Next technical Achievement - Quad Axel

TallyT · May 27, 2020

I wouldn't be surprised if, apart from Yuzuru and his quest to scare us all to death with the 4A, there are very few 'firsts' in the next year or two as people start seriously looking past the current troubles and towards Beijing. What I've seen of Chen off-ice strikes me (his fans may differ) as pragmatic, even phlegmatic, and while Trusova seems to be more reckless, they both - along with Shoma Uno, the other one mostly mentioned in this thread - must have their eyes firmly fixed on what may be their only or last chance at an OGM then. And the others who are good enough for a first would also have Olympic medals in mind.

Given the real possibility that their trajectories/training will already be in trouble if this season is a mess, and the increasing risks of career-pausing-if-not-stopping injury by going one better in something no one has tried and for good reason... wouldn't it be a trifle, well, just silly?

Skatesocs · May 27, 2020

Not sure why someone thinks thinner frames wouldn't help quad-filled programs?

gehirn said:
Plushenko indeed says he was jumping 4T+4S during practice but did not risk it in competition.

Yeah, that's what I got from that too. Interesting, guess it started a while back.

To actually answer the question of 4A and the thread: I don't think anyone should attempt it before the Olympics happen. The forced off-season can only lead to horrible injuries if someone suddenly tries to land it in competition, whenever the next one will be.

kolyadafan2002 · May 28, 2020

drivingmissdaisy said:
With this argument, we could say Katarina Witt could have learned to do the 4Lz, but the only reason she didn't is because she wasn't competing against Anna and Sasha.

If you can jump one type of quad, then its realistic you can jump other types. Brian joubert jumped 3 quads in one program ( 2 x 4T and 1 x 4S).

We are saying it favours skinny people, but look at alexander samarin etc.

icetug · May 28, 2020

kolyadafan2002 said:
We are saying it favours skinny people, but look at alexander samarin etc.

There are not many "etc." :scratch2:

Ignatov, Fentz, Sadovsky... and that's all of those tall (176+), not really slender and jumping quads quite regularly...

kolyadafan2002 · May 28, 2020

icetug said:
There are not many "etc." Ignatov, Fentz, Sadovsky... and that's all of those tall (176+), not really slender and jumping quads quite regularly...

Plushenko was taller than that. So was (I believe) Andrei Lazukin, Brian Joubert, Brandon Mroz, thomas verner, Kroszhon. Correct me as some names might be wrong, but there are more than people realise.

Skatesocs · May 28, 2020

kolyadafan2002 said:
Plushenko was taller than that. So was (I believe) Andrei Lazukin, Brian Joubert, Brandon Mroz, thomas verner, Kroszhon. Correct me as some names might be wrong, but there are more than people realise.

? None of the people you've named have consistently done 3+ quads in a program. That's much more recent, isn't it? We really only have Fernandez as a bulky man doing 3 quads, and none at all who've done more than that. There were of course attempts before that, you forgot Timothy Goebel, but none of the consistency we see with 3 quads, and 4 was unheard of before 2015. It's not simple to say one reason or the other though. It's a combination of both. But no doubt carrying less bulk across the ice for more than 4 minutes is beneficial towards saving energy.

kolyadafan2002 · May 28, 2020

Skatesocs said:
? None of the people you've named have consistently done 3+ quads in a program. That's much more recent, isn't it? We really only have Fernandez as a bulky man doing 3 quads, and none at all who've done more than that. There were of course attempts before that, you forgot Timothy Goebel, but none of the consistency we see with 3 quads, and 4 was unheard of before 2015. It's not simple to say one reason or the other though. It's a combination of both. But no doubt carrying less bulk across the ice for more than 4 minutes is beneficial towards saving energy.

We were talking about tall quad jumpers. Please read what we were talking about before jumping in with no context.
The "bulky" guys have more powerful muscles, so it evens out. If you are tall, you wont get away with doing the same technique as a small guy. Unfortunately, many try to rather than adapting to use different technique.

Again, please follow the thread in the future.

TallyT · May 28, 2020

Skatesocs said:
? None of the people you've named have consistently done 3+ quads in a program. That's much more recent, isn't it? We really only have Fernandez as a bulky man doing 3 quads, and none at all who've done more than that. There were of course attempts before that, you forgot Timothy Goebel, but none of the consistency we see with 3 quads, and 4 was unheard of before 2015. It's not simple to say one reason or the other though. It's a combination of both. But no doubt carrying less bulk across the ice for more than 4 minutes is beneficial towards saving energy.

