Next technical Achievement - Quad Axel | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Next technical Achievement - Quad Axel

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
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Jun 6, 2019

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvcpI0TNlGQ - shoma uno 3A+4T

Rafael said with Nathan in interview that he was having some success with a 4+4 on practice, however would only include it in competition if it was allowed in SP.

Once Hanyu opened out on a quad salchow on practice doing less than a quad, then did +eu+4S clean. Later he said in an interview he had done x+eu+4S in training and it had effected his solo 4S timing.

Bonus: Morisi Kvitelashvili did 2A+4T when he was younger.

Right now there is no point to quad quad. It's possible, and some people have trained it. Plushenko even once tried it when he was old, but could not succeed (half revolution off.) Same with Kostinian Menshov (though he did some attempts past 1/2 so just UR).

In SP a quad-quad is invalid. In LP no point as you can only do so many jumps anyways it just makes your life more difficult.
 

Skatesocs

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May 16, 2020
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvcpI0TNlGQ - shoma uno 3A+4T

Rafael said with Nathan in interview that he was having some success with a 4+4 on practice, however would only include it in competition if it was allowed in SP.

Once Hanyu opened out on a quad salchow on practice doing less than a quad, then did +eu+4S clean. Later he said in an interview he had done x+eu+4S in training and it had effected his solo 4S timing.

So Uno didn't do a rotated 3A+4T in competition as you claimed (and that toeloop is barely around if you account for where he left the ice). And there is no proof for Chen's 4-4: which would be a sight I don't want to behold with his ugly 4T air position, horrible landings and generally stiff body. And Hanyu hasn't in fact done 4S+4S, although yes I remember the 2S+4S.

I don't remember Plushenko's 4+4. He did do 3A+4T in practice that was half off.
 

kolyadafan2002

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So Uno didn't do a rotated 3A+4T in competition as you claimed (and that toeloop is barely around if you account for where he left the ice). And there is no proof for Chen's 4-4: which would be a sight I don't want to behold with his ugly 4T air position, horrible landings and generally stiff body. And Hanyu hasn't in fact done 4S+4S, although yes I remember the 2S+4S.

I don't remember Plushenko's 4+4. He did do 3A+4T in practice that was half off.

He did do it in competition, world team trophy. He fell but got called rotated. The 4T+4T was in private practice with video just before 2010 Olympics.
http://rinkresults.com/judges-scores?competition_id=2331&race_id=15
I'm not discussing prerotation, as toeloop usually has up to 1/2 prerotation.
Rafael Aruntinian may not be telling the truth, but why would he lie? He was saying that as a petition to ISU to allow quad quad in SP.
Wheres the motivation of hanyu to lie about the time he trained 4x+eu+4S.
 

Skatesocs

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I knew Uno had done it in competition. He's never landed a rotated +4T - and I doubt it'll be happening soon.

I'm not discussing prerotation, as toeloop usually has up to 1/2 prerotation.

That's nice. His is slightly more than that.

Rafael Arutyunyan and Hanyu might not be lying, but their words aren't proof of Chen/Hanyu landing those combos either. I'll believe it when I see it. No one stopped them from posting videos of their supposed attempts. Much like no one stopped Hanyu from posting videos of his 4A or his quint attempts - maybe those would have helped the case for a better SoV instead of crying about them on Twitter.

EDIT: I actually did find a video of Hanyu's 4S+4S. He fell, but at least he tried. It also contained videos of 4T/S+3T+3Lo, which I'm much more interested in seeing from the current skaters.
 

kolyadafan2002

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I knew Uno had done it in competition. He's never landed a rotated +4T - and I doubt it'll be happening soon.



That's nice. His is slightly more than that.

Rafael Arutyunyan and Hanyu might not be lying, but their words aren't proof of Chen/Hanyu landing those combos either. I'll believe it when I see it. No one stopped them from posting videos of their supposed attempts. Much like no one stopped Hanyu from posting videos of his 4A or his quint attempts - maybe those would have helped the case for a better SoV instead of crying about them on Twitter.

EDIT: I actually did find a video of Hanyu's 4S+4S. He fell, but at least he tried. It also contained videos of 4T/S+3T+3Lo, which I'm much more interested in seeing from the current skaters.

Problem again is doing +3T+3Lo makes no sense. If you want to repeat a quad and a 3A, you cant then repeat a 3T or 3Lo so your other combos must be doubles. They cant do +eu due to already doing 3 jump combo.

If they want to see +3x+3x then they need to make an euler a step over instead of a jump with no base value, so that+eu+salchow = 2 jump combo and +eu+flip.

In terms of 4 +3+3, 3 skaters have landed it, and 2 of those in international. Kevin Van der Perren did 4T+3T+3T, and Plushenko 4T+3T+3Lo.
Kevin reynolds landed 4S+3T+3Lo in nationals, but this was during his inconsistent years so never internationally materialised.

I'm not going to argue about prerotation here, because right now we are discussing the next advancements, and as Shoma will probably not be punished for his 4T at least, this is irrelevant.

When nathan hits 4T+3T perfectly he is straight in the air. However I've noticed he sometimes has a massive lean on the 3T but somehow makes it. I think this is because he finds it easy, he can still make it with mistakes.

Im pretty sure this will happen before a quint jump/quad axel.
 

Skatesocs

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^Chen leans in the air on +3T because his rhythm is poor. He swings it rather than jumping straight up. Note on his 3Lz+3T too.

Yes, they need to nix butt ugly Euler combos as three jumps, and incentivize +3Lo for that to happen. I want to see that happen, and 4+4 should happen only if they plan to penalize the pre rotated ones we will inevitably get.
 

kolyadafan2002

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^Chen leans in the air on +3T because his rhythm is poor. He swings it rather than jumping straight up. Note on his 3Lz+3T too.

