Coronavirus and the new season | Page 27 | Golden Skate

Coronavirus and the new season

karne

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This is absolutely ridiculous.

CaroLiza_fan, in this instance, you are totally wrong. The Peggy Fleming Trophy was a "virtual" competition and no video game was involved. Virtual does not in any way, shape, or form, indicate a video game.

There was nothing at all misleading about On Ice Perspectives' use of the word "virtual".

You'll also notice that most racing series that went online using games referred to themselves as "e-series", in line with "e-sports". If the reference was to an "e-series" of figure skating then I would agree that video games were the accepted medium for that description. But virtual does not carry the same meaning.
 

CaroLiza_fan

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This is absolutely ridiculous.

I agree. This conversation should have been a couple of posts at most, and then the conversation should have got back on topic.

CaroLiza_fan, in this instance, you are totally wrong. The Peggy Fleming Trophy was a "virtual" competition and no video game was involved. Virtual does not in any way, shape, or form, indicate a video game.

There was nothing at all misleading about On Ice Perspectives' use of the word "virtual".

Have to admit that I hadn't read anything about the Peggy Fleming Trophy event. But, if the organisers of it were billing it as a virtual event, and it was actually a behind closed doors event, then they are being misleading as well. In times like this, you just cannot describe an event using a term where the meaning can be interpreted in different ways.

And since I am replying again (which I did not intend to), I think this would be an appropriate time to add in a story that shows how unscrupulous people can take advantage of loop holes.

I wasn't in the room when the story was on, so I don't know all the details. But, the organisers of a festival somewhere have avoided having to cancel it by integrating their wedding into it. And because weddings are allowed, it is able to go ahead.

If I can find a link using what little information I heard through the door, I'll edit it in.

You'll also notice that most racing series that went online using games referred to themselves as "e-series", in line with "e-sports". If the reference was to an "e-series" of figure skating then I would agree that video games were the accepted medium for that description. But virtual does not carry the same meaning.

The ones I watched didn't use "e-series". Formula 1 and MotoGP both used the "virtual grand prix" moniker for their computer games based races. And considering that they are the top level World Championships in their respective disciplines, I will have to say that it is your statement that "Virtual does not in any way, shape, or form, indicate a video game" that is wrong. Because there are clearly many people (including race organisers) that do think that it indicates this.

Now, can we get back to talking about the upcoming figure skating season? Because I have got as bored of this conversation as everybody else.

CaroLiza_fan
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
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Feb 27, 2012
No, I am not missing that point. In fact, that is my point. That the fact that he is using "virtual" in a different way to the way other people use it means that it is misleading to those other people. And that this event should have been described using a different term where there was not ambiguity over what it meant. ...

We are not talking about tours. We are talking about sport. And that is the way that the term "virtual" is normally used in sport.

But in discussions of *sport,* a common usage of "virtual" is to convey the same sense that Jordan did.
Including (but not limited to) the sport of figure skating.

IMO, for the majority of people in the figure skating community, Jordan's usage of "virtual" would create absolutely zero expectation of a computerized "gaming"-type simulation of the sport.
That's why I think it is highly unfair to say that his usage was misleading.

As soon as 2020 Peggy Fleming Trophy started billing itself as a "virtual competition", I believe that it was readily apparent to most fans that 2020 PFT would be a competition for actual skating -- not a computerized simulation of skating.
Independent media coverage of PFT also used the word "virtual" in the same sense that Jordan did.
Example: "Virtual figure skating competition offers glimpse of sport’s possible future."

Plus here on GS, I have seen posts from numerous members using the word "virtual" in discussions of possible options for future figure skating competition, both at the ISU level and otherwise. (In other words, not only in discussions of 2020 PFT.)

