2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating | Page 83 | Golden Skate

2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

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Thrashergurl

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 27, 2019
These posts get so outrageous sometimes.
Alina wouldn’t have made the World team last season. She wouldn’t have made the podium at Nationals or Europeans. I don’t know where all this craziness comes from now. Both Medvedeva and Tutk had higher scores than Alina- Alina’s skating was declining while the others were improving. Fans can blame motivation or the realization she was no longer Eteri’s #1,2 or 3. But she didn’t have a spectacular season and therefore wasn’t nominated for any awards. It’s odd that fans are upset about it.

One thing about the sport is that it’s always moving forward. If you don’t keep up, you get passed. We’ve seen it time and time again.

Alina is back and motivated. Let’s see how she does this year (if there’s a season). If she really has the quad, she’ll be winning big. Let’s wait and see.
 

zounger

Medalist
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
These posts get so outrageous sometimes.
Alina wouldn’t have made the World team last season. She wouldn’t have made the podium at Nationals or Europeans. I don’t know where all this craziness comes from now. Both Medvedeva and Tutk had higher scores than Alina- Alina’s skating was declining while the others were improving. Fans can blame motivation or the realization she was no longer Eteri’s #1,2 or 3. But she didn’t have a spectacular season and therefore wasn’t nominated for any awards. It’s odd that fans are upset about it.

One thing about the sport is that it’s always moving forward. If you don’t keep up, you get passed. We’ve seen it time and time again.

Alina is back and motivated. Let’s see how she does this year (if there’s a season). If she really has the quad, she’ll be winning big. Let’s wait and see.

It doesn't work like this and you know it. If one of Anna, Aliona, Alexandra let's say got injured. Who is next o make the team? You say Medvedeva should have or Tuktamysheva. I would say why not and Zagitova. None of them had a better season than Zagitova neither a better potential. That's why Zagitova said, I don't want any special treatment, choose the next in line. Or even if no one was injured still the coaching council or Rusfed could have chosen someone else as the third member of the team. It's not like it didn't happen in the past. As for the award what they have to do with anything?
 

Scott512

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
It doesn't work like this and you know it. If one of Anna, Aliona, Alexandra let's say got injured. Who is next o make the team? You say Medvedeva should have or Tuktamysheva. I would say why not and Zagitova. None of them had a better season than Zagitova neither a better potential. That's why Zagitova said, I don't want any special treatment, choose the next in line. Or even if no one was injured still the coaching council or Rusfed could have chosen someone else as the third member of the team. It's not like it didn't happen in the past. As for the award what they have to do with anything?

Very fair commentary. Now with Sasha making a very questionable coaching change if she slips up the opening is there for Alina. I still expect Sasha to be very good capable of medaling at any event she enters. But if she struggles Alina is certainly the next in line. The sad thing is we're not going to have a normal season and see things unfold normally. There may not be worlds or Euros this season which would be devastating. Or if they have events like that there may be no fans or very limited crowd..
 

dunffvanstorn

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 20, 2019
It sounds like you have a problem with poor skating skills and lame choreography. What if the skating skills were excellent and the choreography wasn't lame? I don't see how that's the fault of backloading. I think that it gave some room for very interesting mood-shifting programs that now are essentially impossible.

I do have a problem with poor skating skills and lame choreography. I was trained in classical Ballet, how can I not value these things? And I think mood-shifting programs are still very possible. The thing is, whatever, let people do the backloading they want, just don’t give the extra bonus for all the jumps. I think the current rules are mostly fine in terms of backloading.
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
These posts get so outrageous sometimes.
Alina wouldn’t have made the World team last season. She wouldn’t have made the podium at Nationals or Europeans. I don’t know where all this craziness comes from now. Both Medvedeva and Tutk had higher scores than Alina- Alina’s skating was declining while the others were improving. Fans can blame motivation or the realization she was no longer Eteri’s #1,2 or 3. But she didn’t have a spectacular season and therefore wasn’t nominated for any awards. It’s odd that fans are upset about it.

One thing about the sport is that it’s always moving forward. If you don’t keep up, you get passed. We’ve seen it time and time again.

Alina is back and motivated. Let’s see how she does this year (if there’s a season). If she really has the quad, she’ll be winning big. Let’s wait and see.

