2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

Mathman · Jul 4, 2020

AshWagsFan said:
This is an interesting topic. Track and field gives the reigning world champion a “bye” to the following world championship, however, they do not remove a spot from the champion’s national team.

I tried to look this up, and evidently it is something of hornets nest currently.

https://www.worldathletics.org/comp...revised-qualification-system-for-iaaf-world-a

As I understand it, the International Association tried to revise the rules for the last championship (2019) to make the qualifying standards more uniform for all athletes. But there was a backlash from the athletes, who didn't like the new system, so the Association went back to the old rules and promised to study it some more.

Under the old rules that they went back to, yes, the various world champions get a "wildcard" entry. This includes the reigning world champion, the winner of the "Diamond League," and the champions of various individual tournaments such as the Hammer Throw Challenge and the Race Walk Challenge.

But only one extra athlete can be nominated per country, so if the same country has both the hammer throw winner and the race walk winner, only only gets a free pass. Furthermore each country can only send six athletes total, so the wild card guy can, in some cases, mean that someone else gets kicked off the team.

Every country gets to send at least one athlete even if no meets the qualifying standard.

(By the way, the athletes also complained that the venue was too hot (Qatar), and that there was almost no audience.)

I am not sure if figure skating has anything to learn here.

Baron Vladimir · Jul 4, 2020

Mathman said:
I, for one, would be very interested in such a study. The Baron has informed us that only an idiot doesn't know that in all other sports the champion gets a bye to next year's championship. I was frankly surprised to learn that everyone knows this but me.

For instance, last year's Super Bowl winner does not automatically get to play in next year's Super Bowl. Last year's NBA champion is not guaranteed to make the finals next season. Last year's World Series (baseball) winner is not guaranteed a spot in next year's World Series. Last year's Stanley Cup winner -- next year they they might not even make the playoffs. To me, that seems like fair play -- everyone has an equal chance in spite of reputation or past achievements.

I can think of only a few sports (notably boxing, and as i mentioned, chess) where the champion gets to just sit back and watch the contenders figth each other, with a guaranteed bout for the championship at the end.

I'll keep an open mind, though.

Well, maybe some idiots know how baseball, superbowl, NBA and chess are not really the World/Olympic sports. And to that my post you fabricated relating to soccer, i already explained how that was changed because they raised the number of participants in the competition, in which case the current world champion never had a problem to qualify anyway (it is worth noticing that was a choice made by the world champion, to go through qualification, in order to prepare better for the tournament). But that was about a team sport. In other sports, its not that a country is given an aditional spot, but it is given to one specific individua, who is a World (or grand prix) champion. So, if for example Alina or Nathan choose not to compete, nobody can take their spots. Saying that, i don't know why this is still a topic here, but if you wanna know how things are going on in other sports, just ask me :biggrin:

Scott512 · Jul 4, 2020

Mathman said:
I don't think that this is puzzling. A person can cheer for one skater but not so much for another. A person can cheer for a skater and at the same time feel that she is not quite as good as she was in the past.

Me? i cheer for Tuktyamysheva. (Why? I don't know -- to me, she is an entertaining performer.) But I don't think that she is going to out-quad Trusova. I do not see anything puzzling or contradictory about that.

The point was Liza and evgenia can't be doing so well battling on and Alina is in decline. I'm very pleased they're still there giving it everything they have. Why not?

Scott512 · Jul 4, 2020

AshWagsFan said:
This is an interesting topic. Track and field gives the reigning world champion a “bye” to the following world championship, however, they do not remove a spot from the champion’s national team. So, if they gave Alina or NChen a “bye” for example, from winning 2019 worlds, then USA men would have 4 spots, and Russian ladies would have 4 spots for 2021 worlds.

I think it’s a good idea, as it gives more skaters in countries with a lot of depth (such as Russia) the opportunity to compete at the world stage.