Examples from other sports:

Last month, USA Swimming announced that it will hold "virtual meets." Meaning meets with actual swimming -- not a computerized simulation of swimming.
"The new competition style, which marks the first time USA Swimming has held virtual meets on a national scale, allows swimmers to return to racing while reducing the risks of travel and large gatherings in venues. Athletes who compete in these virtual meets will swim in their local pools and submit their times to USA Swimming just as they would for a traditional meet."
https://www.usaswimming.org/news/2020/07/27/usa-swimming-introduces-virtual-competition-format

"Virtual" was used in articles about last month's Inspiration Games for track and field -- in which sprinters actually sprinted, etc. No computer simulations of sprinting.
"... the Inspiration Games, a virtual meet taking place in six countries across 10 time zones."
"Today is the 2020 Inspiration Games, a virtual meet held in place of the Weltklasse Zürich Diamond League. The meet will see competitors go head-to-head in real time, while actually competing across the world. ..."
"... Thursday’s Inspiration Games, an ambitious virtual competition that replaced the Diamond League stop in Zurich, Switzerland."
 

readernick

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Hate to be this person but one definition of virtual is “carried out, accessed, or stored by means of a computer, especially over a network I.E. "a virtual library" I think these skating events certainly fulfill this definition as they were submitted /accessed through the internet.
 

karne

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Have to admit that I hadn't read anything about the Peggy Fleming Trophy event. But, if the organisers of it were billing it as a virtual event, and it was actually a behind closed doors event, then they are being misleading as well. In times like this, you just cannot describe an event using a term where the meaning can be interpreted in different ways.

Peggy Fleming Trophy was NOT a "behind closed doors" event. Skaters at different rinks filmed their programs and submitted them for judging, which were then all compiled into a video for fans to watch like a real competition. Ergo, it was virtual.
 

CaroLiza_fan

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Peggy Fleming Trophy was NOT a "behind closed doors" event. Skaters at different rinks filmed their programs and submitted them for judging, which were then all compiled into a video for fans to watch like a real competition. Ergo, it was virtual.

Ah, right. Thank you for the clarification.

As I said, I didn't read the Peggy Fleming Trophy thread. And since this argument was about an event that was held behind closed doors, I assumed you brought that competition into the conversation because it was using the same format. So, sorry for that.

So, that is yet another format of event being described as "virtual". I think that just proves what I have been saying about there being too much ambiguity about the term.

How did it work out? Because before this argument blew up, I posted another comment yesterday in this thread explaining why that sort of competition wouldn't work. So, how did they get around the issues I brought up?

CaroLiza_fan
 

TeeSaurus

Rinkside
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Ah, right. Thank you for the clarification.

As I said, I didn't read the Peggy Fleming Trophy thread. And since this argument was about an event that was held behind closed doors, I assumed you brought that competition into the conversation because it was using the same format. So, sorry for that.

So, that is yet another format of event being described as "virtual". I think that just proves what I have been saying about there being too much ambiguity about the term.

How did it work out? Because before this argument blew up, I posted another comment yesterday in this thread explaining why that sort of competition wouldn't work. So, how did they get around the issues I brought up?

CaroLiza_fan

Your comment seemed to be mostly about what is fair and that a competition where everyone competes on home ice wouldn’t be fair.
But the thing is, what is fair is not entirely set in stone. Fairness is what most/all people that take part in a competition/sport agree is fair. I am assuming that those who took part in the PFT did so because they wanted to and agreed to the conditions that applied to this competition (i.e. being judged from a more or less shaky video recorded with a smartphone and competitors being able to execute several tries and submit the best one).

For me, the issue of fairness is as simple as that. One could also argue that skating competitions like they have been carried out so far are not completely fair either, because ice conditions can change during a competition, the first one after warmup has better ice than the last of a group, someone training at high altitude has an easier time skating in a competition taking part at their home rink, competitors skating in their home countries will feel better than those with jet lag etc.
But barely anyone would deem these things unfair, because such expectations would be unreasonable and if we thought about fairness like this, there couldn’t be any competitions at all.

So for me the question about "virtual" competitions is mainly: would skaters accept that each one competing at their home rink is fair? I think given the choice between no competition at all or this, many might agree its "fair enough".

I do however completely agree with you on the technical issues regarding camera equipment and operators and that such a competition format would be difficult to realise and might simply not be financially feasible.
 
Last edited:

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
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Lest anyone wonder, Jordan's exhibition at Lakewood Ice was in good compliance with the rink's safety rules, as far as I can tell.