Javi wasn't bulky, when you watched him in practice gear he was actually very (and quite probably still is quite) slim, he just seems to go for fuller and/or softer clothes (that La Mancha shirt...)

Skatesocs · May 28, 2020

kolyadafan2002 said:
We were talking about tall quad jumpers. Please read what we were talking about before jumping in with no context.
The "bulky" guys have more powerful muscles, so it evens out. If you are tall, you wont get away with doing the same technique as a small guy. Unfortunately, many try to rather than adapting to use different technique.

Again, please follow the thread in the future.

You're kidding me. Sabrina was talking about quad-filled programs. TallyT brings up "doing quads and many of them". You bring up Joubert doing three. Why then according to you the thread broke off into simply discussing whether tall people can jump more than one quad simply in terms of being able to learn? Everyone has seen them do it. Seems like others disagree with you anyway.

And I'll thank you to not condescend to me. I know how to handle forums. If the mods have a problem, they can speak. You aren't one.

TallyT said:
Javi wasn't bulky, when you watched him in practice gear he was actually very (and quite probably still is quite) slim, he just seems to go for fuller and/or softer clothes (that La Mancha shirt...)

He is not bulky compared to non-skaters, but IMO he's definitely bulkier for a skater? But if he isn't, that just means multi quad programs are exclusive for slimmer frames - at least from what we know.

kolyadafan2002 · May 28, 2020

Skatesocs said:
You're kidding me. Sabrina was talking about quad-filled programs. TallyT brings up "doing quads and many of them". You bring up Joubert doing three. Why then according to you the thread broke off into simply discussing whether tall people can jump more than one quad simply in terms of being able to learn? Everyone has seen them do it. Seems like others disagree with you anyway.

And I'll thank you to not condescend to me. I know how to handle forums. If the mods have a problem, they can speak. You aren't one.

He is not bulky compared to non-skaters, but IMO he's definitely bulkier for a skater? But if he isn't, that just means multi quad programs are exclusive for slimmer frames - at least from what we know.

1) I was replying to somebody who mentioned "Fentz" who can only land 1 quad. I'm sorry you feel the need to be so defensive instead of going up and reading.

2) being bulky isnt a disadvantage in terms of program fitness. I've witnessed bulky people and thin people, and often the "bulky" people could finish programs easier. Granted they could only land 1 quad ("only"), but they still were very fit.

Initially it started a couple pages back with somebody whining about Jason brown being genetically disadvantaged (despite the fact he is neither tall or bulky), and up the page somebody mentioned only a few tall people could land quads, which I replied with a comprehensive list.

Being tall allows you to gain height easier due to "longer levers", but also makes it harder to get efficient rotation. However, if you train rotation you can still end up getting it fine. At 5'11" I have trained quads, and seen no disadvantage compared to people who were 5'7" and less bulky, due to extra height despite them having faster rotation. Granted we both learn different technique to use our frames to best advantage..

StitchMonkey · May 28, 2020

Honestly I am waiting for a double Euler. It seems like a easier way to squeeze in some more points than quad and 4A yet no one has done it.

There was a Russian guy (can't recall the name) a year or so back that landed a triple on the opposite foot so he could do a 3Z as his second jump.... so landing a double loop on the opposing foot should be doable for some, and likely comes with less injury risk.

I mean it is not a lot of points, but medals have been won and lost for less than a point.

kolyadafan2002 · May 28, 2020

StitchMonkey said:
Honestly I am waiting for a double Euler. It seems like a easier way to squeeze in some more points than quad and 4A yet no one has done it.

There was a Russian guy (can't recall the name) a year or so back that landed a triple on the opposite foot so he could do a 3Z as his second jump.... so landing a double loop on the opposing foot should be doable for some, and likely comes with less injury risk.

I mean it is not a lot of points, but medals have been won and lost for less than a point.

If its worth the difference then everybody will do that which is easier. I remember that some people used to try 3Eu (which would be called 3Lo as 3Eu is invalid), but they could only do it off a couple jumps due to the loop takeoff being harder. I've done 2Eu only, and I think thats accessible for the majority of people

lzxnl · May 28, 2020

kolyadafan2002 said:
If its worth the difference then everybody will do that which is easier. I remember that some people used to try 3Eu (which would be called 3Lo as 3Eu is invalid), but they could only do it off a couple jumps due to the loop takeoff being harder. I've done 2Eu only, and I think thats accessible for the majority of people

1Lo = 0.5 points
2Lo = 1.7 points
For a standard triple jump around 5 points, it's only really worth the difference if your GOE doesn't go down by 2, which a bad landing can easily do. Just look at Artur Dmitriev's 3Lz-3F; he landed it, but it looked terrible, so it's never getting high GOE.

kolyadafan2002 · May 28, 2020

lzxnl said:
1Lo = 0.5 points
2Lo = 1.7 points
For a standard triple jump around 5 points, it's only really worth the difference if your GOE doesn't go down by 2, which a bad landing can easily do. Just look at Artur Dmitriev's 3Lz-3F; he landed it, but it looked terrible, so it's never getting high GOE.