Yes AWF it's a great idea and yes Russia would get a much deserved 4th spot.

Azikin · Jul 5, 2020

Scott512 said:
Yes AWF it's a great idea and yes Russia would get a much deserved 4th spot.

Absolutely. Wish Liza would have been able to defend her gold.

flanker · Jul 5, 2020

Mathman said:
Straw man. No one thinks that Alina didn't deserve any of the rewards and honors that she achieved.

I don't see how it is picking on Alina to hold the opinion that Trusova, Kostornaia and Scherbakova have now passed her, (with Valieva, Usacheva,etc., breathing down their necks), and that former champions like Zagitova, Medvedeva, and Tuktamysheva will have a battle on their hands to remain relevant.at the world championship level. To me, that's just reality -- it has nothing to do with who I like or don't like.

But hey! Bring it, ladies! Let the ice decide. :yes:

Can you give, but truly, can you give an example of me claiming that I in any way deny that " Trusova, Kostornaia and Scherbakova have now passed her"? The last days particular users were persuading us that "it is perfectly logical Alina is not nominated for any award" or "her skating declined (compared to Zhenya/Liza)". I was just responding to such claims and in any of my responses to such claims I in no way used a comparison with the younger skaters, so why are you putting this to my keyboard? Actually that looks like a strawman to me.

If we are talking specifically about the skating awards, then I'm always talking about MVS prize and that I don't understand why Alina wasn't nominated for that, for this prize nothing that is related to the last season has hardly any relevance. Like e.g. Zahra Lari could be nominated for this prize if she would fulfill the criteria about attracting the fans and sponsors, no matter her SB. Though I wasn't talking about it till the comments about how Alina is bad and how she doesn't deserve anything appeared. Probably she also deserves not to be shown on a single frame related to the awards while many skaters who are also not nominated, had lower SB or didn't skate at all were shown to us. So it is both local users sincere joy Alina is not there and portentous ignoring of her from the side of ISU that I'm talking about, not any comparing her to Anna, Aliona or Sasha. Actually I was defending Anna as well, why she is not in the best newcomer category while being stronger than Sasha and You for the whole season.

Mawwerg · Jul 5, 2020

Mathman said:
I am not sure if figure skating has anything to learn here.

They can learn Qatar is not the best place for running open-air figure skating competitions.

JazzUp · Jul 5, 2020

Mathman said:
They changed it for all the skaters that were coming along in the younger ranks who would no doubt try to emulate Alina by backloading as many jumps as they were able to.

Yes, the younger ranks...in Eteri's group

Mathman said:
Stop running. No one is chasing you. Stop fighting. No one is fighting you. Eteri skaters are winning everything. That makes us happy, right? God's in his heaven and all's right with the world. :yes:

I'm not running & fighting - I'm laughing at you and your attempts to avoid acknowledging the obvious :biggrin:

Fluture · Jul 5, 2020

JazzUp said:
Yes, the younger ranks...in Eteri's group

No. Now skaters from all over the world are learning quads due to Tutberidze and Trusova. If the rules hadn‘t been changed they would have attempted to backload their programs instead. It wasn‘t against Eteri (or Alina), it was for the face of the sport and how they didn’t want the majority of programs to be backloaded in a few years time. Alina and Eteri just happened to be the ones to do it first.

Tolstoj · Jul 5, 2020

Fluture said:
No. Now skaters from all over the world are learning quads due to Tutberidze and Trusova. If the rules hadn‘t been changed they would have attempted to backload their programs instead. It wasn‘t against Eteri (or Alina), it was for the face of the sport and how they didn’t want the majority of programs to be backloaded in a few years time. Alina and Eteri just happened to be the ones to do it first.

It's not against Eteri but i think ISU is not okay with how formulaic they get considering originality is a big section of the composition mark in the components, cause it's like exploiting the system and to me it didn't really solve the issue but rather just set the narrative for a another restrinction in 3-4 years, like they'll include Quads in the short so that will be the new take, and then maybe remove them again 4 years after.