Per Lakewood Ice safety rules:
- Masks are not required on ice. https://youtu.be/41DqxdoMvcU?t=98
- All sessions will be limited to no more than 25 participants. https://youtu.be/41DqxdoMvcU?t=72
ETA (on Aug 11):
The safety video was posted on YT on Jun 25, 2020.

ETA (on Sep 6):
Update re Lakewood: "In accordance with California state guidelines, effective Friday, August 21, all skaters (including players, coaches and other participants) are required to wear a face covering while on the ice at all Rinks facilities and Great Park Ice."
I would stress that The Rinks announced this new rule only on Aug 19, which was sixteen days after Jordan's exhibition.​


The ten skaters who performed in the exhibition all are from the LA Elite Ice training group. I would venture to guess that in the weeks since Lakewood Ice reopened, it has not been unusual for five of them to be on ice together for a full session -- far longer than a six-minute warm-up.

And ten skaters (plus Jordan) all on ice for the brief curtain call was nowhere near the 25-person maximum either.
(To state the obvious, the exhibition skaters took their bows for the audience watching via YouTube. As one of the many YouTube viewers, I appreciated that the show closed with the curtain call -- the same way that I appreciate the curtain call when I attend exhibitions in person.)

As I originally wrote in a previous post:
... Only five skaters were in each of the two warm-up groups. Social distancing was in effect except for a few seconds at the beginning and end of the warm-ups, when each group of five entered and exited the ice.
And except for a few seconds at the beginning and end of the curtain call, when the entire cast of ten entered and exited the ice. (If we're going to get super-picky: During the few seconds of the bows, the skaters were spaced apart, but perhaps some of the spacing could have been slightly greater.)

I would emphasize that during the few seconds of the bows, all of the skaters spaced themselves apart. Skaters 1 thru 7 easily spaced themselves well over six feet apart. The spacing between Skaters 7 and 8 and between Skaters 9 and 10 looked reasonably close to six feet. It was only Skaters 8 and 9 who were a few feet apart, but not six feet. Overall, I would say that the social distancing of the bows was pretty darn good. I am not alarmed that it was not quite 100.00% perfection.


... But the thing is, what is fair is not entirely set in stone. Fairness is what most/all people that take part in a competition/sport agree is fair. I am assuming that those who took part in the PFT did so because they wanted to and agreed to the conditions that applied to this competition (i.e. being judged from a more or less shaky video recorded with a smartphone and competitors being able to execute several tries and submit the best one). ...

:agree: Well said.

I as just a fan was comfortable with a virtual edition of PFT also because PFT always is a stand-alone event.
PFT is only for U.S. skaters, and even in normal years, it is not part of any qualification path for U.S. Nats and it is not one of the selection criteria for USFS assignments to ISU championships.

As of now, this year's GPs are supposed to lead in some yet-to-be-determined way to GPF.
And at least for Team USA skaters, GPF and GPs normally are among the selection criteria for USFS assignments to ISU championships.
So if the ISU were to hold virtual GPs, I as just a fan instinctively would prefer a higher bar for fairness than for PFT. But as you say, the important thing is what skaters accept as fair.
 

TallyT

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So if the ISU were to hold virtual GPs, I as just a fan instinctively would prefer a higher bar for fairness than for PFT. But as you say, the important thing is what skaters accept as fair.

The PFT was unofficial. For official competitions that impact on points, world standings, eligibility for Worlds etc and careers I would hope that the ISU themselves would want a considerably higher standard of 'fairness'. I doubt it, I I would hope it.
 

TallyT

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Tracy telling it like it is... and saying what a lot of people are probably thinking.

https://twitter.com/monbrielle/status/1291724460643540995

"For me, though, with all the restrictions, there is no way they will be able to run a fair qualification for the Grand Prix Final. You’ve got to reinvent yourself and make it something else - if you are able to have it at all."
 

karne

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Ah, right. Thank you for the clarification.

As I said, I didn't read the Peggy Fleming Trophy thread. And since this argument was about an event that was held behind closed doors, I assumed you brought that competition into the conversation because it was using the same format. So, sorry for that.

So, that is yet another format of event being described as "virtual". I think that just proves what I have been saying about there being too much ambiguity about the term.

How did it work out? Because before this argument blew up, I posted another comment yesterday in this thread explaining why that sort of competition wouldn't work. So, how did they get around the issues I brought up?

