Will Zagitova return?

starlight97 · Jun 5, 2020

AshWagsFan said:
How would you compare her to Trusova? I always felt like they were similar in the aspects of their skating (outside of the jumps, where Sasha has more and better quads). I feel that Tuk May have believed she was undermarked because Sasha was getting better scores than her on spins, steps, components, etc, even though she also had less transitions, didn’t have the strongest step sequences, and had weaker spins than some of the others.

(I know you didn't ask me, but still)
Compared to Sasha, Liza is a much better performer as far as living her music goes. With Sasha it's one of the most extreme cases of "My coach has given me this music to skate to and has told me at what moments I have to lift my arms, where to look and to make a surprised face at minute x". Perfromance wise she's totally disconnected.
But, as an Eteri girl, of course she has way better spins, steps, transitions etc than Liza. Jump content not to mention.

I feel like Liza and Mishin are painfully oblivious to the fact that tech is more than just jumps and components is more than just interpretation of the music

AshWagsFan · Jun 5, 2020

starlight97 said:
(I know you didn't ask me, but still)
Compared to Sasha, Liza is a much better performer as far as living her music goes. With Sasha it's one of the most extreme cases of "My coach has given me this music to skate to and has told me at what moments I have to lift my arms, where to look and to make a surprised face at minute x". Perfromance wise she's totally disconnected.
But, as an Eteri girl, of course she has way better spins, steps, transitions etc than Liza. Jump content not to mention.

I feel like Liza and Mishin are painfully oblivious to the fact that tech is more than just jumps and components is more than just interpretation of the music

That is ok! I wouldn’t say they are oblivious, but I think it’s a struggle for Liza to do more difficult spins and steps and transitions. She has had back injuries in the past, which is vital for better, faster spins. She also has lost some speed as she has gotten older. Of course these things can’t make up her lost points, but it’s unfortunate because I think she does try to improve them with different choreographers and hard work, but clearly more work has to be done.

I’m interested in seeing if Trusova’s components improve with Plushenko. He was a Mishin skater, and as Dick Button once said when asked whether or not Plushenko had a real program with good PCS, he said, “NO! He bamboozles you with his hands!”

Scott512 · Jun 5, 2020

macy said:
i can't speak for the other girls you named, but Liza scores the way she does for a reason. she has really nice jumps and some pizzazz, but the spins, speed, programs/choreography, transitions and flexibility are not there.

Really nice jumps are the most important thing especially the way points have been scored since 2014 Winter Olympics.. No one hits their triple axles and scores lower than Liza. If it was easy to fix the issues that you pointed out I'm sure it would have been done.

eterislouisvuitton · Jun 5, 2020

AshWagsFan said:
That is ok! I wouldn’t say they are oblivious, but I think it’s a struggle for Liza to do more difficult spins and steps and transitions. She has had back injuries in the past, which is vital for better, faster spins. She also has lost some speed as she has gotten older. Of course these things can’t make up her lost points, but it’s unfortunate because I think she does try to improve them with different choreographers and hard work, but clearly more work has to be done.

I’m interested in seeing if Trusova’s components improve with Plushenko. He was a Mishin skater, and as Dick Button once said when asked whether or not Plushenko had a real program with good PCS, he said, “NO! He bamboozles you with his hands!”

Well I know it's controversial so I'm not going to say it out loud but students of some coaches around the world tend to get higher marks than others for the same quality and difficulty elements performed.

flanker · Jun 6, 2020

eterislouisvuitton said:
Well I know it's controversial so I'm not going to say it out loud but students of some coaches around the world tend to get higher marks than others for the same quality and difficulty elements performed.

And where does this "coach-bonus" comes from?

Scott512 · Jun 7, 2020

flanker said:
And where does this "coach-bonus" comes from?

Your guess is as good as mine. Maybe it comes from EGs cheekbones. ,)

The secret to her girls success is hard work discipline and talent. And having the best coach for that discipline in the modern day history of figure skating. For her to coach and help create 7 great and different girls and ladies figure skaters in the last 7 years is unbelievable. That is from Yulia to kamila and everyone in between. Only time will tell if she can transform boys and men to great success as well.

lesnar001 · Jun 7, 2020

flanker said:
And where does this "coach-bonus" comes from?