To some of the claims:

1. Alina's skating was declining:

In fact Alina had higher score both in SP and FP than Zhenya or Liza.
SP:
Alina: 79.60
Evgenia: 76.93
Liza: 75.74
FP:
Alina: 151.15 (plus 154.41 at JO, doesn't count for ISU SB)
Evgenia: 148.83
Liza: 148.29

Yes, Alina had lower total score this season, but it's not about "declining" as not-fans like to say everytime they have the opportunity. Alina's skating was good, there is a difference between declining of skating and lack of motivation. The difference between her and the other two was in fact one result, see section 2. Claim dismissed.

2. Others were improving:

Well, Zhenya improved for the whole 2 points her PB under the new system thanks to one single competition, other results, I'm sorry, were averarage at best to her standards. Calling something improving would require permanent increase of the results. As for Liza, she was also quite far behind her standards, the only competition she got close was the Golden spin of Zagreb. Again, that's not "improving". I'm also not saying this is declining, but calling one good competition with the rest slightly over (or sometimes under) personal standars "improving" is just wishful thinking. They both had one competition with total score higher than Alina's highest total score, not like all the season above. In fact in Zhenya's case she had also one score lower that Alina's worst. Claim two dismissed.

3. But she didn’t have a spectacular season and therefore wasn’t nominated for any awards:

Just read the definition of the "Most Valuable Skater" one more time, please:
"Honors the Single Skater or Pair or Ice Dance Couple who best managed to increase the level of popularity of Figure Skating with their fan base, media attention and sponsor appreciation."

You can easily find that Alina is the most popular skater only behind Yuzu, she is second in such indicators like "searched name", users activity on instagram profile, she constantly wins many popularity competitions not just nationally but internationally and as for the sponsors her pictures are currently practically all over the Asia. Sorry to Papadakis/Cizeron, but they are far from Alina's level in this. Claim dismissed, case closed.
 

Scott512

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
To some of the claims:

1. Alina's skating was declining:

In fact Alina had higer score both in SP and FP than Zhenya or Liza.
SP:
Alina: 79.60
Evgenia: 76.93
Liza: 75.74
FP:
Alina: 151.15 (plus 154.41 at JO,doesn't count for ISU SB)
Evgenia: 148.83
Liza: 148.29

Yes, Alina had lower total score this season, but it's not about "declining" as not-fans like to say everytime they have the opportunity. Alina's skating was good, there is a difference between declining of skating and lack of motivation. The difference between her and the other two was in fact one result, see section 2. Claim dismissed.

2. Others were improving:

Well, Zhenya improved for the whole 2 points her PB under the new system thanks to one single competition, other results, I'm sorry, were averarage at best to her standards. Calling something improving would require permanent increase of the results. As for Liza, she was also quite far behind her standards, the only competition she got close was the Golden spin of Zagreb. Again, that's not "improving". I'm also not saying this is declining, but calling one good competition with the rest slightly over (or sometimes under) personal standars "improving" is just wishful thinking. They both had one competition with total score higher than Alina's highest total score, not like all the season above. In fact in Zhenya's case she had also one score lower that Alina's worst. Claim two dismissed.

3. But she didn’t have a spectacular season and therefore wasn’t nominated for any awards:

Just read the definition of the "Most Valuable Skater" one more time, please:
"Honors the Single Skater or Pair or Ice Dance Couple who best managed to increase the level of popularity of Figure Skating with their fan base, media attention and sponsor appreciation."

You can easily find that Alina is the most popular skater only behind Yuzu, she is second in such indicators like "searched name", users activity on instagram profile, she constantly wins many popularity competitions not just nationally but internationally and as for the sponsors her pictures are currently practically all over the Asia. Sorry to Papadakis/Cizeron, but they are far from Alina's level in this. Claim dismissed, case closed.
It's like you are presenting a legal case against t-gurl. Hard to dispute what you wrote. And for people to keep cheering Liza and Evgenia (I think they are wonderful too) on while saying Alina is in decline is puzxling. I think all three are doing just fine and they should skate as long as they want to. And guess what? They are.
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
I disagree. Last year's World Champion, last season's Olympic champion, last season's most valuable player, is on the same competitive footing with everyone else for the next season.