CaroLiza_fan

PFT is not an international competition, so of course there were issues. Skaters filmed multiple takes of their programs and submitted the best one. For a competition like this it was fine; obviously totally impractical for real competitions.

But it was still a virtual competition.

You were the person claiming that virtual only meant video games so I'm not sure why you're claiming ambiguity now.
 

CaroLiza_fan

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PFT is not an international competition, so of course there were issues. Skaters filmed multiple takes of their programs and submitted the best one. For a competition like this it was fine; obviously totally impractical for real competitions.

Oooh. It never even crossed my mind that skaters could record multiple takes in advance and then select one of them to use. I innocently assumed that the skating would be done live.

No, definitely not the way to go, then!

You were the person claiming that virtual only meant video games so I'm not sure why you're claiming ambiguity now.

Yes, I admit that at the start I was saying that virtual competitions meant video games, because that was all I knew virtual competitions to mean. And I accused the organisers of behind closed doors competitions that used this description of being misleading. But then ice coverage's posts, as well as your post, showed me that it could mean other things. And I realised that this was an issue of the term being ambiguous, more than being an issue of organisers being misleading.

Hence, I now strongly believe that use of the phrase should be completely avoided, so as to prevent people like me that don't know any better from accusing organisers of being misleading.

Lest anyone wonder, Jordan's exhibition at Lakewood Ice was in good compliance with the rink's safety rules, as far as I can tell.

Per Lakewood Ice safety rules:
- Masks are not required on ice. https://youtu.be/41DqxdoMvcU?t=98
- All sessions will be limited to no more than 25 participants. https://youtu.be/41DqxdoMvcU?t=72

25 participants???!!! I would have expected the number to be more like 4! (i.e. 2 skaters and 2 coaches, or 3 skaters and 1 coach). And I definitely wouldn't have thought it would be over 10.

That really shocked me.

Here in Northern Ireland, the rules are that indoor gatherings can be a maximum of 10 people, from a maximum of 4 households. (That only came in 2 weeks ago; for the month before that it was a maximum of 6 people for an indoor gathering). And given that the situation in America is much worse than it is in Northern Ireland, I naturally thought the restrictions would be much tighter.

So, you can understand now why I was shocked to find that this event had warm-up groups and a finale.

The ten skaters who performed in the exhibition all are from the LA Elite Ice training group. I would venture to guess that in the weeks since Lakewood Ice reopened, it has not been unusual for five of them to be on ice together for a full session -- far longer than a six-minute warm-up.

Oh, yes. Given that they were putting this event on, I would be surprised if they weren't spending time together on the ice in advance. Especially given the nature of this event. Let's face it, skaters aren't used to doing a routine with somebody in front of them holding a camera!

But, is there anything in the COVID-19 rules over there that would require some of the participants to be living together?

I would emphasize that during the few seconds of the bows, all of the skaters spaced themselves apart. Skaters 1 thru 7 easily spaced themselves well over six feet apart. The spacing between Skaters 7 and 8 and between Skaters 9 and 10 looked reasonably close to six feet. It was only Skaters 8 and 9 who were a few feet apart, but not six feet. Overall, I would say that the social distancing of the bows was pretty darn good. I am not alarmed that it was not quite 100.00% perfection.

Now that I realise that your restrictions are not as restrictive as our's, I can see that (apart from the spacing of the finale bows) the rules were complied with.

I am no longer taking issue with the show having multiple people on the ice at once, as I now know this is permitted within the local COVID-19 rules. The participants were only doing what they were allowed to do, so it would be unfair to hold it against them.

Instead, I am now alarmed at the rules themselves for not being more restrictive!

CaroLiza_fan
 

moonkat

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Just have everyone skate in their home rink in real time and put a bunch of camera for the judges.
 

MGstyle

Crawling around on the ice after chestnuts
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My OH is an IT specialist and putting together virtual competitions held in different locations simultaneously wouldn't be a huge obstacle technically. Setting up the venues in say, Russia, one of the EU nations, US, Canada & Japan should suffice I would say. Most of the athletes from smaller federation train in one of those locations anyway. For the hours it should go by the originally scheduled location. Adjusting the time (i.e. performing at 4am etc.) theoretically wouldn't make any difference, they do it anyway when physically travelling to other time zones.
 