I'm going to guess this "bonus" comes from their programs being designed to gain as many points possible.

I realize these programs may not appeal to some people's refined artistic sensibilities.
But that doesn't mean they are not worthy of any extra points they earn.

Personally, I'd love to see the system modified so that spiral sequences are valuable once again.
And less emphasis on Beillman positions seeming to be so important in spins.
How about some points for the "Classic Layback Position" - which seems to be a lost art.
Tanos and Rippons should ENHANCE the beauty of a jump, not just an arm tossed up that looks like a limp noodle.
And why did they change the scoring system in such a way that encourages skaters to forgo doing certain jumps they have problems with.
I remember a time (The Michelle Kwan Era) where doing the full set of jumps was more or less expected of elite skaters. At least that's how I remember it.

VenusHalley · Jun 7, 2020

I wish the PCS system was overhauled. Tired of ugly helicopter tanos and random leg kicks and blade grabs. Alina had this one movement in Cleopatra, where she lifted her leg... it looked like she was smelling/checking her knee... I have same feeling with blade grabs, it often looks more like the skater is checking the blade rather than beautiful move.
And do not even get me started to the random leg kicks. Unless you are doing a warrior choreo (like Kaori's Matrix) or something where leg kicking is part of the program... it just feels... random and does not add anything.

flanker · Jun 7, 2020

VenusHalley said:
I wish the PCS system was overhauled. Tired of ugly helicopter tanos and random leg kicks and blade grabs. Alina had this one movement in Cleopatra, where she lifted her leg... it looked like she was smelling/checking her knee... I have same feeling with blade grabs, it often looks more like the skater is checking the blade rather than beautiful move.
And do not even get me started to the random leg kicks. Unless you are doing a warrior choreo (like Kaori's Matrix) or something where leg kicking is part of the program... it just feels... random and does not add anything.

Yes, your comment felt random "VenusHalley-on-Alina" chatter and didn't add anything to the question whether Alina will return.

starlight97 · Jun 7, 2020

lesnar001 said:
Tanos and Rippons should ENHANCE the beauty of a jump, not just an arm tossed up that looks like a limp noodle.
.

How about Kostornaya's and Alina's rippons? They both have fully extended arms in them, Alena a bit more than Alina, and imo they do enhance the jump.

However, the tano style that Evgenia(?) made popular, you really hit it with that description

lesnar001 · Jun 7, 2020

VenusHalley said:
I wish the PCS system was overhauled. Tired of ugly helicopter tanos and random leg kicks and blade grabs. Alina had this one movement in Cleopatra, where she lifted her leg... it looked like she was smelling/checking her knee... I have same feeling with blade grabs, it often looks more like the skater is checking the blade rather than beautiful move.
And do not even get me started to the random leg kicks. Unless you are doing a warrior choreo (like Kaori's Matrix) or something where leg kicking is part of the program... it just feels... random and does not add anything.

I basically said the same thing without being nasty about a particular skater "smelling her knee".
You do realize that if they made those changes, Alina would be able to adapt to a different choreography and no more "knee smelling".

But then given your track record on making snide comments about Alina, I'm pretty sure you'd find something else to ridicule.

VenusHalley · Jun 7, 2020

Well if it is there just to grab points... it often feels distractive.

Does not matter who does it.

Mawwerg · Jun 7, 2020

VenusHalley said:
Well if it is there just to grab points... it often feels distractive.

Does not matter who does it.

Majority of jumps and spins in skaters programs are just for grabbing points.

SXTN · Jun 8, 2020

macy said:
i can't speak for the other girls you named, but Liza scores the way she does for a reason. she has really nice jumps and some pizzazz, but the spins, speed, programs/choreography, transitions and flexibility are not there.

The jumps are there, but the overall jump content is not there. 3A and 4T is not enough when the other girls max out their contents with quads and 3A's and backloaded 3-3's.