Yes, they need to nix butt ugly Euler combos as three jumps, and incentivize +3Lo for that to happen. I want to see that happen, and 4+4 should happen only if they plan to penalize the pre rotated ones we will inevitably get.

But when chen does his rhythm correct he is straight. Yet even when he leans he still makes it most of the time, showing he can do it even when it goes wrong...
 

Sabrina

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Feb 13, 2013
Quads are important for competition but they are responsible for many injuries that occur in FS, I am not at all interested in quintuples. Why? they are even more dangerous than quads. Super quick rotation may give concussions. Bielmann spin in men is not at all natural. I am not at all happy with the way FS has progressed, as it favours super thin athletes, and guess how you achieve that, if you are not gifted by genes. I love to watch ballet on ice and for that we have John Curry, Emanuel Sandhu. Modern dance is more widespread and even these days we have Jason Brown and Kevin Aymoz. And so it goes...
 

kolyadafan2002

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Quads are important for competition but they are responsible for many injuries that occur in FS, I am not at all interested in quintuples. Why? they are even more dangerous than quads. Super quick rotation may give concussions. Bielmann spin in men is not at all natural. I am not at all happy with the way FS has progressed, as it favours super thin athletes, and guess how you achieve that, if you are not gifted by genes. I love to watch ballet on ice and for that we have John Curry, Emanuel Sandhu. Modern dance is more widespread and even these days we have Jason Brown and Kevin Aymoz. And so it goes...

It doesnt favour super thin athletes. There are advantages and disadvantages to being thin, but the current stereotype is thin so everybody tries to be thin to match it. Alexei yagudin and evgeni plushenko were not thin. Tonya Harding and Midori ito werent.

There are different jump techniques to favour different builds... many dont realise this.
No. This is true:

https://youtu.be/s05PumrMCc8 can you tell me what this says please (I assume you know russian). In this interview I think he is stating how he trained 4+4. Its titled 4T+4C the ultimate combo.
 

plushyfan

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Jun 27, 2012
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In terms of 4 +3+3, 3 skaters have landed it, and 2 of those in international. Kevin Van der Perren did 4T+3T+3T, and Plushenko 4T+3T+3Lo.
Kevin reynolds landed 4S+3T+3Lo in nationals, but this was during his inconsistent years so never internationally materialised.

Plushenko landed in ,4T+3Lo+3Lo in practice https://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm4540630 and 3A-3T-3lo at Torino gala https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYDhGgGeM2E&t=2m25s


edit:
https://youtu.be/s05PumrMCc8 can you tell me what this says please (I assume you know russian). In this interview I think he is stating how he trained 4+4. Its titled 4T+4C the ultimate combo.

No, I don't speak Russian well :) nothing serious he said he jumps 4S and 4Lz at practice, he will try at competition if his health permits.

He landed a 4S in Samara, Russia during the 2004 Russian Cup. He tried 4Lz once at competition in 2001 but he failed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yEvVzq_uyA
 

drivingmissdaisy

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Feb 17, 2010
It doesnt favour super thin athletes. There are advantages and disadvantages to being thin, but the current stereotype is thin so everybody tries to be thin to match it. Alexei yagudin and evgeni plushenko were not thin.

I think it is the case for men. Alexei and Evgeny were strong at their time, but neither did multiple types of quads regularly like we see from Nathan, Yuzuru, Jin, etc. I don't recall Yagudin ever trying a quad other than 4T, and Plushenko I believe tried a non-4T quad once (4Lz with a fall).
 

macy

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Nov 12, 2011
what is it with these new posters in the last few days that are just...unpleasant?
 

kolyadafan2002

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I think it is the case for men. Alexei and Evgeny were strong at their time, but neither did multiple types of quads regularly like we see from Nathan, Yuzuru, Jin, etc. I don't recall Yagudin ever trying a quad other than 4T, and Plushenko I believe tried a non-4T quad once (4Lz with a fall).

Plushenko did 4S clean in competition.
If everybody jumped multiple quads, so would they . Just like brian Joubert. They dont learn more as nobody else is doing more.
 

TallyT

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Apr 23, 2018
Country
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Bielmann spin in men is not at all natural.

I'm not sure what the Bielmann has to do with quads but to be fair, it's not natural in anyone, male or female. A lot of what our idols do is not natural, that's why they can do it and millions can't even in their dreams. I like to think as them as super- rather than un-natural :biggrin: (Michael Christian Martinez's is more gorgeous than most of the ladies', just sayin')

It doesnt favour super thin athletes.

Oh, I think we can't deny that the flashiest jumps, quads and 3A, and having a number of them, does favour a small and slender physique (currently) just as pairs favours big men and tiny ladies, but I can't see why this is a problem. All sports tend to favour one or another at different times, and most of their stars will be like that, and a few outliers will somehow rise above it. That's no more unfair than saying that someone with long fingers is favoured for some musical instruments :laugh: but you still have to have the talent. And even in the small and slender, there's quite a variety, at least on the masculine side.

Yes, there are seemingly cases in the ladies where thin is pursued too far, but that is being argued elsewhere for the 305845976th time. I doubt it's true of the men.

After all, and to be unblushingly shallow and contrary, FS also favours the good-looking - most of 'em are gifted by genes there too - and always has done. I am beginning to wonder if and when the less gifted will start artificially 'achieving' there too... but no one seems to ever complain that that bias is unfair to the less gifted and should be addressed.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
If everybody jumped multiple quads, so would they . Just like brian Joubert. They dont learn more as nobody else is doing more.

With this argument, we could say Katarina Witt could have learned to do the 4Lz, but the only reason she didn't is because she wasn't competing against Anna and Sasha.
 
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