Harriet

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The ISU has formally published the fixtures for the new season, with the rider that the COVID-19 situation means that events may be cancelled, postponed or added to the schedule with little warning. They claim the online calendar will be kept up to date. Since said online calendar is currently riddled with duplicate events, date ranges that make no sense, non-Challenger events with Challenger pages and more events that not linked to the entry pages for the currently-postponed Autumn Classic International, for changes they had plenty of time to plan for, I hate to think what kind of mess any short-notice updates will make of it.

In addition to this, due to the current COVID-19 situation in Germany, Nebelhorn Trophy will take place without an audience. The event will be livestreamed.
 

surimi

Onward and forward, Sota!
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Nov 12, 2013
I am glad they will be livestreaming Nebelhorn. I am desperate to watch a real, non-virtual skating event. Is Nebelhorn usually free or paywalled? I think it was free last year.
It sounds like the small events held in Japan did not cause an outbreak, so I'll keep my fingers crossed for the international Nebelhorn that it's equally lucky.
If the GPS does go ahead, I hope they can yet re-locate Skate America. I don't think Las Vegas will magically turn into a non-hotspot come late October, though with this virus, you never know...
Also, with just one entry per series for everyone (reasonable IMO), China and Japan will find it hard to fill the pairs and dance fields. Maybe they'll arrange it so that China hosts all pairs, and Japan all dancers?
 

CaroLiza_fan

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The ISU has formally published the fixtures for the new season, with the rider that the COVID-19 situation means that events may be cancelled, postponed or added to the schedule with little warning. They claim the online calendar will be kept up to date. Since said online calendar is currently riddled with duplicate events, date ranges that make no sense, non-Challenger events with Challenger pages and more events that not linked to the entry pages for the currently-postponed Autumn Classic International, for changes they had plenty of time to plan for, I hate to think what kind of mess any short-notice updates will make of it.

In addition to this, due to the current COVID-19 situation in Germany, Nebelhorn Trophy will take place without an audience. The event will be livestreamed.

Thank you so much for finding the calendar PDF, Harriet. :thank: :clap: :points: I realise the vast majority of events won't go ahead as originally planned, but it is still helpful to have a print-out of the planned calendar.

Also, I didn't realise until I looked at it that there is supposed to be a Universiade this season. I say "supposed to be", as I would expect it to be one of the first things that get the chop if a vaccine isn't widely available in the near future. Because, how on Earth can you hold a big multi-sports event if you are in the middle of a pandemic and there is no way yet of tackling it?!

Although it is not on the calendar PDF, I just had a thought and checked if there was due to be an EYOF this season. And there is: in Vuokatti, Finland, starting a week after the Universiade finishes. As another multi-sport event, I would expect it to be in line for the chop too. I can't remember if EYOF's are normally included in the PDF. But if it is, it's absence from this season's PDF could be a sign that the ISU doesn't expect it to go ahead.

CaroLiza_fan
 

CaroLiza_fan

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Just had another look at the calendar, and spotted something that I hadn't spotted the first time.

Who on Earth thought it would be a good idea to have Europeans and the Universiade held at exactly the same time???!!!

Like, these are 2 of biggest Senior level international events to be held in a season. And it is often the same skaters that get selected to compete in both. I know this is a strange season, but this is not a result of the season getting compressed - they were both always scheduled for the last week of January.

You could understand if it was Europeans and the EYOF being held at the same time, as that would be a Senior Major and a Junior Major. But 2 Senior Majors?!

It was complete madness for these two events to be scheduled for the exact same dates!

I just checked the dates for all editions of the two events since 1998 and, although it is not uncommon to have Europeans and the Universiade being held on consecutive weeks, the only previous times that they actually clashed were in 1999 and 2003.

After managing to schedule the two events for different weeks for so many years, it was very bad planning on the part of the ISU and FISU this time round. :disapp:

That said, I don't think it will matter in this case, as I cannot see a multi-sport event like the Universiade going ahead unless there are major developments on the vaccine front. (And I still have my doubts about the single-sport events as well).

CaroLiza_fan
 
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