Scott512 · Jun 8, 2020

SXTN said:
The jumps are there, but the overall jump content is not there. 3A and 4T is not enough when the other girls max out their contents with quads and 3A's and backloaded 3-3's.

Liza is a world champion figure skater she does tough jumps she should not be losing to Eteris girls by 30 or 40 points. Losing to them is one thing but by 30 or 40 points is not fair and just not right

macy · Jun 8, 2020

AshWagsFan said:
How would you compare her to Trusova? I always felt like they were similar in the aspects of their skating (outside of the jumps, where Sasha has more and better quads). I feel that Tuk May have believed she was undermarked because Sasha was getting better scores than her on spins, steps, components, etc, even though she also had less transitions, didn’t have the strongest step sequences, and had weaker spins than some of the others.

i think Sasha has advantages over Liza- speed, better spins, bigger jumps. her artistry is also developing. no her spins aren't the best, but they are better than Liza's IMO. she also has command over the ice.

the thing with Liza is we see the same themes, choreography and types of programs year after year and it's gotten very stale.

starlight97 said:
(I know you didn't ask me, but still)
Compared to Sasha, Liza is a much better performer as far as living her music goes. With Sasha it's one of the most extreme cases of "My coach has given me this music to skate to and has told me at what moments I have to lift my arms, where to look and to make a surprised face at minute x". Perfromance wise she's totally disconnected.
But, as an Eteri girl, of course she has way better spins, steps, transitions etc than Liza. Jump content not to mention.

I feel like Liza and Mishin are painfully oblivious to the fact that tech is more than just jumps and components is more than just interpretation of the music

agree with this. above when i said Sasha is developing artistically, what i mean is that she has the desire to improve that area and is better in that area than she was a year or two ago. i know she said she wanted to skate to slow music this next season, one of the reasons i'm sure is to branch out to a different style of music to help her develop in that area.

when we compare this to Liza, i think she has good facial expressions and you can see her passion, but it doesn't extend farther than that.

flanker · Jun 8, 2020

Scott512 said:
Liza is a world champion figure skater she does tough jumps she should not be losing to Eteris girls by 30 or 40 points. Losing to them is one thing but by 30 or 40 points is not fair and just not right

Her SB from 2019/20 was 221 points, that's not so much behind, though she usually loses many points thanks to completely wrong layout. We've talked many times about it.

Scott512 · Jun 8, 2020

Isn't Liza's season's best of 221 30 to 40 points lower then Sasha's aliona's and Annas SBs were? As for the layouts that's part of the issue but you would think with her experience and her coach and choreography team they could do more for her.

flanker · Jun 8, 2020

Scott512 said:
Isn't Liza's season's best of 221 30 to 40 points lower then Sasha's aliona's and Annas SBs were? As for the layouts that's part of the issue but you would think with her experience and her coach and choreography team they could do more for her.

ALiona's SB is 247 points (which is the world record), Liza's SB is 221, so 26 points difference. Anna's is 240, so 19 points difference. It's big, but I think it corresponds to both layout and execution. With Liza's smarter layout the difference could be smaller but still about 10-15 points, though I admit she (and Sofia as well) was underscored a a little this season.

starlight97 · Jun 8, 2020

I neither see Liza getting unfairly low scores, neither do I see the three Eteri girls' scores as unfairly high, at least internationally. What happens at Russian Nationals is always a political circus, but that's the case for any big fed.

It's easy to say: "Liza and Alena did a clean 3A and Liza got less points for it, that's unfair"
It's completely reasonable when comparing the quality of the jump itself + the transitions in and out of it. Same example can be made for components "Why does she score lower in components than Sasha in some instances if her interpretation is clearly better, that's unfair" - because components is also transitions, steps etc

One instance where Liza was indeed screwed over was when TAT bend over backwards to politick Evgenia to worlds over her. But that was an innerpolitical issue, not international scoring.

Will Zagitova return?

starlight97

AshWagsFan

Edges for days.

Scott512

eterislouisvuitton

flanker

Scott512

lesnar001

VenusHalley

flanker

starlight97

lesnar001

VenusHalley

Mawwerg

SXTN

Scott512

macy

flanker

Scott512

flanker

starlight97

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