Raising minimum age for seniors from 15 to 17? | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Raising minimum age for seniors from 15 to 17?

Arbitrary

Medalist
Joined
Sep 5, 2018
I am not sure who you mean by "they," but I think it is quite divorced from reality to think that anyone would rather ban Russian ladies from competitions than give them more spots. Unless that was a joke?

There is, in fact, quite a lot of discussion about expanded formats for Worlds, etc., looking to the future. Whether anything comes of it or not, we will have to wait and see.

As for raising the minimum age for seniors to 18, if that happened the greatest immediate beneficiaries would be skaters like Medvedeva ( :rock: ) and Tuktamysheva ( :rock: :rock: ).

Nop. Tuktamisheva needs 22+ age limit. Medvedeva is OK with 20 for Olympics. Zagitova is too young...
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
@Lariko, No one on this forum said you were stupid. I remember you said that you felt that people were saying that, and we discussed it ourselves, and it was clarified that no one had said that, I am sorry that even after that discussion you still feel that way.

When I talk about “casual fans”, I am not talking on your behalf. I am talking on behalf of the casual fans that I know. So I can’t stop talking about casual fans, because I am talking about the ones that I know.

Please be assured that I do not intend to talk for you, anymore than you yourself intend to talk for every casual fan. We only talk about what we know. :)

And I am asking you or anyone else to stop talking on behalf of groups. It is not hard to speak only for oneself and creates far less misunderstandings.

As for clarifications, thank you for attempting yet again to tell me that I am unable to do something. I can read and I will judge the tone and content of messages independently. I do not need them explained to me.

I would also appreciate it, if you stopped cherry picking my messages from the discussions and responding to them. I dislike your tone and your opinions, so no productive or lighthearted discussion will ever result. Thank you in advance.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
If they go revolutionary with 17, it will ridicule the sport: junior competitions are going to be considered unofficial top level tournaments and Junior World Champion - an unofficial World Champion.
Fans' and media focus are going to switch at least to some degree from seniors to juniors...

This is already the case in the United States. The only "lady" who gets any notice is Alyssa Liu.

I think that we have to face up to the fact -- never mind labels, call them Junior, Senior, Unlimited, whatever -- that "ladies" figure skating has become a game for children. Maybe it always was, starting from when Sonja Henie competed in the Olympics at age 11 and became Olympic champion at 15.

I used to think it was just the jumps, and that the situation could be addressed by refining the scoring system. However, the young jumpers are not deficient in blade-to-ice skills or in presentation. Just yesterday someone started a thread here praising Kamila Valieva's +5 GOE spins. It is what it is.
 

lpt

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 23, 2019
I am not sure who you mean by "they," but I think it is quite divorced from reality to think that anyone would rather ban Russian ladies from competitions than give them more spots. Unless that was a joke?
What!? "They" (WADA, IOC, ISU etc.) are already in process of banning all Russian athletes from main competitions. It's all up to CAS now. Russian Ladies will need to ask for "neutral status" to compete, and who knows if they will be granted that status and if they will be invited to OG.
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
This is already the case in the United States. The only "lady" who gets any notice is Alyssa Liu.

I think that we have to face up to the fact -- never mind labels, call them Junior, Senior, Unlimited, whatever -- that "ladies" figure skating has become a game for children. Maybe it always was, starting from when Sonja Henie competed in the Olympics at age 11 and became Olympic champion at 15.

I used to think it was just the jumps, and that the situation could be addressed by refining the scoring system. However, the young jumpers are not deficient in blade-to-ice skills or in presentation. Just yesterday someone started a thread here praising Kamila Valieva's +5 GOE spins. It is what it is.

They are deficient in what used to be called the "it factor" or "X factor" when describing presentation or artistry. No one is going to cry at or be moved by a 13 year old's presentation. If younger is the direction of the sport, will we ever see something like Carolina Kostner's Ave Maria or or Michelle Kwan's Lyra Angelica or East of Eden or Mao's Rach 2 or, going back further, Janet Lynn's Afternoon of a Faun, among others (please fill in the blanks for the many I have not mentioned), again?
 

lpt

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 23, 2019
No one is going to cry at or be moved by a 13 year old's presentation.
Speak for yourself, please.

I took my mother to Kelowna this year. Last time she had seen figureskating was in the eighties. She had zero problems whatsoever remembering Trusova and she had cried this weekend when she saw Valieva.
Valieva is 13 y. o.
 

leafygreens

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
The real issue here is keeping damaged, young, growing bodies off the biggest stage - the Olympics - which sets a terrible image for the sport. If there were no further rules in place - just raising the ages - it would likely stop all desire to push tiny, growing skaters into damaging themselves, simply to win Junior Worlds. (Although I think they should take it a step further, and entirely ban certain elements from the Junior level.)