Weirdly enough, this issue came up in the knock-down, drag-out sport of chess. The reigning champion at the time (Bobby Fischer) refused to defend his championship unless they gave him an automatic tie-break. If the match ended in a draw, he would retain the championship rather than go to overtime. (The international chess federation said, bye Felecia, hello Anatoly Karpov. Years later, Karpov in turn declined to defend his championship in protest against the rules. In the meantime, Gary Kasparov came along, beat Karpov for the title, then quit the International Federation and started up his own International Chess federation in competition. And we think figure skating is full of intrigue.:laugh: )



There are a few sports like that, where you are the champion until a challenger takes it away from you. Boxing, for instance.

But in most sports, no. The football team that won the championship last year is not guaranteed anything the next year. They have to compete in the preliminary rounds and playoffs like everyone else.

Aliona Kostornaia does not automatically get a bye to 2020-21 Europeans just because she won the event in the 2019-2010. There is no guarantee that defending champion Anna Shcherbakova will be invited to Skate America next season.

About keeping the stars in the sport longer for the sake of increasing fan support, that is a laudable goal. But the ISU has painted itself into a corner. The way the scoring rules are now, the younger ladies are going to win and the old time champs are going to lose. I don't think it would help the popularity of the sport to have a two-tier competition, the old guard for the sake of nostalgia and then the skaters who are actually in contention to win.

I think that this is what is behind the talk (nothing but talk so far) about having two programs with different emphasis, tech and artistic. Personally, I don't think this idea will work either. The tech winner will always be able to put up enough "artistry" to win overall, while the artistic winner will never be able to overcome a tech disadvantage.

The bottom line, to me, is that the ISU has created a sport (on the ladies' side) in which young teenagers will always be the top performers. I think that, whether this is a good thing or a bad, that's the reality.

What i'm saying about the other sports is a simple fact. I didn't know i need to explain it. But here you go. In team sports (as soccer or basketball) World Champion always had a free pass for next Worlds. When the number of teams competed in those championships was raised from 16 to 32 in later years, there was no need anymore for a free pass for a current champion, but it still exists in some sports. For Olympic Games, current World and Continental champions have an automatic invite. In track and field, grand prix winner and/or reigning world champion have automatic invite to the Worlds, so we can watch a final even with half of participants from a same country. In Gymnastic more athletes from one country can participate in qualification rounds at that championship, but only two from one country can medal etc etc And it's not me who want to keep skaters more years in the sport, that is one of the main argument of people who want to raise the age limit. I'm just saying that if they really want that, they can propose things which already exists in other sports. I can certainly live with the sport the way it is in last ten years (when i started to watch it frequently).
 

Scott512

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
These posts get so outrageous sometimes.
Alina wouldn’t have made the World team last season. She wouldn’t have made the podium at Nationals or Europeans. I don’t know where all this craziness comes from now. Both Medvedeva and Tutk had higher scores than Alina- Alina’s skating was declining while the others were improving. Fans can blame motivation or the realization she was no longer Eteri’s #1,2 or 3. But she didn’t have a spectacular season and therefore wasn’t nominated for any awards. It’s odd that fans are upset about it.

One thing about the sport is that it’s always moving forward. If you don’t keep up, you get passed. We’ve seen it time and time again.

Alina is back and motivated. Let’s see how she does this year (if there’s a season). If she really has the quad, she’ll be winning big. Let’s wait and see.

Good thought about the possibility of Alina winning big I like that idea too. :) But sadly this season is in real doubt and that worries all of us fans. But someone in my neighborhood tested positive recently for coronavirus. She went into the community pool recently and now that is closed again for the foreseeable future. I tested negatively but had to wait nine days to find out. We are living in scary times. So are these incredible athletes we go back-and-forth with all the time.
 

Scott512

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
I can see why they left her out of the SP for the team event. The SP counts in the team event so much more than the LP since there are 10 teams instead of 5, so risking someone who is known for their inconsistency could’ve potentially put them in a hole that would’ve been hard to get out of. Adelina was very inconsistent that season and throughout her career, although she almost always was able to peak for Russian Nationals, which was a big advantage for her always making the team. Yulia beat her at Euros and GPF, so she earned that spot. Plus, they could only substitute across 2 disciplines - obviously they were gonna sub out V/T, probably the heaviest favorites for Gold, since the pairs event was so soon after the team event. I guess an argument could’ve been made to only have 1 dance team and sub out Yulia for Adelina, but Adelina was not known for her LP consistency at all, so that wouldn’t really make sense. I understand why that did what they did, and it ended up lighting a fire under her to prove the decision makers wrong and have the skates of her life in the individual event. It’s too bad the judging played out the way it did - she would’ve been a deserving bronze medalist if PCS and GOE hadn’t gotten so out of hand.