I agree. Still a badass thing to do, and make his name much more well known than otherwise.

drivingmissdaisy · May 28, 2020

kolyadafan2002 said:
If you can jump one type of quad, then its realistic you can jump other types. Brian joubert jumped 3 quads in one program ( 2 x 4T and 1 x 4S).

Again, this isn't the case. Many skaters can land a 3T who would never be able to a 3A, or even a 3Lz. It's the same thing with quads.

kolyadafan2002 · May 28, 2020

drivingmissdaisy said:
Again, this isn't the case. Many skaters can land a 3T who would never be able to a 3A, or even a 3Lz. It's the same thing with quads.

In my experience anybody who can land one triple can land up to 3Lz, provided they have stable technique for every triple. Most who land 3T and don't land other triples often are people who don't dedicate enough time to training, or people who quit. 3T isn't physically more challenging than 3S or 3Lo, so if somebody has good technique and dedicate enough time to training with the right coach then they can.

3A is a different kettle of fish to regular triples altogether. It's like 4A is to quads.

denise3lz · May 28, 2020

I saw Petra Burka landing 2S+2S at 1965 Worlds.

It may not something special but I wonder if someone landed one-foot Salchow Frip Lutz Axel / opposite foot Toe-Loop Loop as multiple revolution jumps.

Sabrina · May 28, 2020

StitchMonkey said:
Honestly I am waiting for a double Euler. It seems like a easier way to squeeze in some more points than quad and 4A yet no one has done it.

There was a Russian guy (can't recall the name) a year or so back that landed a triple on the opposite foot so he could do a 3Z as his second jump.... so landing a double loop on the opposing foot should be doable for some, and likely comes with less injury risk.

I guess you talk about Dimitriev (Artur Dimitiev's son)

StitchMonkey · May 28, 2020

lzxnl said:
1Lo = 0.5 points
2Lo = 1.7 points
For a standard triple jump around 5 points, it's only really worth the difference if your GOE doesn't go down by 2, which a bad landing can easily do. Just look at Artur Dmitriev's 3Lz-3F; he landed it, but it looked terrible, so it's never getting high GOE.

The thing is... this could actually be a fist that comes from a younger skater.

Going from a 2T+1Eu+2S to a 2T+2Eu+2S for instance would be a decent point increase and likely is within the ability of up and coming skaters. And it would get them notice. And when they get to seniors, it will be comfortable enough to be worth it.

I admit it likely would not be worth it for a Nathan Chen. But for a Jason Brown, I think the 1.2 would be worth it and i think he could still do it with positive GOE.

Anyway...i wanna see so i am going to keep bringing it up when i get the chance!

drivingmissdaisy · May 28, 2020

kolyadafan2002 said:
In my experience anybody who can land one triple can land up to 3Lz, provided they have stable technique for every triple. Most who land 3T and don't land other triples often are people who don't dedicate enough time to training, or people who quit. 3T isn't physically more challenging than 3S or 3Lo, so if somebody has good technique and dedicate enough time to training with the right coach then they can.

It has been advantageous to have a lutz in ladies skating for a very long time, at least since 1991. If everyone who did triples could do the lutz, we'd have seen every woman do it in the SP under 6.0, and yet it was mostly top contenders who attempted it.

Anyhow, my point was that there are (unfortunately) certain physical builds that lend themselves to performing difficult jumps. I say unfortunately because we now know how many skaters struggle with eating disorders just so they can optimize their bodies for the task, at the expense of their physical and mental wellbeing.

Next technical Achievement - Quad Axel

TallyT

Skatesocs

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada

icetug

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada

Skatesocs

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada

TallyT

Skatesocs

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada

StitchMonkey

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada

lzxnl

kolyadafan2002

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drivingmissdaisy

kolyadafan2002

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denise3lz

Sabrina

StitchMonkey

drivingmissdaisy

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