New ISU rules for the upcoming season | Page 5 | Golden Skate

New ISU rules for the upcoming season

Supernovaimplosion

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
I'm confused about the spin entry/exit though. Can you use that feature to raise the level twice, if you do a difficult entry on one spin and difficult exit on another?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Finally a rule about the excessive pre-rotation! :) ...
Guys, Trusova and Shcherbakova always have excessively pre-rotated flips and lutzes....

Some skaters like Yuzuru, Nathan, Boyang, Kolyada, Yuna Kim, Kostner and Paganini need just a little tap in order to start rotating their jumps in the air.

Well, Yuzuru Hanyu, Boyang Jin, and Mikail Kolyada are men. Yuna Kim and Alexia Paginini do not jump quads.
It may not be possible for a lady to do a quadruple jump without some pre-rotation and a lot of work on the ice before liftoff.
 

Tolstoj

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
I hope judges will start to reward a little more Liza Tuktamysheva's proper technique on the lutz with these rules.
 

cell

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
I'm preparing for twitter stans to be further enraged when skaters who they think should be getting GOE deductions under these rules for full-blade and excessive rotation on the ice are not penalized. Really don't know why ISU bothered without providing clear cut definitions.
 

NadezhdaNadya

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 22, 2017
The acceptable degree of prerotation varies depending on the jump, as I understand. Because of the mechanics of the movement, loops and salchows can have up to 180 degrees of prerotation and I believe that's considered acceptable or even normal. For axels and edge jumps the allowable amount is less.
Yes, I have heard this many times. But where is it stated in the rule book? I think it was - more than 180 degrees pre-rotation - downgrade.
 

NadezhdaNadya

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 22, 2017
Well, Yuzuru Hanyu, Boyang Jin, and Mikail Kolyada are men. Yuna Kim and Alexia Paginini do not jump quads.
It may not be possible for a lady to do a quadruple jump without some pre-rotation and a lot of work on the ice before liftoff.

Trusova and Shcherbakova are jumping even triple flip and triple lutz with excessive pre-rotation. So the quads are not an excuse.
 

1111bm

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 31, 2016
The acceptable degree of prerotation varies depending on the jump, as I understand. Because of the mechanics of the movement, loops and salchows can have up to 180 degrees of prerotation and I believe that's considered acceptable or even normal. For axels and edge jumps the allowable amount is less.

You may wanna correct that. ;)

I do wish they hadn't used the sloppy fandom term 'full-blade' though. 'Poor toepicking technique' would be more accurate. Especially as every skater I've ever seen talking on the subject has said that it's impossible to even take off if your whole blade on the picking leg is on the ice - you don't go up, you wipe out!

I don't know about an actual full-blade take-off. But pushing off part of the blade, that isn't the toe-picks, is certainly possible, I've done that (although it's also worth mentioning, that even when jumping off an edge, the last thing to leave the ice is still the toe-pick).

Back when I was learning the Flip, I was still figuring out how to angle my foot the right way, to be able to pick in correctly. So I would often hit the ice with the first 1/3 of my blade, or sort of roll down on it from my toe-picks, and I was able to push myself off that part of the blade.
And I would always feel it, too, it was a very different sensation to a quick and clean tap with the toe-pick. It was just this weird cross between an edge and a toe-jump but it was neither, and didn't feel satisfying at all. It didn't affect the height of my jumps or anything else, though, felt pretty stable too.

Then again, I have wiped out on a toe-loop once, when I picked in the wrong way and slipped of the toe-pick and (I assume) wasn't lucky enough to catch part of an edge to get some grip in the ice.
 

ancientpeas

The Notorious SEW
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
Guys.. if I want to educate myself about the whole full blade assist thing and I'm more of a visual learner who should I watch to see what a non assisted jump looks like?
 

lzxnl

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
Guys.. if I want to educate myself about the whole full blade assist thing and I'm more of a visual learner who should I watch to see what a non assisted jump looks like?

Someone who mostly uses the toepick? Yuzuru Hanyu, Nathan Chen, Yuna Kim are good examples of minimal pre-rotation.

Someone who uses significantly more of the blade to the point where the takeoff becomes a loop? Anna Scherbakova (lutz), Shoma Uno (flip)
 

1111bm

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 31, 2016
Yes, I have heard this many times. But where is it stated in the rule book? I think it was - more than 180 degrees pre-rotation - downgrade.

I think it's what Harriet said, the jump mechanics.

With edge jumps, you don't leave the ice 'at once'. It happens gradually, it's a transition from pressing the edge into the ice and then, while you're pushing off and the blade starts taking off, you're rolling down on the front part of your blades. It's a kind of rocking forward motion, and the last thing that leaves the ice are the toe-picks.
While you're doing that, you're also starting to rotate your body and at the same time, you're travelling on a curve on the ice. You can see that curve on the ice, when inspecting take-off marks.
That's why up to 180° pre-rotation happens 'naturally' on Salchows and Loops, less so on Axels I think (possibly because there's less curving on the forward take-off?).