What i'm saying about the other sports is a simple fact. I didn't know i need to explain it. But here you go. In team sports World Champion always had a free pass for next Worlds. When the number of teams competed in those championships was raised from 16 to 32 in later years, there was no need anymore for a free pass for a current champion, but it still exists in some sports. For Olympic Games, current World and Continental champion have an automatic invite. In track and field, grand prix winner and/or reigning world champion have automatic invite to the Worlds, so we can watch a final even with half of participants from a same country. In Gymnastic more athletes from one country can participate in qualification rounds at that championship, but only two from one country can medal etc etc And it's not me who want to keep skaters more years in the sport, that is one of the main argument of people who want to raise the age limit. I'm just saying that if they really want that, they can propose things which already exists in other sports. I can certainly live with the sport the way it is in last ten years (when i started to watch it).
Great point BV about how the ISU should take a look at what other sports do with offering buys for defending world champions. It’s just so deserving in a sport as tough as figure skating. Yes I said tough and figure skating in the same sentence and that’s the reality of it.
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
It's like you are presenting a legal case against t-gurl. Hard to dispute what you wrote. And for people to keep cheering Liza and Evgenia (I think they are wonderful too) on while saying Alina is in decline is puzxling. I think all three are doing just fine and they should skate as long as they want to. And guess what? They are.

Remember that what we are reading about Alina now is the same in the pale blue as what we've been reading about her before she won the worlds. Just the last year's "remove her from the team for worlds" is replaced by "no awards deserved" or similar crap.
 

lopsilceci

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 20, 2019
Country
Mexico
If a program's unbalanced, penalize that in PCS. IMO getting more TES at the cost of PCS should be perfectly viable a strategy for a skater to choose.

As usual, what it comes down to is ISU's judges' incompetent judging. Rule changes wouldn't even be necessary if they just judged properly.

Could it help to split up the judging panel? So that half the number of judges would be in charge exclusively of GOE, while the other half would judge PCS independently?

It could be easier for the judges to do their jobs properly if they each had less details to focus on rather than keeping a bunch of technical AND artistic factors in mind to judge at the same time.
 

Scott512

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
I can see why they left her out of the SP for the team event. The SP counts in the team event so much more than the LP since there are 10 teams instead of 5, so risking someone who is known for their inconsistency could’ve potentially put them in a hole that would’ve been hard to get out of. Adelina was very inconsistent that season and throughout her career, although she almost always was able to peak for Russian Nationals, which was a big advantage for her always making the team. Yulia beat her at Euros and GPF, so she earned that spot. Plus, they could only substitute across 2 disciplines - obviously they were gonna sub out V/T, probably the heaviest favorites for Gold, since the pairs event was so soon after the team event. I guess an argument could’ve been made to only have 1 dance team and sub out Yulia for Adelina, but Adelina was not known for her LP consistency at all, so that wouldn’t really make sense. I understand why that did what they did, and it ended up lighting a fire under her to prove the decision makers wrong and have the skates of her life in the individual event. It’s too bad the judging played out the way it did - she would’ve been a deserving bronze medalist if PCS and GOE hadn’t gotten so out of hand.

Remember that what we are reading about Alina now is the same in the pale blue as what we've been reading about her before she won the worlds. Just the last year's "remove her from the team for worlds" is replaced by "no awards deserved" or similar crap.
Yeah true.

The great thing about this form is that everyone gets to express their opinion. Disagreements are allowed and fine.

I believe that all of us should be thankful that all three Liza Zhenya and Alina are still skating competitively. With Julia Adelina Elena Polina and Maria retiring so young we should be thrilled all three of these greats are continuing on. These 3 women are breaking the mold of Russian ladies retiring super young. :)
 

cohen-esque

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 27, 2014
Could it help to split up the judging panel? So that half the number of judges would be in charge exclusively of GOE, while the other half would judge PCS independently?

It could be easier for the judges to do their jobs properly if they each had less details to focus on rather than keeping a bunch of technical AND artistic factors in mind to judge at the same time.
They have tried this two or three times with slightly different configurations, and it went nowhere. I think the reason for dropping it one of those time was that the judges complained about being bored.