If skaters can't make it to the Olympics before they age-out of performing damaging elements, then the desire to learn them would stop, and the federation's focus would shift - from pushing damaging elements on young skaters, to extending the careers of skaters.

It's no different than the "Lipinski rule". Age levels have been raised historically when it's apparent that the health of skaters is at risk. Even Tara admitted that older skaters are better.

Skaters have to compete in the confines of the rules of those times.

"It's hard to say," Lipinski said. "I wish the judging system was the way it was now when I skated. But I still believe the best skater is going to come out of it."

And waiting a year might not be all bad, after all, she said.

"I've watched my videos from when I was 13 and 14 and by 15, I was so much stronger," Lipinski said.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
What!? "They" (WADA, IOC, ISU etc.) are already in process of banning all Russian athletes from main competitions.

Oh, sorry. Those people.

I actually think that the ISU and the ice skating establishment is somewhat of a passive bystander in all this. They go along with whatever anti-drugging regulations are in olace, but I don't thgink that it is the ISU that is spearheading a crackdown.
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
Yulia Lipnitskaya's Schindler's List at 15yo caused more genuine tears than global conflict.

15 is not 13. Michelle Kwan's Salome also moved many to tears or other emotional responses. And both of them are in fact exceptional.
 

KatGrace1925

Medalist
Joined
Apr 4, 2016
I don't think it is the number of turns in the air that is the determining factor. The main thing is the height -- and of course, you have to jump higher to stay in the air longer.

I am pretty sure, though, that the main culprit is the number of repetitions that a skater does in practice evey day. I believe that it is the constant pounding away at bones, joints, ligaments, etc. (that are not fully developed) that threatens long-term adverse chronic conditions.

Anyway, I don't think that age requirements will discourage children fro running as fast as they can, jumping as high as they can, and so on. But changes in the sport itself could be beneficial to the athletes overall, plus as a bonus, make for a more satisfying experience for the spectators.

See that's not how it works. It's not about height, the more turns in the air you are attempting the more power you need to generate to complete them and the speed of rotation in the air leads to an increase in force based on the increase in velocity and the increased amplitude. You need to move so much faster while in the air and that speed is a sort of power that isn't just reflected by height. It impacts the force in which the skater comes down cause the speed of rotation has to come to a dead stop out of speed when they do. It's really simple physics.

Think of the directional force, they're pushing their bodies to spin in a direction and they do ride out some of that when they hit the ice but they have to stop the direction in which they're forcing their bodies to turn at a high rate of speed with one leg. The acceleration into that and out with the change of direction can directly impact the hips I think even more than the legs. Certainly the legs would take a pounding over time, but the risk of damaging the hips based on the shifting force and impact of high rotational speed is high.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Tara Lipinski said:
And waiting a year might not be all bad, after all, she said.

"I've watched my videos from when I was 13 and 14 and by 15, I was so much stronger," Lipinski said.

There must be some sort of sardonic lesson to draw from this quote, but I don't know exactly what. By age 16, Tara was done.
 
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TallyT

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Country
Australia
No, exception doesn't prove the rule. Exception disprove the rule.

Strictly speaking (sorry, can't resist word stuff), the old saying really means neither, but that exceptions test the rule.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
No, exception doesn't prove the rule. Exception disprove the rule.

Nerd alert: ;)

This maxim is one of the most consistently misunderstood and misused folk sayings in the English language.

There are two theories about how the turn of phase originated and what it means.

(1) (I like this one the best). The word "prove" archaically and scientifically meant "test."

"The proof of the pudding in in the eating." In other words, if you claim that your pudding is well made, the only way to test that claim is to taste it and see. (An exception "challenges" the rule, but by itself neither confirms or refutes it.)

(2) (This seems to be favored by the majority of linguistic scholars.) The phrase originated from a legal argument used by Cicero: "Exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis." Meaning, the very existence of an exception proves (establishes) that there is a valid general rule that applies to the main body of (unexceptional) cases.
 
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el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
Nerd alert: ;)

....
(2) (This seems to be favored by the majority of linguistic scholars.) The phrase originated from a legal argument used by Cicero: "Exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis." Meaning, the very existence of an exception proves (establishes) that there is a valid general rule that applies to the main body of (unexceptional) cases.

Spousal unit says the Latin and the interpretation are :agree: Do you want to work his side of the fence?
 
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