New ISU rules for the upcoming season | Page 4 | Golden Skate

New ISU rules for the upcoming season

Elspeth

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 30, 2019
i would argue that for probably 90% of skaters, maybe more, everyone's blade drops on a toeloop takeoff. i have tried explaining this many times before throughout the forum as an ex competitive skater (many who just did not want to hear it), it is jump mechanics. in a toe loop, there is a transfer of weight that goes from one foot to the other foot with the pick, back to the first foot while keeping your center of gravity through the whole thing. this is even more extreme as you add revolutions.

there are a lot of people who just don't understand this no matter how many different ways i try to explain, simply because they have never stepped a foot on the ice nonetheless tried a single revolution jump.

this is why i don't agree with this rule at all because it is the nature of jumping while traveling across the ice, and why they need to be more specific with this if they really are going to start looking at this seriously. what they added is still very subjective in the first place and not clear.

But that is partly the issue. 90% of skaters having this issue means that 10% of skaters do not. There should be a reward for a textbook execution.

I'm a gymnast. 99.9% of gymnasts can't ever jump a picture perfect double somersault without deductions, but the system allows for rewarding the 0.1% who can. Figure skating scoring in its current form doesn't reward exceptional technique. That is irritating. I agree with you though that the current changes are subjective and do very little in terms of fixing the problem I just described.
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
i agree with you on everything. this is why they need to make it clear as day what they want out of this rule and their expectations of skaters.

this rule was a very bad idea.

It's on the judges to decide when the take off is good for one positive GOE, not good but not bad eather - no positive nor negative GOE, poor for one or two negative GOE, or very poor for -2 or -3 negative GOEs. Individuals can 'see' the same things differently (its just hard to spot every single detail in ones performance), and the final GOE will be something between all those opinions. And i think thats fine - sometimes things dont appear as clear as they can be to be defined that clear - thats why we have more than one judge in the panel, and the final decision is sum of theirs personal opinions :)
 

Step Sequence4

JULLLIEEEEETTTT!
Final Flight
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
But that is partly the issue. 90% of skaters having this issue means that 10% of skaters do not. There should be a reward for a textbook execution.

I'm a gymnast. 99.9% of gymnasts can't ever jump a picture perfect double somersault without deductions, but the system allows for rewarding the 0.1% who can. Figure skating scoring in its current form doesn't reward exceptional technique. That is irritating. I agree with you though that the current changes are subjective and do very little in terms of fixing the problem I just described.

If it matters, I am a skater.

Isn't someone's blade dropping around an inch on a quad takeoff such a minuscule difference that it doesn't even really matter... many would even say that the blade dropping on the takeoff is proper technique (by this I don't mean full blade takeoffs). Same goes for pre-rotation, it is impossible to do jumps (especially sal and loop) without any.

We already have enough criteria to differentiate between skaters that we don't need to be arguing about these tiny differences on jump takeoffs, which are often proper technique, that you cannot even see in real time. Most of it is just jump mechanics:slink:
 

cell

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
It’s been a rough week for Eteri...

I don't see judges starting to go after Eteri skaters takeoffs TBH, which will no doubt lead to more complaining, since all the experts have decided that her skaters are the ones who have full-blade and pre-rotations under these new rules.
 

macy

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
If it matters, I am a skater.

Isn't someone's blade dropping around an inch on a quad takeoff such a minuscule difference that it doesn't even really matter... many would even say that the blade dropping on the takeoff is proper technique (by this I don't mean full blade takeoffs). Same goes for pre-rotation, it is impossible to do jumps (especially sal and loop) without any.

We already have enough criteria to differentiate between skaters that we don't need to be arguing about these tiny differences on jump takeoffs, which are often proper technique, that you cannot even see in real time. Most of it is just jump mechanics:slink:

yup. :clap:
 

ruga

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 20, 2017
I believe the BV change is positive (just the value of 3F and 3Lz could have been 5.6, the average of the previous values, that's how they did it with quads). The BV difference awarded lippers, who could afford to put just one 3F in the program and still get high BV. And now maybe more skaters will be encouraged to try 4Lo and we will finally see whether it was rare because it is difficult or because of lower value.

Now the interesting thing is cheated take off. Does that include full blade? Pre rotation? Or just the toe axel on toeloop? I hope ISU will make a seminar with examples.
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
I believe the BV change is positive (just the value of 3F and 3Lz could have been 5.6, the average of the previous values, that's how they did it with quads). The BV difference awarded lippers, who could afford to put just one 3F in the program and still get high BV. And now maybe more skaters will be encouraged to try 4Lo and we will finally see whether it was rare because it is difficult or because of lower value.

Now the interesting thing is cheated take off. Does that include full blade? Pre rotation? Or just the toe axel on toeloop? I hope ISU will make a seminar with examples.

The rules say:

"Poor/cheated take-off: For example a toe-assisted jump is taken off from the full blade, Toe Loop is executed like a Toe Axel or there is excessive rotation on the ice at the take-off. The reduction in GOE is -1 to -3."

I'm curious about the interpreatation of the "excessive rotation". So far 180° was a tolerance (and definitely not exclusively for Eteri's skaters, but for about 90 % of the starting field), so will this be preserved?

I really don't like the equalization of Lz and F, BTW. 3F-3T having just 0.7 point (edited, I've originally written 0.6 point) lower BV than 3Lz-3Lo? If you say so, ISU...
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
Maybe the scoring should take place a day later so that every jump and other technical element or every skater can be analyzed in slo-mo and the exact GOE can be awarded for each.
ETA: ;)
 

ruga

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 20, 2017
The rules say:

"Poor/cheated take-off: For example a toe-assisted jump is taken off from the full blade, Toe Loop is executed like a Toe Axel or there is excessive rotation on the ice at the take-off. The reduction in GOE is -1 to -3."