I think it’s still a good idea, though. The last time they tried it, the PCS and (to a lesser extent) GOE ranges had more disagreement between the judges than normal, which to me seemed like an indication that the judges were actually paying more attention, and we were seeing the scores actually reflect their own differing opinions about what was most valuable.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Oh, those mythical other skaters that were doing fully backloaded programmes like Eteri girls did, I see. Ok. :)

They changed it for all the skaters that were coming along in the younger ranks who would no doubt try to emulate Alina by backloading as many jumps as they were able to.

Every year the ISU tries (and tries and tries) to come up with a set of rules that shapes programs to what they consider to be the ideal. Sometimes the new rules are a little better; sometimes they are a little worse. (Maybe no bonus at all for second half jumps would be better. They tried that, too, for many years. Then they tried something else. Then they tried again. I am not sure that any of the three versions is any better than the others.)

Stop running. No one is chasing you. Stop fighting. No one is fighting you. Eteri skaters are winning everything. That makes us happy, right? God's in his heaven and all's right with the world. :yes:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
What i'm saying about the other sports is a simple fact. I didn't know i need to explain it. But here you go. In team sports (as soccer or basketball) World Champion always had a free pass for next Worlds.
... This right was also granted to the defending champions between 1938 and 2002,but was withdrawn from the 2006 FIFA World Cup onward, requiring the champions to qualify.. Brazil, winners in 2002, were the first defending champions to play qualifying matches.

What am I missing here. The previous champion has to qualify like everyone else.

In the past it was different, but ... ?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Remember that what we are reading about Alina now is the same in the pale blue as what we've been reading about her before she won the worlds. Just the last year's "remove her from the team for worlds" is replaced by "no awards deserved" or similar crap.

Straw man. No one thinks that Alina didn't deserve any of the rewards and honors that she achieved.

I don't see how it is picking on Alina to hold the opinion that Trusova, Kostornaia and Scherbakova have now passed her, (with Valieva, Usacheva,etc., breathing down their necks), and that former champions like Zagitova, Medvedeva, and Tuktamysheva will have a battle on their hands to remain relevant.at the world championship level. To me, that's just reality -- it has nothing to do with who I like or don't like.

But hey! Bring it, ladies! Let the ice decide. :yes:
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Great point BV about how the ISU should take a look at what other sports do with offering buys for defending world champions.

I, for one, would be very interested in such a study. The Baron has informed us that only an idiot doesn't know that in all other sports the champion gets a bye to next year's championship. I was frankly surprised to learn that everyone knows this but me.

For instance, last year's Super Bowl winner does not automatically get to play in next year's Super Bowl. Last year's NBA champion is not guaranteed to make the finals next season. Last year's World Series (baseball) winner is not guaranteed a spot in next year's World Series. Last year's Stanley Cup winner -- next year they they might not even make the playoffs. To me, that seems like fair play -- everyone has an equal chance in spite of reputation or past achievements.

I can think of only a few sports (notably boxing, and as i mentioned, chess) where the champion gets to just sit back and watch the contenders figth each other, with a guaranteed bout for the championship at the end.

I'll keep an open mind, though. ;)
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
And for people to keep cheering Liza and Evgenia (I think they are wonderful too) on while saying Alina is in decline is puzxling.

I don't think that this is puzzling. A person can cheer for one skater but not so much for another. A person can cheer for a skater and at the same time feel that she is not quite as good as she was in the past.

Me? i cheer for Tuktyamysheva. (Why? I don't know -- to me, she is an entertaining performer.) But I don't think that she is going to out-quad Trusova. I do not see anything puzzling or contradictory about that.
 
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AshWagsFan

Edges for days.
Final Flight
Joined
Oct 14, 2017
Country
United-States
I agree with what Mathman is saying.
I'm a huge fan of Alina, and I don't want to see her getting some sort of "bye" to the world championships.

If she skates well enough during the regular season, then she can earn her way onto the world team by whatever criteria Russia uses.
Something tells me that Alina wouldn't want a "free pass" to Worlds either.

This is an interesting topic. Track and field gives the reigning world champion a “bye” to the following world championship, however, they do not remove a spot from the champion’s national team. So, if they gave Alina or NChen a “bye” for example, from winning 2019 worlds, then USA men would have 4 spots, and Russian ladies would have 4 spots for 2021 worlds.

I think it’s a good idea, as it gives more skaters in countries with a lot of depth (such as Russia) the opportunity to compete at the world stage.
 
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