneously, not because you had to lose weight? If any of you are females, and you did not cut calories from sixteen onward and without much result, well, lucky you and I hate you.

By pushing them compete later and longer, even without quads, the risk incrementally increases, and if they want to do something other than be absorbed into skating world, it is harder on them the longer they compete, if their earnings are not elite level.

So many sports are college sports, why is it so bad that figure skating could be that way? It’s good for the teens to be in athletics, they would travel, etc. If they have aptitude and talent, they will stay longer. If other things come calling, they won’t. That obsession with seeing them for longer than five years is odd. Or wanting them twist into a pretzel at thirty...
 

Tolstoj

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Nov 21, 2015
I'd be okay with it for two reasons: health and popularity.

- Health.

ISU should really investigate more on what are the effects of pushing a person over the limits at a tender age like 11 to 16 with a pre-puberty body. Yes those jumps are wonderful but nobody cares about that person once he/she retires and will have to deal with long term injuries.

Post puberty technique is what it stays with the athlete for potentially over 10 years, pre puberty technique can last 3-4 years max without adjustments, unless the skater stops growing.

By raising the minimum age to 17, coaches are forced to adjust the technique of a skater during puberty, dealing with that during the junior days, with the current system you can try winning as much as you can pre-puberty and then retire as soon as the body can't deal with all of that anymore.

- Popularity.

With the current system especially in ladies, champions come and go.

Figure Skating needs the icons, those long lasting champions that can revolutionize the sport in so many ways and most importantly attract sponsors every year: Evgeny Plushenko, Yuzuru Hanyu, Virtue/Moir,... these are names even the more casual fans can recognize and that's for a reason.
 

lariko

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Jan 31, 2019
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Canada
I took my mother to Kelowna this year. Last time she had seen figureskating was in the eighties. She had zero problems whatsoever remembering Trusova and she had cried this weekend when she saw Valieva.

She also adores Hanyu after Kelowna.

It’s amazeballs what a casual fan can recall and how fast they can be impressed. There is absolutely no rhyme or reason to whom she likes and dislikes in every competition... in fact it turns in quite a phone guessing game for me, sort of like Clue.

And if longevity/icons were what attracts the most fans, pair skating would have been the most popular discipline. They are older, and they stay on for longer. And it is so hard to find another person who likes pairs.

Speaking as a casual fan, for me the variety is a spice of life. I had no idea whom I am gonna like this season, in juniors or seniors. And that same thing is going to happen next season.

So, please, I beg you, don’t you worry about us, the casuals. We are just like any other casual in any other field, we can take a look and judge for ourselves whom we like, and we don’t need it to be the same guy as the last time we’d tuned in.

In fact, I don’t think I like the idea of an icon all that much at all. I prefer juniors where there is an opportunity for quite a few of them to medal, even the newcomers, and surprises, pleasant or not. Because, apparently, I tend to get attached to not icons.

I watched Plushenko’s recording, and his dancing steps were cool, but he means nothing to me. He means a lot to those who were watching him win and come back in 2014 etc. The icons are for the old guard crowd imo.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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whole post.

I'm so glad you had a good time with your mother:agree:

My only quibble would be generalizing your experience to everyone else's. Many of us have had completely opposite experiences with our own friends and family who loved different kinds of skaters. Who can't understand why Jason isn't winning every medal on the planet.:biggrin: And also, not to be contentious, if you are posting on this Board and you are going to Worlds and have been to SC, you are probably not a "casual" fan. You may have started out as one, but you're hooked now. :)

If any of us knew exactly what the "casual fan" wanted, we'd be very happy people, because we'd have a lot more of them.
 

SkateSkates

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Feb 17, 2010
You know what else would allow ladies skaters to stick around longer and become icons? Provide more opportunities for the best skaters to compete, regardless of country. When there are only 3 spots but 6 ladies capable of placing in the top 10, something should be done. And I’m not just talking about Russia - don’t we want to see Kaori at worlds? Didn’t Mai Mihara deserve a spot last season? And I’m sure the spectators would be happy to watch an additional flight with (for example, based on who isn’t going to worlds this season) Kaori, Alina, Zhenya, Liza, Eunsoo, etc. But this costs too much for the ISU apparently, so it will never happen.
 

lariko

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I'm so glad you had a good time with your mother:agree:

My only quibble would be generalizing your experience to everyone else's. Many of us have had completely opposite experiences with our own friends and family who loved different kinds of skaters. Who can't understand why Jason isn't winning every medal on the planet.:biggrin: And also, not to be contentious, if you are posting on this Board and you are going to Worlds and have been to SC, you are probably not a "casual" fan. You may have started out as one, but you're hooked now. :)

If any of us knew exactly what the "casual fan" wanted, we'd be very happy people, because we'd have a lot more of them.

That’s the point I am making, except I am making it from the standpoint of a casual fan, two casual fans. I am tired of people worrying on my behalf and trying to impress on me that I need Carolina Costner to stay on.

Skate Canada was the first competition I had ever attended in RL. Save for one hockey game my boss gave me tickets for two decades ago.

My mom literally had not seen anything even on TV since Irina Rodnina’s times.