I'm curious about the interpreatation of the "excessive rotation". So far 180° was a tolerance (and definitely not exclusively for Eteri's skaters, but for about 90 % of the starting field), so will this be preserved?

I really don't like the equalization of Lz and F, BTW. 3F-3T having just 0.6 point lower BV than 3Lz-3Lo? If you say so, ISU...
Ok I probably need to learn to read properly. But I hope they'll make clarifications for 'excess', because 180°+ is pretty much standard for loop and sal, but there are quite a few skaters who do their lutzes and flips at less than 180°.
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
Maybe the scoring should take place a day later so that every jump and other technical element or every skater can be analyzed in slo-mo and the exact GOE can be awarded for each.

And tactics (and many ways of "influence") will take place even more. Impossible. There is a reason why there is a limited number of the "hawk-eye" calls in tennis or coaching challenges in ice hockey.
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
With the tutberetzi girls many excessively prerotate and have blade assist but these mechanics happen quickly so they cant notice in real time from the distance of the judging panel (can see on tv in real time).

However, whilst you cant see the prerotation you can clearly see the blade assist in real time on shoma uno's flip and dmitri alievs lutz

Confusing rules, and I dont think prerotation will come into play unless they come up with clear definitions for "excessive", and allow slow mo take offs for tech panel with reduced jump value.
 

NadezhdaNadya

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 22, 2017
Finally a rule about the excessive pre-rotation! :) (Full blade always appears on the ice when there is an excessively pre-rotated jump!)
Guys, Trusova and Shcherbakova always have excessively pre-rotated flips and lutzes. Always!
Just look how they twist and bend their bodies and rotate on the ice instead to rotate in the air. So this is the biggest problem and not the full blade. Some skaters like Yuzuru, Nathan, Boyang, Kolyada, Yuna Kim, Kostner and Paganini need just a little tap in order to start rotating their jumps in the air. On the other hand, Trusova, Shcherbakova and Uno have very poor flip and lutz technique.
To be honest, Alyona does not have perfect flip and lutz either. However, she pre-rotates much less than Trusova and Scherbakova. Plus, she is perfect in pretty much everything else.
As for Alina's and Plushenko's flip and lutz - they are not perfect, but again far better than Trusova's and Scherbakova's.
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Country
Australia
I haven't been so angry at a set of rule-changes in a long time. Further angry to come on my lunch break.

For now I'll just say, pathetic, ISU, pathetic, to listen to the screaming of a bunch of crybaby whiny fans.
 

cell

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
Finally a rule about the excessive pre-rotation! :) (Full blade always appears on the ice when there is an excessively pre-rotated jump!)
Guys, Trusova and Shcherbakova always have excessively pre-rotated flips and lutzes. Always!
Just look how they twist and bend their bodies and rotate on the ice instead to rotate in the air. So this is the biggest problem and not the full blade. Some skaters like Yuzuru, Nathan, Boyang, Kolyada, Yuna Kim, Kostner and Paganini need just a little tap in order to start rotating their jumps in the air. On the other hand, Trusova, Shcherbakova and Uno have very poor flip and lutz technique.
To be honest, Alyona does not have perfect flip and lutz either. However, she pre-rotates much less than Trusova and Scherbakova. Plus, she is perfect in pretty much everything else.
As for Alina's and Plushenko's flip and lutz - they are not perfect, but again far better than Trusova's and Scherbakova's.

Except they haven't stated what is excessive prerotation... sooo
 

NadezhdaNadya

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 22, 2017
Except they haven't stated what is excessive prerotation... sooo
Isn't Shcherbakova jumping her flip and lutz with 220-270 degrees pre-rotation? This is for sure excessive pre-rotation.
I guess 180 degrees is OK-ish, 90 degrees is very good and 45 degrees is ideal technique.
 

1111bm

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 31, 2016
Despite all the gloating, the inclusion of "full blade" still doesn't go further to refer to lutzes/flips and gives the same example of toe axel that was used before. I am wondering why they bothered to put in this language...

I don't understand your point? They didn't spell it out as in "Flip" or "Lutz" but they used the umbrella term "toe-assisted jump" which includes all three toe-assisted jumps.
The Toe Axel example is just one point in a list of 3 examples given ("For example A, B or C"):

>>> Poor/cheated take-off: For example a toe-assisted jump is taken off from the full blade, Toe Loop is executed like a Toe Axel or there is excessive rotation on the ice at the take-off. The reduction in GOE is -1 to -3 <<<


I'm also curious as to why they changed the value of the triples, but left singles and doubles as is...if they are the same jump anyway.

This.
 

Harriet

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Country
Australia
Isn't Shcherbakova jumping her flip and lutz with 220-270 degrees pre-rotation? This is for sure excessive pre-rotation.
I guess 180 degrees is OK-ish, 90 degrees is very good and 45 degrees is ideal technique.

The acceptable degree of prerotation varies depending on the jump, as I understand. Because of the mechanics of the movement, loops and salchows can have up to 180 degrees of prerotation and I believe that's considered acceptable or even normal. For axels and edge jumps the allowable amount is less.

I do wish they hadn't used the sloppy fandom term 'full-blade' though. 'Poor toepicking technique' would be more accurate. Especially as every skater I've ever seen talking on the subject has said that it's impossible to even take off if your whole blade on the picking leg is on the ice - you don't go up, you wipe out!

I do think it's very typical of us all to focus solely on the jumps for singles skaters here. Why is nobody happy over raised BV for death spirals? Why has only one person even mentioned that windmills no longer count as difficult entries for spins, but there's now a 'difficult exit' feature, and nobody pointed out that increase in speed now counts for difficult variations of an upright position?
 
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