I do agree with the mindset behind that rule but not with the solution: for instance i liked some of the backloaded programs, Kanako Murakami's SP from 2013 starting with a steps sequence was very refreshing to watch.

However when all skaters start the programs the same way (like starting with a spin) and share mostly the same layout, it gets tedious.

If you notice now they are literally all going for the 2a/solo jump + solo jump/2a as the very first 2 elements and the backloaded combo in the short. So it is extremely formulaic again, the problem is not fixed.

If i was coaching one of these russian junior girls i'd try to go with something unique in the program, like ending the program with one of the jumps, or going for the most difficult steps sequence, cause it's so hard to stand out especially in Russia and it almost feels like they don't even try or care and if you read the scores you see why.

How can you reward originality when you see 15 skaters in a row doing almost the same layout every single time.

Scott512 · Jul 5, 2020

Azikin said:
Absolutely. Wish Liza would have been able to defend her gold.

Mei too. But I don't just take this as you give defending gold medal winner a spot automatically they have to do minimum qualifications to earn it and I don't remember if Liza fell off completely the next season or not. I know it was a struggle though.

Scott512 · Jul 5, 2020

flanker said:
Can you give, but truly, can you give an example of me claiming that I in any way deny that " Trusova, Kostornaia and Scherbakova have now passed her"? The last days particular users were persuading us that "it is perfectly logical Alina is not nominated for any award" or "her skating declined (compared to Zhenya/Liza)". I was just responding to such claims and in any of my responses to such claims I in no way used a comparison with the younger skaters, so why are you putting this to my keyboard? Actually that looks like a strawman to me.

If we are talking specifically about the skating awards, then I'm always talking about MVS prize and that I don't understand why Alina wasn't nominated for that, for this prize nothing that is related to the last season has hardly any relevance. Like e.g. Zahra Lari could be nominated for this prize if she would fulfill the criteria about attracting the fans and sponsors, no matter her SB. Though I wasn't talking about it till the comments about how Alina is bad and how she doesn't deserve anything. Probably including not to be shown on a single frame related to the awards whiule many skaters who are also not nominated, had lower SB or didn't skate at all were shown to us. So it is both local users sincere joy Alina is not there and portentous ignoring of her from the side of ISU that I'm talking, not any comparing her to Anna, Aliona or Sasha. Actually I was defending Anna as well, why she is not in the best newcomer category while being stronger than Sasha and You for the whole season.

Come on you mean skaters with lower SB than Alina got nominated for ISU awards? The crap Alina has to put up with his Non-Stop.

If Alyiona does not win best newcomer this thing is not on the up-and-up. If there was an award for Quad Queen Sasha wins that. Anna will finish second to aliona again.

Scott512 · Jul 5, 2020

Fluture said:
No. Now skaters from all over the world are learning quads due to Tutberidze and Trusova. If the rules hadn‘t been changed they would have attempted to backload their programs instead. It wasn‘t against Eteri (or Alina), it was for the face of the sport and how they didn’t want the majority of programs to be backloaded in a few years time. Alina and Eteri just happened to be the ones to do it first.

What you say is accurate about quads but not as accurate about backloading.

flanker and I and many others think they targeted EG and AZ the way they are targeted with increasing the age limit.

Do you or anyone here really think if American cutie Alysa Liu and a couple other adorable American girls winning everything at 14 15 and 16 like the Russian girls have for years they would be looking to raise the age limit? Obvious answer is no.

And I'm not so sure other skaters could have done what Alina did with back loading that was hard very hard to pull off. In oother words I don't think that would have spread worldwide as a skating trend in ladies figure skating. If back-loading did pick up some steam in figure skating most ladies would have failed with it and it would have died off quickly. In fact it was so hard to do Alina may have given it up anyway in a year or two after Olympic gold.