Your relatives had no troubles picking up Brown. Or whoever.

The point is, nobody needs to pick up a favourite and then, like Crocodile Dandy turn the TV on twenty years later and still see them on to like it. They can pick another fav. Reality Tv shows thrive on that ability of ours. We grow attached. We root. Very, very fast. It’s those who live in the good old times who want more of the same, not the casuals.

And, hells, yes, I am a casual fan. I don’t like spirals. I love big jumps, and I can’t lie.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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That’s the point I am making, except I am making it from the standpoint of a casual fan, two casual fans. I am tired of people worrying on my behalf and trying to impress on me that I need Carolina Costner to stay on.

And, hells, yes, I am a casual fan. I don’t like spirals. I love big jumps, and I can’t lie.

That makes you a fan with an opinion:thumbsup:

I hope that no one is trying to tell you that you need to like Carolina Kostner, so they are not worrying about your casual fan opinions in that regard. You are obviously very capable of expressing them.:yes:

I worry more about the casual fans I know who *do* prefer the Caro type skater to the Sasha type skater. These are casual fans I know, and they hold different opinions. So it would be perfectly valid for me to worry about them. All of us can only go with what we know :shrug:
 

lpt

On the Ice
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Dec 23, 2019
You know what else would allow ladies skaters to stick around longer and become icons? Provide more opportunities for the best skaters to compete, regardless of country. When there are only 3 spots but 6 ladies capable of placing in the top 10, something should be done. And I’m not just talking about Russia - don’t we want to see Kaori at worlds? Didn’t Mai Mihara deserve a spot last season? And I’m sure the spectators would be happy to watch an additional flight with (for example, based on who isn’t going to worlds this season) Kaori, Alina, Zhenya, Liza, Eunsoo, etc. But this costs too much for the ISU apparently, so it will never happen.
They'd rather ban Russian ladies from competitions than give them more spots.
 

lariko

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Canada
That makes you a fan with an opinion:thumbsup:

I hope that no one is trying to tell you that you need to like Carolina Kostner, so they are not worrying about your casual fan opinions in that regard. You are obviously very capable of expressing them.:yes:

I worry more about the casual fans I know who *do* prefer the Caro type skater to the Sasha type skater. These are casual fans I know, and they hold different opinions. So it would be perfectly valid for me to worry about them. All of us can only go with what we know :shrug:

And that’s what I am telling you and that other poster.

Stop posting in the name of the ‘casual fans’. We all have our own voice. We do not need reps. We can all say what is important for us to say.

I suggest for anyone to express one opinion, their own, the one that starts with “I think”, “I like”, “I prefer”. For example, just say something like, “I believe that raising senior age bracket minimum to 17, will help Brown win medals in more events.” Or whatever point you are making.

Stop talking on my behalf.

I was told enough times on this forums by supposition that as someone new/casual, I am apparently too stupid to get the new scoring system; that I need the same people medaling for years in a row for me to get interested, because I can’t keep up with names and faces; and that I will never stick around if skaters who can’t jump don’t win.

Or this one on how 15 vs 17 is going to make all the difference.

All of it is patently untrue.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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@Lariko, No one on this forum said you were stupid. I remember you said that you felt that people were saying that, and we discussed it ourselves, and it was clarified that no one had said that, I am sorry that even after that discussion you still feel that way.

When I talk about “casual fans”, I am not talking on your behalf. I am talking on behalf of the casual fans that I know. So I can’t stop talking about casual fans, because I am talking about the ones that I know.

Please be assured that I do not intend to talk for you, anymore than you yourself intend to talk for every casual fan. We only talk about what we know. :)
 

brakes

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 31, 2020
I'm against messing with age limit at all, but I think, at 16yo limit things may work out somehow; Eteri will adjust taking step back, other countries and coaches step forward, more and more highly advanced technically and physically ladies are going to survive at senior level, etc.. Maybe.

If they go revolutionary with 17, it will ridicule the sport: junior competitions are going to be considered unofficial top level tournaments and Junior World Champion - an unofficial World Champion.
Fans' and media focus are going to switch at least to some degree from seniors to juniors. Journalists and commentators won't say it loud, but they won't be able to fool the public completely, when juniors keep outscoring seniors by 20-30 points on average. No magic judging is going to level the performance gap between mass of 14-16yo girls bred for quads and triple axels and 17+ women with standard content.
If the sponsors notice all of that, it will be end of the "reform". No sporting association is going to allow juniors getting paid better than seniors, because it would make pursuing a career in figure skating nonsensical.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
They'd rather ban Russian ladies from competitions than give them more spots.

I am not sure who you mean by "they," but I think it is quite divorced from reality to think that anyone would rather ban Russian ladies from competitions than give them more spots. Unless that was a joke?

There is, in fact, quite a lot of discussion about expanded formats for Worlds, etc., looking to the future. Whether anything comes of it or not, we will have to wait and see.

As for raising the minimum age for seniors to 18, if that happened the greatest immediate beneficiaries would be skaters like Medvedeva ( :rock: ) and Tuktamysheva ( :rock: :rock: ).
 
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