With toe jumps, you're also travelling on a curve of course, but on your skating leg, which isn't the take-off (picking) leg. Then you quickly tap into the ice with the toe pick and vault yourself up. You don't use the whole length of your blades, just that sharp tip of it. So there's just that small point of impact with the ice, and it's just a short moment.
So in theory that shouldn't even allow you enough time to pre-rotate on the ice too much. But of course, you can prolong the tap. Instead of making it quick,with a very short contact with the ice, you press into the ice for a slightly longer amount of time. Since you're already travelling along a curve and you're body is turning, your toe-pick (still stuck in the ice) will also rotate.

I personally always assumed a quick tapping technique is 'textbook' (that's debatable of course). Not because I read it somewhere, but simply because you wanna distinguish between edge and toe jumps, highlight the differences in their mechanics and show off the ability to execute those differences, right?
Because otherwise, why even bother having this many different types of jumps (who all have the same air position and landing, and their only distinguishing feature being the take-off) when they're just gonna blend together?
 

dhjh811

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 23, 2014
Well, Yuzuru Hanyu, Boyang Jin, and Mikail Kolyada are men. Yuna Kim and Alexia Paginini do not jump quads.
It may not be possible for a lady to do a quadruple jump without some pre-rotation and a lot of work on the ice before liftoff.

Trusova and Shcherbakova prerotate excessively even for their triples, so that is not an excuse. They haven't clearly defined exactly how many degrees of prerotation is required for it to be excessive, but I'd say Trusova, Shcherbakova, and Alysa Liu's toe assisted jumps are some of the most prerotated jumps in figure skating history. I'm sure those jumps would escape whatever range of degrees ISU considers to be okay, if they even actually put this rule into practice.
 

Pantsu

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 12, 2019
A very interesting interview from Lakernik
https://www.sport-express.ru/figure...ko-stoyat-pryzhki-v-figurnom-katanii-1671717/

A couple of quotes by google translate:
"Now the Japanese are working on a system that will allow you to calculate the degrees of rotation in the air."
"I saw in February their development. Pretty interesting. If this is introduced, then the question remains, where are the borders of the underrotations and how much will it cost."

And lots of other comments on the changes
 

Harriet

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Country
Australia
I think it was - more than 180 degrees pre-rotation - downgrade.

A downgrade (<<) notation is more usually applied for being 180 degress or more short on the landing, not on the takeoff. It has happened with takeoffs, I remember Donovan Carillo got a downgrade due to prerotation at Four Continents once, a few years ago, but it took about 270 degrees of prerotation or more on his part for the tech panel to make that call. It looks like this penalty is a way to address excessive prerotation without the tech panel having to decide whether to apply a downgrade call or not: the judges watch takeoffs and assess prerotation problems with GOE and the tech panel watches the landings to apply < and << calls.
 

Ella5555

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 14, 2018
Does the change in BV mean that we’ll start all over again with world records - with the last 2 seasons relegated to the historical records category?
 

frida80

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
Does the change in BV mean that we’ll start all over again with world records - with the last 2 seasons relegated to the historical records category?

Probably not. Yuna’s WR stayed even after the changed the BV and GoE changed. It was the +5/-5 that changed the records this time.
 

jersey1302

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 10, 2016
Country
Canada
so what ive gathered is that you can basically pick your fav quad and do it well and get a good goe and get the same score as someone else doing their good quad.. makes it closer I guess.. I find it humorous they expect judges to decifer 3 types of under rotations .. full on down grade, 1/4 to half, 1/4 exactly and less than 1/4 LOL they cant even get 1 UR right never mind deciding what kind it is.. I bet scoring will take longer because it will be so many longer reviews. I also must say looking at the PCS scoring table.. there are far too many skaters that get far too high marks.. so everyone skating is above average or superior in an ISU event... Fair is listed at a 4-4.75 and average is 5-5.75.. You mean to tell me Tarasova and Morozov's Olympic FS to that insanly god awful Candy Man program that everyone on this plantet cold see their disconnect and lack of any rhythm in that program gets an VERY GOOD TO EXCELLENT?!?! 8.75-9.50.. WHAT WERE THE JUDGES WATCHING?!?!?! I dont care how elite that team is.. if your performance sucks.. then make that reflect in the marks!! GEEZUZ !!!!! IF judges would be judging properly in the first place we wouldnt have to wait year after year to set new standards for scoring figure skating.. just saying..
 

mermaidfestavol3

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 20, 2017
3F = 3Lz is puzzling to me. Not because of any reason favoring flutzers or lippers but because 2Lz still > 2F and 1Lz still > 1F. What gives?
 
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