Scott512 · Jul 5, 2020

By the way if the Grand Prix season goes bust and Russia does their own internal events as some are speculating I sense there's no Junior season can they have Killa Kamila compete with senior girls in events besides senior Nats?

flanker · Jul 5, 2020

Scott512 said:
By the way if the Grand Prix season goes bust and Russia does their own internal events as some are speculating I sense there's no Junior season can they have Killa Kamila compete with senior girls in events besides senior Nats?

I still hope JGP would take place, the opportunity to see at least one of the Kamila/Daria/Maiia/Adeliya/Sofia squad in Ostrava is very tempting

Jeanie19 · Jul 5, 2020

flanker said:
I still hope JGP would take place, the opportunity to see at least one of the Kamila/Daria/Maiia/Adeliya/Sofia squad in Ostrava is very tempting

I hope it does, and you give us great live reports.

Mathman · Jul 5, 2020

Scott512 said:
Flanker and I and many others think they targeted EG and AZ the way they are targeted with increasing the age limit.

Paranoia. Everyone is after me, help, help.

Do you or anyone here really think if American cutie Alysa Liu and a couple other adorable American girls winning everything at 14 15 and 16 like the Russian girls have for years they would be looking to raise the age limit? Obvious answer is no.

After Tara Lipinski won worlds at 14 and the Olympics at 15 the ISU raised the age limit. Cute little Sasha Cohen got caught by the new rules and was not allowed to compete at senior worlds. No one whined that the ISU hates America.

Thrashergurl · Jul 5, 2020

Y’all must be new to skating. There was plenty of fuss when the young American girls were winning. Michelle Kwan, Tara Lipinski. Sasha Cohen...there was a whole group they called the baby ballerinas. And guess who was known for being bitter and making snide remarks about them? The Russian Maria butryskaya.

Some of us are lucky, because we’ve seen this type of thing happen before. It’s all a cycle. Young Cohen was trying quads, Miki Ando was landing them in competition. The quad craze isn’t new. Kwan had aspirations of landing the 3axel. We never saw an attempt. Meissner landed some in competition.

I will say it’s easier to watch skating without being invested in one particular skater, although it seems most are now invested in the coach and not the actual skater.

But the age issue isn’t something unique to the Russians.

lesnar001 · Jul 5, 2020

Mathman said:
Paranoia. Everyone is after me, help, help.

After Tara Lipinski won worlds at 14 and the Olympics at 15 the ISU raised the age limit. Cute little Sasha Cohen got caught by the new rules and was not allowed to compete at senior worlds. No one whined that the ISU hates America.

Actually, Sasha Cohen was not allowed to compete at Worlds because she finished 6th at Junior Worlds.
Sarah Hughes was allowed to compete at Worlds both in 1999 and 2000 because she finished 2nd at 1999 Worlds.

So there was a path to Senior Worlds for the underage skaters - as long as they performed well at Junior Worlds.
At least that's how I remembered it being reported at the time.

That's also why after 1999 US Nationals, 4th place Sarah went to Worlds, and not 2nd place Naomi Nari Nam.

Mathman · Jul 5, 2020

flanker said:
If we are talking specifically about the skating awards, then I'm always talking about MVS prize and that I don't understand why Alina wasn't nominated for that...

Oh, sorry. Is that what the conversation is about? Those ISU "awards"? I thought the complaint was about people saying that Alina did not deserve her Olympic win or her world title.

I can't speak for Alina, but I'd let the award thing go and take satisfaction in winning the top prizes that the sport has to offer. :rock:

2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

Mathman

Baron Vladimir

Scott512

Scott512

Azikin

flanker

Mawwerg

JazzUp

#янехомяк!

Fluture

Tolstoj

Scott512

Scott512

Scott512

Scott512

flanker

Jeanie19

Mathman

Thrashergurl

lesnar001

Mathman

Similar threads

Connect with us