New ISU rules for the upcoming season | Page 3 | Golden Skate

New ISU rules for the upcoming season

C

cohen-esque

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 27, 2014
nussnacker said:
Guys, sincere question: can anyone please help pin point a communication where definition of ! is clearly written down. I don’t quite remember exactly, but I think when it was just introduced ! sign was for jumps with incorrect edge for a short amount of time or something like that, so it didn’t have a wording of a flat edge. But does it say ! means flat edge in some other communication that came later? Thanks for any information in advance!
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In the tech handbook (this one from last season: https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/sandp-handbooks-faq/17594-tp-handbook-singles-2018-19/file) it gives e as “definitely wrong” and ! as “unclear.”
Older versions gave e as severe edge or failure to ever establish an outside edge, while ! was either unclear or a less severe change, more like what you’re talking about: http://www.skatingaheadofthecurve.com/TechnicalPanelHandbookSinglesSkating.pdf.

I don’t know if it’s ever been clearly defined as “flat.” They also use “unclear” for the GOE penalty descriptions.
 
Colonel Green

Colonel Green

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2018
Country
Canada
frida80 said:
Yeah, this is ridiculous. The lutz is considered the hardest jump because you have to take off from your non-dominate edge. Flips are easier, which is they should have a lower base value. Only a handful of skater have proper lutz technique. The real problem was that everyone was ignoring flat/inside edges.
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Disagree here. Most skaters have a “natural” inclination one way or the other, and ranking the Lutz higher than the flip gives a (minor) advantage to natural Lutz jumpers. There are plenty of notable skaters with an inconsistent flip edge.
 
nussnacker

nussnacker

one and only
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 16, 2019
cohen-esque said:
In the tech handbook (this one from last season: https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/sandp-handbooks-faq/17594-tp-handbook-singles-2018-19/file) it gives e as “definitely wrong” and ! as “unclear.”
Older versions gave e as severe edge or failure to ever establish an outside edge, while ! was either unclear or a less severe change, more like what you’re talking about: http://www.skatingaheadofthecurve.com/TechnicalPanelHandbookSinglesSkating.pdf.

I don’t know if it’s ever been clearly defined as “flat.” They also use “unclear” for the GOE penalty descriptions.
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Thank you so much! :)
 
E

Elspeth

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 30, 2019
Colonel Green said:
Disagree here. Most skaters have a “natural” inclination one way or the other, and ranking the Lutz higher than the flip gives a (minor) advantage to natural Lutz jumpers. There are plenty of notable skaters with an inconsistent flip edge.
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Many skaters find the 3A more difficult than the 4T. Should we also make their BVs the same?
 
Seren

Seren

Wakabond Forever
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 21, 2014
None of these changes are that strange to me. You can argue the flip or lutz issue one way or another. Nor is it fair to compare an axel to a toe loop, they are completely different jumps. A flip and a lutz are much more similar and as a skater I can say that I know many higher level skaters than myself who find one easier than the other for no specific reason. I agree with making 4L, 4F and 4Z the same. Quad loops are extremely difficult- thats why you don't see them very often. To be honest though I could really care less about quads. I was hoping for more BV for steps and spins.
 
C

cell

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
Despite all the gloating, the inclusion of "full blade" still doesn't go further to refer to lutzes/flips and gives the same example of toe axel that was used before. I am wondering why they bothered to put in this language...
 
B

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Alegria said:
Lets wait and see if the judges will see it. I think they will not.
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Im pretty sure majority of judges already used to deduct for poor take off. The only difference now is that poor take off is defined more literal and deduction rised from possible -2 to possible -3. However that didn't change the fact that even with poor take off final GOE for the jump can still be +3 or even +4. Its a simple math those who complains never tried to understand.
 
Flying Feijoa

Flying Feijoa

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Country
New-Zealand
Regarding lutz and flip having the same value: While I can see the reasoning (to penalise flutz and lip errors to the same degree, given that different skaters find flip easier than lutz and vice versa), it doesn't give the skater any incentive to master both jumps. Skating is about controlling your edges - skaters who can demonstrate both correct flip and lutz should be recognised for their comprehensive technical ability.
As much as I am amazed by the lutzes of Kolyada and Tuktamysheva I would be even more impressed if they had perfect flips too. In the same vein skaters like Hanyu (who fixed his lip several years ago) and Chen (who IIRC generally doesn't have edge issues) should be recognised for their ability to jump both flip and lutz correctly.
As it is the only incentive that exists to learn both is the fact that flip and lutz don't count as the same jump for Zayaking purposes (or if you're say a natural lipping toe jumper whose edge jumps are even worse than your lip-flip).
 
E

Elspeth

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 30, 2019
Colonel Green said:
Not really equivalent situations; the Lutz and the flip are two sides of the same coin.
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In a way, so are Loop and Salchow, but they are not given the same treatment. There are actually a couple skaters who prefer 4Lo to 4S. Statistically a Lutz is harder than a Flip. Individually perhaps not. I'm also curious as to why they changed the value of the triples, but left singles and doubles as is...if they are the same jump anyway.
 
P

pete

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
"Changes of edge in between jump combo" is a good addition. Maybe we won't see those ridiculous high GOE for Kamilas combinations anymore.
 
macy

macy

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
cell said:
According to full-blade proponents she does, because part of her blade drops. I still have no idea why that matters given that she is not putting her entire blade on the ice.
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i would argue that for probably 90% of skaters, maybe more, everyone's blade drops on a toeloop takeoff. i have tried explaining this many times before throughout the forum as an ex competitive skater (many who just did not want to hear it), it is jump mechanics. in a toe loop, there is a transfer of weight that goes from one foot to the other foot with the pick, back to the first foot while keeping your center of gravity through the whole thing. this is even more extreme as you add revolutions.

there are a lot of people who just don't understand this no matter how many different ways i try to explain, simply because they have never stepped a foot on the ice nonetheless tried a single revolution jump.

this is why i don't agree with this rule at all because it is the nature of jumping while traveling across the ice, and why they need to be more specific with this if they really are going to start looking at this seriously. what they added is still very subjective in the first place and not clear.
 
C

cell

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
macy said:
i would argue that for probably 90% of skaters, maybe more, everyone's blade drops on a toeloop takeoff. i have tried explaining this many times before throughout the forum before as an ex competitive skater (many who just did not want to hear it), it is jump mechanics. in a toe loop, there is a transfer of weight that goes from one foot to the other foot with the pick, back to the first foot while keeping your center of gravity through the whole thing. this is even more extreme as you add revolutions.

this is why i don't agree with this rule at all because it is the nature of jumping while traveling across the ice, and why they need to be more specific with this if they really are going to start looking at this seriously. what they added is still very subjective in the first place and not clear.
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But even if the blade drops, it's still not on the ice, right? Do you think they are actually aiming to punish toe-assisted jumps where blade drops but not touches the ice or are they still referring to toe-axels ? (are they now including this language to appease a certain fanbase ? )

Also proponents of the full-blade thing would argue not everyone's blade drops to the same extent...
 
macy

macy

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
cell said:
But even if the blade drops, it's still not on the ice, right? Do you think they are actually aiming to punish toe-assisted jumps where blade drops but not touches the ice or are they still referring to toe-axels ? (are they now including this language to appease a certain fanbase ? )

Also proponents of the full-blade thing would argue not everyone's blade drops to the same extent...
Click to expand...

i agree with you on everything. this is why they need to make it clear as day what they want out of this rule and their expectations of skaters.

this rule was a very bad idea.
 
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